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Thread: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    If that is the case, I would highly recommend not using an expletive (or placeholder for one) and abstain from using all capitals on words in the thread title. I believe that is automatically going to rub people the wrong way before they even read the first post.
    well u shouldn't judge a book by its cover then.

    I love the f****** BnG. not gonna sugarcoat it and pretend the offense doesn't have issues it needs to improve on.

    Again, im not John Wooden but passing is about as fundamental as it gets. I find it hard to believe its the system when Coach Vogel emphatically emphasizes sharing the basketball.


    ** fyi - despite the Colts regular season dominance it was only when the defense (teams Achilles for years) got right did the team capitalize on its talent and win the Lombardi.
    Last edited by PacersPride; 02-09-2014 at 03:28 PM.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    well u shouldn't judge a book by its cover then.
    Like I said, it was just a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. I just believe that if you were looking to have a legitimate conversation about our offense, choosing a different title may have been helpful in achieving your goal.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Question: How many points does it take to win a basketball game ?

    Answer: One more than the opponent.


    Enough said.
    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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  6. #54

    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Seems like one of the main issues that could hold us back from winning a title should be okay to discuss. What's the problem?


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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Seems like one of the main issues that could hold us back from winning a title should be okay to discuss. What's the problem?

    Honestly, kinda beating a dead horse at this point. Yes?
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    I don't believe we run plays the way the Coach designs them. This team is built to move the ball. We have speed in the back court, really good hands(except Ian) in the front court and pretty good passers at all positions. However our 2 main ball handlers, Lance and Paul spend too much time dribbling and then try to force the ball to the paint when they run out of time. IMO, we need to pass the ball a lot more than we dribble and we need to get into our plays much earlier in the clock. Especially when we are feeding Roy in the post, we should know that he has problems establishing and keeping position in the paint, making him wait and try to hold his position takes away too much of his scoring opportunities. Move the ball, move the defense, get open shots. Fixed.
    Can I offer an alternative explanation? The players are running the plays that are called. But Frank is experimenting with the choices he has offensively to find out what things are most likely to work best come playoff time. The Pacers have 8 [or 9 counting Bynum] guys that can be a primary offensive option. But picking and choosing which of those options work best is taking some trial and error.

    Both Paul and Lance are young. And as you correctly noted, they have a tendency to 'dance' with the ball instead of making the quick decisions that guys like David and Hill make. That, I'm assuming, is a factor of their age and experience. So they are getting a chance to run the offense thru them, with the stagnation that happens sometimes. But with this experience, their ability to run the offense during the playoffs will be improved. Their tendency to make stupid turnovers will go down with more experience. Or, if they do not get better at the things you posted about, their chances to run the offense during the playoffs will be reduced.

    Danny, David, Hill, Roy, CJ, Andrew and Luis are basically finished products. Frank knows what they do and what they don't do. There is some learning curve with CJ and Luis because they are new guys, but still, there are not any real surprises about their games. They can be integrated into a playoff offense pretty much any time. But Lance and Paul are still blank slates for the most part. Both of them are carrying increased responsibilities offensively this year and Frank needs to let them play and see what they can do and what they cannot do.

    Which leads me to Danny and now Bynum. Both coming off injuries. Both very skilled two way players. Both used to be capable of being the primary scoring option. Both transitioning to secondary roles, at least for now. The Pacers need to determine how healthy they are and what they are still able to do. That is going to take some experimenting also. The truth about their ability to contribute will be determined late in the season. To be a little hyperbolic, they could be either your best players or worst players in the rotation, depending on how their knee injuries heal or not. But the only way to find that out is to let them get some minutes and see what happens.

    JMO, but I think the OP'ers point is more than anything else. The Pacers are a team trying to integrate two young guys, two new rotation guys and a couple of injured guys into a new offense. They are trying to find out what works best and what doesn't work that well. That takes some time. I expect as the season wears down, you will see less giving the ball to Lance or Paul and having them create and more PNR with West and Hill. Sometime having too many good players is in finding out what works best.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I think you need to clarify this UB. We are in the bottom 37th percentile for offensive efficiency (because of those deficiencies) but there is nothing wrong with the offense? PP, you really should have made this a poll, because it would be eye-opening to see how many think we actually have a good offense.

    And yes, we are not a good passing team overall, nor are our individual players good passers (excluding a select few for select stretches).

    Lastly, for those who aren't worried (and also have high expectations), here is a list of NBA champions and their corresponding rank in offensive efficiency: Miami (1st) in 2013; Miami (6th) in 2012; Dallas (8th) in 2011; Lakers (11th) in 2010; Lakers (3rd) in 2009; Boston (5th) in 2008; San Antonio (5th) in 2007; Miami (7th) in 2006; San Antonio (8th) in 2005; Detroit (19th) in 2004; and San Antonio (11th) in 2003. Maybe we're the Pistons setting another historical precedent, but I don't know how many would take that bet.


    Our offensive talent isn't the best. But I think we maximize what we have

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Our offensive talent isn't the best. But I think we maximize what we have
    4 all star level players and George Hill... 3 former all star level players on the bench and its a talent issue we cannot pass the ball?

    I get that Coach may be experimenting but the turnover issue has been present for two seasons + Bulls first round series exit.


    Its slighty amusing some seem to believe 23 rd in the league assists to turnover is the best this team is capable of offensively. has nothing to do with fg attempts in a game or slow tempo offense. were not a very good passing team.


    its a concensus theme from those who contributed more than 2c.


    Got what I was looking for from the thread. Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    We can pass the ball just fine. It just comes down to execution.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Our offensive talent isn't the best. But I think we maximize what we have
    This is an interesting position that I'm not sure many have. I am with Hicks that I don't know what to do about it at this point. But if your idea UB is that the turnovers are built into the talent, I'm mostly in agreement though not sure the overall outcome is something that cannot be adjusted for. Considering our standing as the best defensive team, it seems like you are at peace with everything and just waiting for the chips to fall as they may. Very zen position that I am not quite at yet.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    We are fine.
    Wonder how many of the several that thanked the comment still carry the same tune. Posted this about a month back and felt the wrath of many. Now the defense the Pacers relied is gone MIA as well.

    I don't think our issues on offense pertain to passing as much any longer. the offense is simply stale and we got no shooters except Cope who rides the pine.


    I still believe this team will advance to the NBA Finals but I don't think we can beat the WC teams. Our record is a bit misleading in the EC. The Heat are defending champs, and have not had DWade most the season.

    Coach Vogel is going to have to come up with a solution to our offensive inefficiencies otherwise a good record is all this team is going to have to show for this season.

    Where is George Hill and Roy Hibbert. These guys need to become more consistent. Don't like saying it but I believe this is what Roy is offensively. if he opts out for 18M or whatnot he can walk. I like GHILL, big fan but excluding he is from Indiana, his production on the court has not been worthy of an 8M a year contract.

    I hope this team has another Gear for the playoffs,, to beat the Heat and WC champion, were gonna need a more balanced attack to go the lockdown Defense.

    big fan of Coach Vogel but I do not believe we are maximizing the offensive talent on this roster.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Wonder how many of the several that thanked the comment still carry the same tune.
    If you asked me after the loss to Golden State then I'd carry the same tune. Even after this loss everything seemed perfectly fine. The last 2 games, though, are different. I'm not sure what it is but it seems bad.

    I certainly believe that we're going to be fine and put this behind us but I'm worried at the moment.
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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Getting blown out two games in a row indicates there is a problem. If this team does not respond today, there is clearly a problem that extends beyond basketball. I'm not saying we need to win this game. I'm saying we have to put up a fight.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If you asked me after the loss to Golden State then I'd carry the same tune. Even after this loss everything seemed perfectly fine. The last 2 games, though, are different. I'm not sure what it is but it seems bad.

    I certainly believe that we're going to be fine and put this behind us but I'm worried at the moment.
    Same here. I predict they'll snap out of it sooner or later, but this stretch sucks to watch.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Getting blown out two games in a row indicates there is a problem. If this team does not respond today, there is clearly a problem that extends beyond basketball. I'm not saying we need to win this game. I'm saying we have to put up a fight.
    The b2b vs Charlotte put stress and soreness on PG's back. He admitted so after the game. But we had chances to win both of these games. Cut Charlotte's lead to two in 2nd qtr. Cut Houston's lead to 1 in 3rd qtr. If Vogel had changed the bench rotations and added in more offense in Houston. And started the 2nd quarter in Charlotte with bench mixed with starters, we could've won those games. He needs to stop giving teams the same look off the bench. A bench of Copeland, Butler, Allen, Turner, and Solo would've given Houston some problems with shooting and versatility.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    We are fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
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    We currently have one the best (if not the best) basketball teams in the
    world, are at the top of the NBA standings, and are widely recognised as
    being a top contender for the NBA championship and you're going to sit
    there and ***** about it?

    Unreal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Nothing. This is our offense. We have some defiencies. Is that news?
    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I think you need to clarify this UB. We are in the bottom 37th percentile for offensive efficiency (because of those deficiencies) but there is nothing wrong with the offense? PP, you really should have made this a poll, because it would be eye-opening to see how many think we actually have a good offense.

    And yes, we are not a good passing team overall, nor are our individual players good passers (excluding a select few for select stretches).

    Lastly, for those who aren't worried (and also have high expectations), here is a list of NBA champions and their corresponding rank in offensive efficiency: Miami (1st) in 2013; Miami (6th) in 2012; Dallas (8th) in 2011; Lakers (11th) in 2010; Lakers (3rd) in 2009; Boston (5th) in 2008; San Antonio (5th) in 2007; Miami (7th) in 2006; San Antonio (8th) in 2005; Detroit (19th) in 2004; and San Antonio (11th) in 2003. Maybe we're the Pistons setting another historical precedent, but I don't know how many would take that bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck View Post
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    Question: How many points does it take to win a basketball game ?

    Answer: One more than the opponent.


    Enough said.
    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    JMO, but I think the OP'ers point is more than anything else. The Pacers are a team trying to integrate two young guys, two new rotation guys and a couple of injured guys into a new offense. They are trying to find out what works best and what doesn't work that well. That takes some time. I expect as the season wears down, you will see less giving the ball to Lance or Paul and having them create and more PNR with West and Hill. Sometime having too many good players is in finding out what works best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Our offensive talent isn't the best. But I think we maximize what we have

    posted this thread about 2 months back and got raked across the coals and utterly dismissed by about half the board. felt like it was obvious the pacers offense has been bad for about 2 seasons. lotta of us disregarded and felt danny was the solution. after 2 months of painfully obvious bad basketball now the PD braintrust realizes its a potential issue. the same ones who snickered and posted how dare I be critical of the pacers offense are now some of the same ones fussing up a storm. just find it highly cynical on behalf of some that those claiming our offense was "fine" little over a month ago are just now discovering the clues to how anemic our offensive system and personnel can be for extended periods of time.

    I don't believe stats are the end all be all but A/T ratio seems like one of the very few that is indicative of how well a team performs. unless u got a KD or James Harden we need guys to set each other up and get us open looks.

    Ive heard some say we simply need shooters. This team could have Reginald Wayne Miller at SG and it likely woulnt amount to hill of beans if he cannot get an open look. all our offensive production on the perimerter consists of trying to break players down to get a good look. newsflash Coach Vogel it aint working.

    this season we rank 26th in A/T and last year we were LAST in the league at 30th. Re -signing Lance is not going to improve our offense as much as it is needed. How the hell is it that Chicago a team we very much mirror that has been without DROSE and Deng for most of this season still has a respectable A/T ratio without their mega superstar pg.

    this team has way more talent than Chicago, and offensively are severely underperforming despite all the excuses of how much intensity this team brings defensively


    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...tTurnoverRatio
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...atio/year/2013


    seems like anymore its not just about passing,, more specifically it may be an unwillingness to share the basketball. ive beat this drum over and over, but even if we had shooters on this team we cant get them open looks. hell the only time Cope has had a good look in his limited minutes that were meaningful is predominantly on broken plays. hell seems like anymore that's how we score most efficiently is on a broken play with under 5 seconds on the shot clock.

    we are essentially running with a 3 SG, PF, C approach. Hill has made it known he doesn't consider himself a point. lance and PG cant limit turnovers, and no one on this team can seem to find each other an open shot. Evan Turner has probably been the purest on our roster at actually setting guys up for a good look.

    really, would it matter if Reggie himself found the fountain of youth and came back to this team in his prime? Reg could never break down a defender to get a good look, he relied on screens and pinpoint passing. the ball movement is terrible. the turnovers are awful. and setting players up for each other via assists is totally non existent.

    I believe its time that Larry Legend consider finding this team a traditional floor general point guard if one becomes available. we gotta find someone who can limit turnovers and get other teammates open looks. and at the same time fit our defensive smashmouth identity. Rondo would be a godsend but its likely not realistic. it doesn't have to be a big name. a guy like Mark Jackson or Chuncey Billups would be ideal. but hell maybe even a player like shawn Livingston or a jameer miller. if lance leaves we may have no choice but to move G Hill to the sg and get this team a guy who can distribute the ball and get into the lane and setup our bigs better than we have done thus far.

    2 months of terrible basketball, and 2 years of bad offensive basketball (danny injury excuse is no longer valid) and the ones busting my *** for posting this theard a month or so back are finally realizing the obvious, our offense is far from fine,,, unless of course were playing the scrubs of the JV Eastern Conference,, then i would have actually agreed.

    Thankfully, I don't believe LEGEND is oblivious to the offensive inefficiencies and if this team doenst get it done I firmly believe heads are going to roll this offseason. If guys had their feelings hurt this season due to moves LEGEND made, they better get ready to find a shoulder to cry on this upcoming offseason if this team doesn't find a way to get it done and advance to the NBA Finals.

    For as much hell as i caught over this thread i never once doubted this team will not reach the NBA Finals. we got posters giving up and everything else under the sun on this team. the offense is bad and to be brutally honest has almost become as painful to watch as the JOB Obrien days where James Posey was our stretch pf hoisting up 3's every chance we got. with that said no way in hell have i given up on this team.

    we just gotta figure out a way to get each other good looks instead of forced jump shots. if this teams got issues inside the locker room, then its time any frustration, anger, or hostility be redirected in a healthy way. and tomorrow the team we are facing gives us a great opportunity to do just that. if this team cannot rally around each other vs the Heat then were up a creek without a paddle and like i stated before heads are gonna roll this offseason.

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  23. #67

    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Until CJ returns, I'd like to see a new five man rotation.

    Scola
    Copeland
    LaVoy
    Solo
    Evan




    Keep Ian and Sloan off the floor. They're horrible!

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    Member Millertime3131's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    This is what happens when you dont have a point guard or a Superstar who can run the offense...

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    or How bout the fact that the highest paid player on the team has become useless on that end of the court....

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    This is what happens when you dont have a point guard or a Superstar who can run the offense...
    I blame the Coach for letting the offense be run like this then.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I blame the Coach for letting the offense be run like this then.
    I agree with this as well you have to use the talent that you have and build an offense and make adjustments around that....

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Until CJ returns, I'd like to see a new five man rotation.

    Scola
    Copeland
    LaVoy
    Solo
    Evan




    Keep Ian and Sloan off the floor. They're horrible!
    seems like now that bynums out indefinitely mahinmis went back to playing his typical ho hum way. im with ya.. i think lavoy allen can bring the same D and a little more O. but who are we kidding, Vogels not about to make significant changes to the rotations. which may be for the best with only 10 games games left ???

    im still in somewhat disbelief he got Cope some burn. gonna give him credit.. pulling lance from the second unit was a must imo. i know butler is overlooked but that guy has prob been our best 3 pt shooter all season, so its tuff not seeing him get the mins off the bench as well.

  31. #73

    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Forgot about Rasual. Problem is though, Cope and Rasual can't find a rythm because they don't get enough minutes.

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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    I agree with this as well you have to use the talent that you have and build an offense and make adjustments around that....
    But don't the Players have to adjust as well to fit the offensive scheme that the Coach has implemented?

    I agree with with what you are saying when we are at Training Camp....it is the responsibility of the Coach to setup an offense that best fits the Players talent.

    This isn't like a scenario where the offense didn't worked perfectly fine in the beginning of the season and the Coach has been sticking with it regardless of how badly it has worked.....the offense worked well enough to win games....but now, it works like garbage.

    Despite Vogel stubbornly continuing to stick to certain principles in how the offense is run ( such as playing Scola regardless of how injured he was or how bad it was with his Mid-range jumpshot that wasn't falling or making Turner....a really bad 3pt shooter take 3pt shots while standing in the corner waiting for the ball instead of utilizing his mid-range/dribble penetration offensive skills )......but the offense has ( as Nuntius mentioned ) shifted more to an "inside out" to "outside in ( if Hibbert and West are lucky to get the ball ) oriented offense.

    To me, Vogel shares the blame for letting the offense to be run like this.....but I think the Starters....most notably PG24 and Lance...share a larger part of the the blame for continuing to execute the offense like this in the first place.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-25-2014 at 06:12 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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  34. #75
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    Default Re: what the BLEEP is wrong with our OFFENSE?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    or How bout the fact that the highest paid player on the team has become useless on that end of the court....
    I'm not going to give a pass to Hibbert as of late.....but let's be fair here........Hibbert's 8 to 9 FGA a game is not ( entirely ) to blame for the Team's offensive woes. This isn't like Hibbert is taking 16 FGA and is only hitting at a 40%.....that honor goes to PG24 himself.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-25-2014 at 06:06 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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