Too often we don't share the ball, and that's when our offense struggles. When we move the ball around, we score well
Too often we don't share the ball, and that's when our offense struggles. When we move the ball around, we score well
I miss Roy Hibbert
Pacers are slightly improving in that area and hope it continues. With the talent and chemistry this team has I believe the offense is capable of more. Perhaps those are unreasonable expectations.
PacersPride;1784921]Yes, until we hang a BANNER you are correct. I am not going to accept that this team has zero room for improvement. Those of you who disagree and believe this team is as good as it can be can simply post elsewhere if it upsets you that much.
I don't need to post somewhere else. That is what the "ignore" button is for, to shut out pessimistic, ranting people like you.
I expect Roy Hibbert to be more of a force offensively.
I expect PG to produce even when his outside jumper is not falling.. because elite players find a way to score in a multitude of ways.
I expect Hill to not disappear next game.
DWEST BAMF. nuff said.
I expect our second unit to be one of the best in the league and dominate other teams.
Offensively, I believe this team is capable of more.
If your last name isn't Simons, Bird or Vogel, you can expect all you want and no one really cares.
I would rather be the hammer than the nail
They aren't "excuses," they're facts. Anybody who knows basketball knows Kobe isn't the defender he was 5 or 6 years ago. Namely because of those "offensive responsibilities" you mentioned.
And you don't know that our offense isn't good enough to win "BANNERS" until we are knocked out of the playoffs. We got to game 7 of the ECF last year with an offense worse than this one. So wait until it's a known fact that our offense isn't good enough before posting it as fact.
Also, nobody cares what your expectations are because they're unrealistic. I expect us to win every game, but I don't start a ranting thread about what must be wrong every time they lose a game. Offense comes and goes. Teams lose games for tons of reasons (scheduling, injuries, off nights, etc.) This team is good enough to win a championship as built. Could it be better? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's broken.
The answer, or at least half of it, isn't an answer most on this board will like. Paul and Lance are the problem. Take the ball out of their hands, put it in West's and Hill's more, and actually run an offense instead of iso's. An offense run through the high post with West, that has ball and player movement is likely to result in an efficient offense.
Just look at the bench. It's offense isn't at its best when they just give the ball to Lance, and say create. It is at its best when there is ball and player movement that often ends with an open shot for Scola, Watson, or Granger. It would be the same with the starters. Put the ball in the hands of those who won't turn it over, have the other players move and set screens, have the players move, and I can alomost guarantee we would see Lance average 10ppg just on back door cuts alone. Paul has let his new contract and stardom go to his head. He thinks he is Lebron, when he isn't. He can be in time, but he first has to get his head out of his ***. Then learn how to pass and dribble. He doesn't play smart, and until he does he is closer to Joe Johnson than Lebron James. While Lance does make a lot of amazing plays, but they are often out of desperation or look for the highlight play. He rarely attacks the rim with a solid plan. Which is a big reason for all of his turnovers. Their play may lead to gaudy numbers, but it simply isn't good efficient basketball.
This team doesn't need to play like Miami or OKC. We don't have just two or three offensively talented players. We have eight, and soon to be nine of them. So the idea of just giving your "star" player the ball and letting them work isn't going to result in a very efficient offense. Most of the blame is on Vogel, but part of it is on the players too. Especially Paul who likes to force things when he isn't playing well offensively, instead of stepping aside and focusing on making an impact in other ways.
I think it's too late to make it much better. If I didn't think it would be a disaster, I wish we'd go to a different offense, more like the Spurs, to get better spacing, movement, screening, and passing. I don't like how stagnant we get on top of the turnovers we commit.
Let me simply ask this then. Are we a mediocre PASSING team? We are currently 21st in assists.
Stop quoting people I have on ignore!
I think you need to clarify this UB. We are in the bottom 37th percentile for offensive efficiency (because of those deficiencies) but there is nothing wrong with the offense? PP, you really should have made this a poll, because it would be eye-opening to see how many think we actually have a good offense.
And yes, we are not a good passing team overall, nor are our individual players good passers (excluding a select few for select stretches).
Lastly, for those who aren't worried (and also have high expectations), here is a list of NBA champions and their corresponding rank in offensive efficiency: Miami (1st) in 2013; Miami (6th) in 2012; Dallas (8th) in 2011; Lakers (11th) in 2010; Lakers (3rd) in 2009; Boston (5th) in 2008; San Antonio (5th) in 2007; Miami (7th) in 2006; San Antonio (8th) in 2005; Detroit (19th) in 2004; and San Antonio (11th) in 2003. Maybe we're the Pistons setting another historical precedent, but I don't know how many would take that bet.
Pacers are 23rd in the NBA in A/T ratio as a TEAM.
May be a primary reason as to why this team is offensively inefficient & believe it has more to do with player execution than it does the offensive system in place.
My take on this team is that they play up to or down to the competition. Its either a sign of a lack of killer instinct or its inexperience. I believe its inexperience. The Pacers seem to coast for first halves and turn it on in the second half when they need to do so. That only works well if the machine is working well. Some nights parts of the machine badly needs oiled or replaced. It slows down miss fires and we lose. The coach is sometimes slow to replace malfunctioning parts and causes it to freeze up.
I believe David, Lance, G. Hill have no problem with the killer instinct part. They embrace the moment with passion when necessary. Roy and P. George are two vital parts of the machine that need removed and oiled once in for proper function. Frank will take Roy out and rest him quite often but he is hesitant, for whatever reason, to pull PG as often as he needs to calm him down, slow him down or rest and refocus him.
Roy needs to attack the rim with a singular thought. To see how far down the basket he can reach holding the ball. He is a little soft yet. When or if he ever gets 'it' look out league. Its a confidence issue with him. But he focuses well in the playoffs.
PG is a great 23 year old player. When he learns to accept what he is given on any particular night, be it scoring, assisting or defending, his upside is huge. I do not believe he yet has become comfortable accepting only just one of the roles and then allowing the others come in the flow of the game. He has a tendency to get frustrated with one of these not going well and then letting it take him out of the others. TO's, complaining, etc.
He will get 'it' one of these days, soon, and when he does, it will be awesome.
Lance has some of the same problems PG has but I believe he is a little farther along the path than Paul is toward knowing when and how to step back and when to assert himself. These two guys are great basketball players. All they lack is maturity right now and that is rapidly approaching.
There is nothing wrong with this team that maturity, experience and practice and great coaching will not cure. Our offense is fine.
So far we are, most games, outscoring our opponents at the buzzer and that is all that matters.
There is legitimate reason for concern. Extended droughts like this team is all too capable of will come at a big cost against elite teams in the playoffs. Turnovers are usually a big part of those droughts so fixing the ball security issues would go a long way towards fixing the offensive concerns.
The Pacers are scoring at a rate of about 4 points a game higher than last season. Real tangible improvement there but for all the improvements in the bench personnel the bench scoring is still very anemic. Granger & Scola need to get more effecient. If that happens I think this team could average 100 plus after the allstar break. Bynum could make the difference too but that is a big question mark.
PG absolutely needs to get it turned around over the next month or so. Not much chance this team wins a championship with the best player shooting in the low 40's for % and turning the ball over at a high rate.
I also believe that just like last year Roy will be a bigger offensive factor in the playoffs. Roy will shine when the game really slows down.
As we have shown flashes of being a nearly elite offensive team, for some reason I can't persuade myself that there is any reason for these offensive droughts than plain out boredom/ laziness. These guys were whooping on people at such a high level at the beginning of the season that they believe these games are going to be much easier than they should, and don't give quite the effort they should.
The Lost Season
Actually, we didn't have a serious turnover issue 2 seasons ago. Our struggles with turnovers began last season. Here's the timeline:
11-12: Tied with Houston at #12 in Turnovers per Possession with a 15% rate -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2012-06-21
12-13: Tied with Houston at #30 in Turnovers per Possession with a 16.4% rate -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2013-06-20
13-14: Tied with Detroit at #21 in Turnovers per Possession with a 15.7% rate -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...per-possession (notice that Indiana is one spot below us with a 15.8% rate)
It is better this year. It still is an issue but it's not as big as it was last year. The good thing is that this is one of the few issues that we have as a team. Yes, it's an important issue but it's our only one. That's why I agree with the guys saying that we are fine. We truly are fine. This is something that we can fix without needing an overhaul.
While we are at it, allow me to show you another timeline:
11-12: Tied with Philadelphia and Brooklyn at #22 with a 47.3 eFG%.
12-13: #22 with a 47.8 eFG%.
13-14: #15 with a 49.6 eFG%.
Our accuracy is improving. When we control our turnovers then we can be a pretty efficient team offensively. We already saw that in last year's playoffs and we have seen it at times this year as well. When we are dialed in our offense can be beautiful. We aren't going to be an offensive juggernaut, of course, but our offense can be good enough in order to help our amazing D go over the top.
We can do it as long as we control the turnovers.
I don't believe we run plays the way the Coach designs them. This team is built to move the ball. We have speed in the back court, really good hands(except Ian) in the front court and pretty good passers at all positions. However our 2 main ball handlers, Lance and Paul spend too much time dribbling and then try to force the ball to the paint when they run out of time. IMO, we need to pass the ball a lot more than we dribble and we need to get into our plays much earlier in the clock. Especially when we are feeding Roy in the post, we should know that he has problems establishing and keeping position in the paint, making him wait and try to hold his position takes away too much of his scoring opportunities. Move the ball, move the defense, get open shots. Fixed.
I got my answer. This team sucks at passing the ball.
Let me state it one more time. We rank 23rd in the league in A/T ratio
Im no John Wooden but with the talent this team has on its roster this stat does not bode well for our chances at raising a Banner.
not gonna walk around w my head up backside pretending this team is fine on the offensive side of the equation.
23rd overall in assists to turnovers... yupp this team is A OK alright.
Colts dominated the regular season for years. How many SuperBowls did that translate into. No one is saying the sky is falling.. made that abundantly clear in my OP. Was simply asking what the root of the issue is in regards to our offense at times stalling out.
Unlike most stats, I find A/T ratio to be one of the very few to actually have some merit. Bird called the team out on the turnovers as well so its not like im pulling this crap outta left field or anytying.
23rd in the nba at A/T. tied w OKC which is basically a one man iso team speaks volumes.
As for the starters...
Other then Paul throwing up bricks, offense looks the same to me.
Really hasn't changed much from the last two years. Lance at a more consistent, higher level of play. DWest legs looking better. Overall chemistry is a little better.
Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."