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Thread: What is the problem & What is your fix?

  1. #26

    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Before I get into my theory I just want to say Granger is one of my all-time favorite Pacers.

    With that being said, I think Granger could be a main factor to why our play has been so poor even when we win. My main argument is that our already slow 2nd unit is even more slow with him. When we had OJ and even S.Hill playing it seemed like the 2nd unit played at a much faster pace. Sure there were a lot of turnovers, OJ had a shooting slump, and S.Hill didn't bring much but the unit as a whole had much more energy. The biggest differences are C.J. and Scola seemed much more efficient without Granger and second unit's energy carried over to the starters. The second unit just seemed much more dynamic without Granger.

    I'm not a great analyst and haven't looked much into the numbers but a quick glance at the records with and without Granger are similar (20-5 without and 20-7 with). The teams we lost to though are a bit different. Without Granger we lost to CHI, POR, OKC, DET, and MIA. With him we've lost to TOR,ATL, PHO (twice), DEN, ORL and DAL.

    With Granger I think we match up better with the teams we need to worry about in the playoffs but we struggle against younger more athletic teams. Based on this I'm not sure we need to change much if anything. Granger will continue to improve, PG will get over the baby mama drama, we'll get some rest, and everything will be great.

    It would be interesting to see a breakdown of team and player stats with and without Granger.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Actually the biggest problem is the Pacers should never had went on and on about getting the first seed. We want, we need to get game 7 in our house...blah, blah, blah. Guess what? By making it such a big deal (though rediculous I know) I keep looking at the Pacers standing against the Heat. Sorry Pacers but you've created this monster and convinced me in your mind if you don't get Home Court against Miami you beleive you're gonig to lose.

    My actual thinking is of course homecourt will help but I don't believe the Pacers have to pack it up and give up if they don't.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Lance's body language, throwing down his arms and such, when he doesn't get the ball when he thinks he should is beyond annoying right now. I cannot imagine how peevish it has to be for his teammates.

    A good long look in the mirror is what these guys need.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  7. #29
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    This team hasn't played well since the end of January when they went on their western road trip. They are only up 2 1/2 games over Miami and Miami is starting to pick things up so these guys need to wake up and get their crap together or they are going to lose home court. I hope someone can get this across to them.

    I think all their issues start and end above the neck. These guys are not doing the things that made them successful early on. I think some of this is due to youth and ego and some of it is because they are mentally exhausted. I hope this all star break will allow them to come back focused and ready to finish strong.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
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  9. #30
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    I think most of us here agree on the primary concerns. Key players shooting poorly & inffecient on offensive end.Too many turnovers. I would also say the defense (while very good) is probably one level below the first 30 games of the season.

    Fixes? I'm not sure.

    To me the offensive system seems pretty simple and not overly sophisticated. Teams are able to anticpate what is coming and can prepare for it even with the limited practice time they have during the regular season. This will only get worse come playoff time. Mid-season is not the time to make big adjustments and given the already high rate of turnovers probably a poor idea.

    Bottom line is PG, Lance & the bench will simply need to take better shots, shoot a higher % and turn the ball over less. Overall the team will need to win in the playoffs by regaining it's best defensive effort, rebounding margin & by pounding it inside.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 02-13-2014 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Keep winning basketball games at a 75% win rate. Profit.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  11. #32
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    His signing and presence has just destroyed the Pacer swagger...It's Andrews fault!

    /green
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 02-13-2014 at 10:15 AM.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  12. #33
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Too much pick and roll. Not enough elbow entry passes to Roy and West. Not enough screens on the block for Roy and West. Too much Iso at the top of the key where help can come easier.

    Play inside out with David mostly. Have Lance post up on smaller guards. Move Paul off staggered screens. Force the defense to cover the whole half-court. Have George Hill initiate more. When Roy is fronted, move to a hi-lo with West.

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  14. #34

    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    I have my doubts about playing more players at this point in the season. Last year the complaint was platooning the squads. The big push this season,IMO, is to make Lance a more dominant ball handler/facilitator. We've done that, and at times it is close to great, at other times it gets out of control. Lance approaching double figure assists every game is countered by his averaging 4-5 turnovers, a lot of them totally unnecessary and through no defensive pressure at all. Behind the back, between the leg, and no look passes are nice weapons when under control. My fix is the same as a lot of others, 1. Stop the yo-yo dribbling while going nowhere. 2. Go back to the inside outside play. 3. Start the offense sooner in the clock.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    We are 12-5 since January 10, and that includes a tough Western road trip. Granted we have definitely looked sloppy at times, like last night, but the fact that a 12-5 record over a a month + is considered a slump tells you just how great this team is.

    My main concern with the team is that we have given PG and Lance a bit too much freedom on offense. I'm as big of a fan of those guys as anyone and I hope that they play side by side for a long time, but our offense needs to be a bit more balanced. They had 33 combined shots last night (10-33 yuck) while West and Hibbert only had a combined 18. That just shouldn't happen, particularly when Lance and PG are shooting garbage percentages. I still think that this team is at it's best when we work from the inside out. We need to establish Hibbert and West early, make defenses respect them, and then work our way outside to Lance and PG. I don't like when the opposite happens, which is when PG and Lance take a bunch of time off of the clock or force a bad shot. West has easily been this team's best player over the last month and we need to make him the focus of the offense right now. Teams simply cannot handle him when he's hot.

    In some ways, we are just a victim of our own success. We were one game away from the Finals last year. Then we started this season on an absolute tear and have just bulldozed teams left and right. Throughout that time, all these guys have heard is how great they are. Everyone has told PG that he is a superstar and everyone has told Lance that he is an up and coming star. This definitely goes to their heads a bit, as it would to anyone who is just 23. These guys are just on top of the world right now. From the team's perspective, they are just waiting for that series against Miami. After Game 7 last year, our entire existence has revolved around that inevitable rematch with Miami. We know that no one else in the East can eliminate us in a series. Thus, I think that we probably get just a little bored sometimes because we feel we've proven ourselves as an elite team and we just want to start that Miami series.

    I think we will be fine after the all star break. Other elite teams have been losing to some bad teams lately. You aren't 40-12 unless you are a really freaking good team. Every team goes through a slump at times. The problem with our historic start is that it allowed people to have unrealistic expectations as if we were the 1996 Bulls. This team is great, but they aren't perfect.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 02-13-2014 at 05:52 PM.

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  17. #36
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We are 12-5 since January 10, and that includes a tough Western road trip. Granted we have definitely looked sloppy at times, like last night, but the fact that a 12-5 record over a a month + is considered a slump tells you just how great this team is.

    My main concern with the team is that we have given PG and Lance a bit too much freedom on offense. I'm as big of a fan of those guys as anyone and I hope that they play side by side for a long time, but our offense needs to be a bit more balanced. They had 33 combined shots last night (10-33 yuck) while West and Hibbert only had a combined 18. That just shouldn't happen, particularly when Lance and PG are shooting garbage percentages. I still think that this team is at it's best when we work from the inside out. We need to establish Hibbert and West early, make defenses respect them, and then work our way outside to Lance and PG. I don't like when the opposite happens, which is when PG and Lance take a bunch of time off of the clock or force a bad shot. West has easily been this team's best player over the last month and we need to make him the focus of the offense right now. Teams simply cannot handle him when he's hot.

    In some ways, we are just a victim of our own success. We were one game away from the Finals last year. Then we started this season on an absolute tear and have just bulldozed teams left and right. Throughout that time, all these guys have heard is how great they are. Everyone has told PG that he is a superstar and everyone has told Lance that he is an up and coming star. This definitely goes to their heads a bit, as it would to anyone who is just 23. These guys are just on top of the world right now. From the team's perspective, they are just waiting for that series against Miami. After Game 7 last year, our entire existence has resolved that inevitable rematch with Miami. We know that no one else in the East can eliminate us in a series. Thus, I think that we probably get just a little bored sometimes because we feel we've proven ourselves as an elite team and we just want to start that Miami series.

    I think we will be fine after the all star break. Other elite teams have been losing to some bad teams lately. You aren't 40-12 unless you are a really freaking good team. Every team goes through a slump at times. The problem with our historic start is that it allowed people to have unrealistic expectations as if we were the 1996 Bulls. This team is great, but they aren't perfect.
    I think we've gone away from allowing GH to initiate the offense more. Lance and PG are both good off the ball (Paul with his shooting, Lance with his cutting) and we don't utilize that enough at all. Between that and the lack of touches inside to West and Roy that you alluded to, our offense has become ISO-centric. Not a good formula for our roster.

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  19. #37
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    I think it is mostly a matter of focus, and I think we need to kick players back into thinking about what they are doing in the context of the game instead of thinking about what they are doing in context of their stats or their status in the NBA.

    I'd start by imposing an escalating fine every time someone whines to the refs. EVERY time, "justified" or not. These guys are adults and can spend their money how they choose, but it might just make them think twice about whining constantly.

    I'd next give David West free rein in regards to talking to teammates about attitude. He constantly seems to be the guy who has everybody's respect and (in spite of our image of him) can keep teammates on key as well as get into it with them when they screw up. Vogel can only say so much to motivate guys because he is not on the court with them.

    I'd finally lock the coaching staff into a room for 3 days with films of every game for the season and have them try to develop some new looks for the offense. This will produce a few losses when first introduced because there won't be a training camp to get it all together, but I think defenses have figured out what we are doing now and have come up with ways around it. In particular, I think I'd take every diagram of the play where Roy gets the ball in the post and has to wait until the cutter comes around across the baseline before he can move and BURNINATE THEM.
    BillS

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  21. #38
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    I think it's a lack of focus. They aren't sticking to fundamentals. They're trying to be cute on offense, taking gambles on defense. This team is good enough that they don't need to do either one. On offense they aren't moving the ball around cleanly or enough, not sharing or conversely, over-sharing, and not making the right basketball play. They aren't being careful with the ball. Carelessness.

    On defense, they'll play a team straight-up nicely and then someone will take a gamble, overplay, and voila --- breakdown.

    It's all just lack of focus. It's too many of our young guys riding high after playing very good, correct ball to start the season, and now they're resting on their laurels a bit and hamming it up, being cute. I know its' fun, but save that for the off-season. Right now, play correct ball.

    The whining to the refs, to me, is a sign of immaturity. Old vets don't do that. PG and Lance are pretty terrible about it. I realize they are still very young... but man this year they could take it all if they knuckle down and move past the immature stuff. They could win it all. They have to play beyond their years. I know they're only 23 years old... they need to act like they're 30.

    I don't blame fatigue because that should absolutely not be a reason. They are only halfway through the season. Fatigue, either mental or physical, is a sign that they aren't preparing properly. If they are physically tired, they need to work on their conditioning. If they are mentally tired, they need to stop all the extracurricular BS that drains you and focus on what got them here --- basketball.

    I'm not necessarily panicking. I think Vogel and Co. will whip them into shape... but I definitely notice a decrease in quality of play over the past month.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  23. #39
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Gotta go 22-8 to break the franchise record. I think we'll do it. If not, 20-10 to finish with 60 wins.

    Schedule looks pretty light the rest of the way ... not too many road games against good teams

    Games that look intimidating:

    @ HOU
    @ DAL
    @ MEM
    vs SA
    vs MIA
    @MIA
    vs OKC

    I think we'll win 2/3 of those home games. Probably split the road games ... That's 3 losses there. We'll probably have another 3 random losses or so as well. Keeping it to 8 losses or less seems reasonable.
    Last edited by pacers_heath; 02-13-2014 at 01:59 PM.
    Bring Danny off the bench

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  25. #40
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    problem: lack of frontcourt depth, ian mahinmi is horrible

    solution: andrew bynum
    Bring Danny off the bench

  26. #41
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Part of what made PG so effective as he was emerging as an All-star was that he didn't force his shots- he found open looks playing through the offense and his shots were a product of having a formidable offensive weapon at each position on the floor. Even with the first unit he is trying to create shots for himself and taking tougher shots. Part of it is the defense keying on Paul, but Paul is also playing into it by forcing shots when he doesn't have to.

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  28. #42
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    sorry...

    problem?

    Total suxage on this roster (except Lance)

    fix?

    Trade everyone (except Lance) for Tacos and Dunkin' Donuts.

    Seriously? Use the up and down performances up and down the lineup to sell offensive diversification. PG not falling? GH/DWest PnP. Roy is required to take 4 hooks in the first 15 mins. Based on results, he shoots 0 or at least 4 more for the ame. Lance gets 2 opportunities to gallop out of control on a 1 on 4 break. Based on results, the reins get tightened or we are all along for the ride.

    and so on.

    I had to leave during the 3rd qtr to go get another Sun King at their stand because I couldn't take it any more. PG continues throwing it up or not finishing on so many breaks without result, when the DWest PnP, which had more success not only last night but at a 70% clip in the previous 2 weeks was left wanting.

    Mark Jackson is shaking his head somewhere in America. Everybody is an option and does what the do best. He would put the ball in your hands where you wanted it, if you didn't have it going...

    next.

    We can be pretty stubborn/predictable at times and can be slow to try someone else.
    Last edited by seeker80; 02-13-2014 at 02:29 PM. Reason: remove duplicate

  29. #43
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Gotta go 22-8 to break the franchise record. I think we'll do it. If not, 20-10 to finish with 60 wins.

    Schedule looks pretty light the rest of the way ... not too many road games against good teams

    Games that look intimidating:

    @ HOU
    @ DAL
    @ MEM
    vs SA
    vs MIA
    @MIA
    vs OKC

    I think we'll win 2/3 of those home games. Probably split the road games ... That's 3 losses there. We'll probably have another 3 random losses or so as well. Keeping it to 8 losses or less seems reasonable.

    The tough part of the schedule is March and it isn't who we play, it is how many games we play. We only have 1 time where there are two days between games. That is tough and more like the season two years ago when there was a lockout

  30. #44
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Look has our recent play been disappointing sure, but we are still a hell of a team. Are we the best team in the league right now given our current play? No, but we are still one of them, and currently in a great position.

    The reason we are not the best team in the league right now like we we're at the beginning of the year is because the MVP version of Paul George has gone MIA. Every NBA fan is well aware of the difficulties of winning a title without a superstar it's almost like every year in the playoffs we have to get reminded of that. This team had one at the beginning of the year in Paul George, and we basically just have to patiently wait till Superstar Paul George comes back. We have to hope that this is just a lull in the season for him and that at some point we will consistently start seeing Superstar George again.
    Last edited by VideoVandal; 02-13-2014 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    As much as I'd like to rag on them for the Mavs loss, I won't because 40-12 is still an incredible record and I don't see anyone else doing much better around the league.

    However, I will say that these past 2 losses are exactly what they needed - a humbling. Going into the break not playing well should hopefully cause them to reflect on what they can do to play with some consistency and urgency. The All-Star break is coming at a perfect time. They'll get some rest, PG will hopefully win the dunk contest and play well in the game (which will boost his confidence), and they'll come back together with several days for practice and get refocused on the stretch run.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  33. #46
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by VideoVandal View Post
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    Look has our recent play been disappointing sure, but we are still a hell of a team. Are we the best team in the league right now given our current play? No, but we are still one of them, and currently in a great position.

    The reason we are not the best team in the league right now like we we're at the beginning of the year is because the MVP version of Paul George has gone MIA. Every NBA fan is well aware of the difficulties of winning a title without a superstar it's almost like every year in the playoffs we have to get reminded of that. This team had one at the beginning of the year in Paul George, and we basically just have to patiently wait till Superstar Paul George comes back. We have to hope that this is just a lull in the season for him and that at some point we will consistently start seeing Superstar George again.

    We need a Superstar Paul George to win a championship, true, but this team has so many options that we don't need him jacking up a ton of bad shots when he is cold. You definitely want to give your superstar freedom to pull the trigger on offense, no doubt about that, but this team is just way too stacked to bee too dependent on one player. Some of Paul's shot selection recently has been pretty poor. Drive to the basket, force some hideous junk off the rim, and then complain to the refs when it doesn't go in. He also is sometimes prone to shoot long jumpers too early in the shot clock.

    6-18, 4-21, 5-17, 7-19, 6-16, 5-23, 4-17: Those are the FGM-A's in 7 of his last 10 games. Look, I'm a huge fan of the guy and he is a phenomenally great player, but he's just forced too much lately. He played better at the beginning of the season when he played more within the parameters of our great team. But lately it seems as though he has abandoned playing within the parameters of the team and instead has shifted to trying to take over by himself. Lance too. These two guys are great and I'm glad we have them, but we really do need to take a bit of a step back and balance the offense out a bit.

  34. #47

    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The tough part of the schedule is March and it isn't who we play, it is how many games we play. We only have 1 time where there are two days between games. That is tough and more like the season two years ago when there was a lockout
    I think we win in Dallas and Houston. Memphis too. We win at home vs Miami. Refs won't let us get one on their floor. At home vs OKC, depends on if Westbrook is back by then. SA not worried about.

  35. #48
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We need a Superstar Paul George to win a championship, true, but this team has so many options that we don't need him jacking up a ton of bad shots when he is cold. You definitely want to give your superstar freedom to pull the trigger on offense, no doubt about that, but this team is just way too stacked to bee too dependent on one player. Some of Paul's shot selection recently has been pretty poor. Drive to the basket, force some hideous junk off the rim, and then complain to the refs when it doesn't go in. He also is sometimes prone to shoot long jumpers too early in the shot clock.

    6-18, 4-21, 5-17, 7-19, 6-16, 5-23, 4-17: Those are the FGM-A's in 7 of his last 10 games. Look, I'm a huge fan of the guy and he is a phenomenally great player, but he's just forced too much lately. He played better at the beginning of the season when he played more within the parameters of our great team. But lately it seems as though he has abandoned playing within the parameters of the team and instead has shifted to trying to take over by himself. Lance too. These two guys are great and I'm glad we have them, but we really do need to take a bit of a step back and balance the offense out a bit.
    I 100% agree with you. Me asking for Superstar Paul George to reemerge is not me advocating we keep watching hero ball Paul George and hope that the hero ball starts working. I think he has gone about handling his recent slump very poorly. Instead of just taking good shots and letting the offense come to him to get himself going. His slump has had the adverse effect and because of it he's dug himself deeper into a slump. He's gone the route of being overly aggressive on offense to try to get himself going which has lead to very poor shot selection and a ton of misses.

    I agree we do not need Superstar Paul George against probably 70 percent of this league with our balanced starting 5 we can still win a lot of games without ever seeing the MVP Paul George reemerge. I am merely saying people are acting like this there is something wrong with this team now, and the truth is not much is different now from the beginning of the year when I think we were hands down the best team in the league. Almost everybody on the roster is playing either the same if not better (David West, George Hill) right now than when we were at our best. The only ones that are playing worse right now than the beginning of the year are Paul George and Luis Scola.

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  37. #49

    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    Hibbert- STOP PLAYING LIKE A *****! You have GOT to start playing big! There's no excuse he shouldnt average a double-double! Do he not realize they're gonna tell Oden to bring it to him? And If he gets dominated, they're gonna expose him.

    Hill...for the love of God try to be more aggressive like you were..hell, HALF of that!

    Lance... Calm the hell down.

    PG..pg..pg.pg...your superstar title is revoked until you play like one on a consistent basis. TAKE SMARTER SHOT! DRIVE TO THE RIM..AND DON'T ***** TO THE REFS, TRY TO SCORE!

    West...we're cool.

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  39. #50
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the problem & What is your fix?

    The problem might be that Vogel's style has run its course. We know the players own the locker room. But no one player is really the boss. You add Bynum to the locker room and whatever chaos that was under control, may well get out of control. I don't think it takes much.

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