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Thread: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

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    This is Frank's chance to put in Copeland for PG
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

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    We routinely saw this level of play in the late 1990's. The offense was a highly tuned machine at the time.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Danny's shooting % doesn't look great, but he did play well tonight with 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks, and only 1 turnover and somehow managed a +21.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Danny's shooting % doesn't look great, but he did play well tonight with 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks, and only 1 turnover and somehow managed a +21.
    I think that's kind of what we can expect from him now, support role with some D and boards. Maybe an occasional 3. I can live with it and I think the team would agree.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    This was a great game. The hustle plays and extra effort won it for the Pacers though.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Danny's shooting % doesn't look great, but he did play well tonight with 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks, and only 1 turnover and somehow managed a +21.
    This is particularly strange. Lillard was -12 yet scored 38 on terrific shooting and handed out 11 dimes. Danny 7 points in 40 minutes on 30% shooting...0% from 3.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    This is particularly strange. Lillard was -12 yet scored 38 on terrific shooting and handed out 11 dimes. Danny 7 points in 40 minutes on 30% shooting...0% from 3.
    Just a reminder that +/- is far from a unanimously reliable statistic.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    This is particularly strange. Lillard was -12 yet scored 38 on terrific shooting and handed out 11 dimes. Danny 7 points in 40 minutes on 30% shooting...0% from 3.
    Except for the slow start the team as a whole just played better on both ends when Danny was in, especially when both he and Hill were in together. It wasn't until Danny went out in the first until Portland started going crazy on offense, and early in the second he played a big role in helping the team to cut the lead down even if he wasn't putting up the stats. At one point in the third he was shooting 50%. In the fourth I think his legs left him a little contributing to the airball, but he was still hustling and kept the ball alive on a few rebounds, one allowing West to get the rebound for the put back slam. I think the threat of him from 3 helped to open the lane up for Hill.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

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    Just a reminder that +/- is far from a unanimously reliable statistic.
    I really only like the stat when applied to Lineups.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I really only like the stat when applied to Lineups.
    I see three situations where it can be useful, line-ups is the best use for it, trends over the course of a season, and outliers. Tonight Hill, West, and Granger were all outliers. The only other player with a positive was Mahinmi.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Except for the slow start the team as a whole just played better on both ends when Danny was in, especially when both he and Hill were in together. It wasn't until Danny went out in the first until Portland started going crazy on offense, and early in the second he played a big role in helping the team to cut the lead down even if he wasn't putting up the stats. At one point in the third he was shooting 50%. In the fourth I think his legs left him a little contributing to the airball, but he was still hustling and kept the ball alive on a few rebounds, one allowing West to get the rebound for the put back slam. I think the threat of him from 3 helped to open the lane up for Hill.
    I honestly don't know why teams aren't helping off him, DG is shooting horribly from 3 right now. As great as his defense, and intangibles have been...his offense has been inconsistent at best. He had the diminutive Lillard guarding him most of the 4th, and couldn't really capitalize (though a lot of it had to do with the fact Hill/West had it going)

    Were it not for Hill, Danny's lack of offense may have been the goat of the night. He stepped out of bounds in the corner on one late 4th qtr possession, and air balled a 3 from the other corner that Hill luckily grabbed and scored. He was definitely outplayed OFFENSIVELY by Butler. Luckily for Danny, and the team, he's playing the "glue guy" role well. He had 6 Rebs, 2 blks, 3 asst, and kept several loose balls alive. I just wish he would shoot/score more effectively, but at this point it's an on again, off again situation for him. As a huge Granger fan, it's a bit disappointing at times
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 02-08-2014 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I honestly don't know why teams aren't helping off him, DG is shooting horribly from 3 right now. As great as his defense, and intangibles have been...his offense has been inconsistent at best. He had the diminutive Lillard guarding him most of the 4th, and couldn't really capitalize (though a lot of it had to do with the fact Hill/West had it going)

    Were it not for Hill, Danny's lack of offense may have been the goat of the night. He stepped out of bounds in the corner on one late 4th qtr possession, and air balled a 3 from the other corner that Hill luckily grabbed and scored. He was definitely outplayed OFFENSIVELY by Butler. Luckily for Danny, and the team, he's playing the "glue guy" role well. He had 6 Rebs, 2 blks, 3 asst, and kept several loose balls alive. I just wish he would shoot/score more effectively, but at this point it's an on again, off again situation for him. As a huge Granger fan, it's a bit disappointing at times
    He had no lift. That's what caused the airball and missed shot near the rim towards the end of the game. I don't know why we were just parking him at the same spot on the three point line when he is shooting so poorly from three this season. Need to do a better job of getting him involved closer to the basket so that he can at least draw fouls.

    Last night was a good opportunity for him to show what he could do in the starting unit with big minutes. He did some good intangible things such as rebound and keep loose balls alive, as you mention, but the offense was pretty ugly. He's just not an efficient scorer anymore.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Except for the slow start the team as a whole just played better on both ends when Danny was in, especially when both he and Hill were in together. It wasn't until Danny went out in the first until Portland started going crazy on offense, and early in the second he played a big role in helping the team to cut the lead down even if he wasn't putting up the stats. At one point in the third he was shooting 50%. In the fourth I think his legs left him a little contributing to the airball, but he was still hustling and kept the ball alive on a few rebounds, one allowing West to get the rebound for the put back slam. I think the threat of him from 3 helped to open the lane up for Hill.
    The threat of air balls? Come on. He is just not playing well. I hope he gets back to maybe 75% of the player he once was. But seriously. He is not close to the same player. Yes, he looks like Danny Granger. Yes, we all like Danny. But the truth is that he's a step slow and his shooting is on about 20% of the time. That's not good when his best attribute is shooting. I hope he gets it together soon as much as anyone because it could make a huge difference. But he's only a role player at this point.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The threat of air balls? Come on. He is just not playing well. I hope he gets back to maybe 75% of the player he once was. But seriously. He is not close to the same player. Yes, he looks like Danny Granger. Yes, we all like Danny. But the truth is that he's a step slow and his shooting is on about 20% of the time. That's not good when his best attribute is shooting. I hope he gets it together soon as much as anyone because it could make a huge difference. But he's only a role player at this point.

    I appreciate how he has focused on doing the little things. Last night he rebounded well and he's shown a willingness to pass all season, plus he has given good effort on D. Went after loose balls too. He wants to just help the team win. But as far as his offense is concerned, he's just not that much of a threat anymore. His best asset at this point is drawing fouls. He must have shot a billion free throws when hurt because he is automatic at the line.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I honestly don't know why teams aren't helping off him, DG is shooting horribly from 3 right now. As great as his defense, and intangibles have been...his offense has been inconsistent at best. He had the diminutive Lillard guarding him most of the 4th, and couldn't really capitalize (though a lot of it had to do with the fact Hill/West had it going)

    Were it not for Hill, Danny's lack of offense may have been the goat of the night. He stepped out of bounds in the corner on one late 4th qtr possession, and air balled a 3 from the other corner that Hill luckily grabbed and scored. He was definitely outplayed OFFENSIVELY by Butler. Luckily for Danny, and the team, he's playing the "glue guy" role well. He had 6 Rebs, 2 blks, 3 asst, and kept several loose balls alive. I just wish he would shoot/score more effectively, but at this point it's an on again, off again situation for him. As a huge Granger fan, it's a bit disappointing at times
    That's a pretty good post. I would describe his defense as being good in and around the post where he's not required to move quickly. Out on the floor he's benefiting from Hibbert being behind him because guys can blow right by him. He remains slow and his game driving to the bucket is very poor still. Let's all hope that improves before the playoffs because we need him much better.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

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    I appreciate how he has focused on doing the little things. Last night he rebounded well and he's shown a willingness to pass all season, plus he has given good effort on D. Went after loose balls too. He wants to just help the team win. But as far as his offense is concerned, he's just not that much of a threat anymore. His best asset at this point is drawing fouls. He must have shot a billion free throws when hurt because he is automatic at the line.
    Yes, I appreciate the effort and like I said around the post he's doing well. As for rebounds, he's always been pretty good at that...and it doesn't require quickness as much as a willingness to get in position and the length and strength to pull them down. He'll be fine at that. He's also shown he can pass well. But he's really not even 50% Granger at this point.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes, I appreciate the effort and like I said around the post he's doing well. As for rebounds, he's always been pretty good at that...and it doesn't require quickness as much as a willingness to get in position and the length and strength to pull them down. He'll be fine at that. He's also shown he can pass well. But he's really not even 50% Granger at this point.
    I actually think Danny looks the same physically. Any Granger fan knows he's ALWAYS played this way. The only difference between him now and Granger then is the fact that he can't shoot anymore. He gets good looks, and in spite of being "slow", he gets to the rim pretty effectively, and is starting to draw fouls because of it (though not last night)

    Honestly, he needs to NOT be utilized as a floor spacer and should be used more in the post, and closer to the basket. Since he can't shoot right now, get him closer to the rim.

    But Idk about him being "50%" of what he used to be. The ONLY difference in his game right now is his inability to consistently knock down jump shots. Obviously that was a huge part of his game, but everything else is there..especially physically.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I actually think Danny looks the same physically. Any Granger fan knows he's ALWAYS played this way. The only difference between him now and Granger then is the fact that he can't shoot anymore. He gets good looks, and in spite of being "slow", he gets to the rim pretty effectively, and is starting to draw fouls because of it (though not last night)

    Honestly, he needs to NOT be utilized as a floor spacer and should be used more in the post, and closer to the basket. Since he can't shoot right now, get him closer to the rim.

    But Idk about him being "50%" of what he used to be. The ONLY difference in his game right now is his inability to consistently knock down jump shots. Obviously that was a huge part of his game, but everything else is there..especially physically.
    He physically looks the same but he's not there yet. Keep in mind he was out or nearly 1 1/2 years. He's playing stiff, may not fully trust his knees and his quickness, while not great before, is not there yet.

    Also, Granger had a pretty effective, albeit mechanical, drive to the bucket. We have not seen that succeed this year now, have we? The reason it's not there is that he's not moving well enough to pull it off. His jump shot is off because he still doesn't have his legs. These things and mental roadblocks are his issues.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He did some good intangible things such as rebound and keep loose balls alive, as you mention, but the offense was pretty ugly. He's just not an efficient scorer anymore.
    Well, there's no way of arguing that his offense wasn't ugly last night; I have to agree. But I still think he's not an efficient scorer yet. 40 minutes is the most he's played in a game for a long time. You can see it coming back to him, and we'll be better off once it does. In the meantime, he's doing work on the intangibles, and if he's going to shoot a low percentage, at least he's not trying to make it up on volume.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Also, Granger had a pretty effective, albeit mechanical, drive to the bucket. We have not seen that succeed this year now, have we? The reason it's not there is that he's not moving well enough to pull it off.
    We watching the same Granger? I think I've seen every game in the past month... we've seen several nice drives to the hoop. He's doing just fine getting into the paint. If he could get even his midrange shot back, it would open up a lot of opportunities for him.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    We watching the same Granger? I think I've seen every game in the past month... we've seen several nice drives to the hoop. He's doing just fine getting into the paint. If he could get even his midrange shot back, it would open up a lot of opportunities for him.
    IDK. He's definitely not nearly as effective getting to the rim. He never was great at it, but he was a lot better than this. Of course, his best attribute was his perimeter game which is obviously off. But still, his drive isn't as good and he's not moving as well. It's not like he's half speed or anything. He's probably lost...I would guess...about 10-15% of his quickness and that's really a big deal for him. Also, it's not like he was explosive but he doesn't even have what he had before. This is not a completely healthy Danny Granger.

    Edit: I think the obvious is masking things not quite as obvious. Clearly his shooting is off. But that's simply not the only issue at the moment.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    This is not a completely healthy Danny Granger.
    Well, I can agree with that. I still think that if his shooting was back, it would open up a lot more for him, even without additional quickness or explosiveness.
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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Granger has looked ok to me until it takes time to actually take the shot. The problem has been that's from any distance. From the SportVU data:

    On drives to the basket: Granger is 361st out of 502 players with a 29.2% FG percentage
    On close shots (any shot other than drives that starts with a touch 12 feet or in): Granger is 275th out of 502 players with a FG% of 50.0%
    On catch and shoot: Granger is 274th out of 502 players with a 36.0% FG percentage.
    On pull up shots: Granger is 330th out of 502 players with a 28.1% FG percentage
    Overall EFG%: Granger is 395th out of 502 players with a .423 EFG%

    Right now I think the Pacers are fine because Danny is doing the little things. He's been a willing passer, a solid rebounder, a capable defender. He has accepted his role and isn't trying to shoot his way out of it, and so far teams have respected his potential ability which has opened up the floor a little bit. He is really struggling shooting in every single area of the floor though.

    Pritchard did say on Jason Whitlock's podcast a couple of weeks back though that they thought he was 85% now and would be 100% by the end of the season, and we do know that Granger's shot has taken a while to warm up in the past. Hopefully that happens because he's a liability if he's still shooting like this in April. Teams will really just back off of him.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    Granger has looked ok to me until it takes time to actually take the shot. The problem has been that's from any distance. From the SportVU data:

    On drives to the basket: Granger is 361st out of 502 players with a 29.2% FG percentage
    On close shots (any shot other than drives that starts with a touch 12 feet or in): Granger is 275th out of 502 players with a FG% of 50.0%
    On catch and shoot: Granger is 274th out of 502 players with a 36.0% FG percentage.
    On pull up shots: Granger is 330th out of 502 players with a 28.1% FG percentage
    Overall EFG%: Granger is 395th out of 502 players with a .423 EFG%

    Right now I think the Pacers are fine because Danny is doing the little things. He's been a willing passer, a solid rebounder, a capable defender. He has accepted his role and isn't trying to shoot his way out of it, and so far teams have respected his potential ability which has opened up the floor a little bit. He is really struggling shooting in every single area of the floor though.

    Pritchard did say on Jason Whitlock's podcast a couple of weeks back though that they thought he was 85% now and would be 100% by the end of the season, and we do know that Granger's shot has taken a while to warm up in the past. Hopefully that happens because he's a liability if he's still shooting like this in April. Teams will really just back off of him.
    I think 85% physically back is about right. That's pretty much what I'm saying. But that doesn't translate to 85% productivity/percentages, especially on offense. How Danny progresses is probably more important to this team than how much Andrew Bynum can add. I hope the all-star break gives him time to rejuvenate and get back in the groove because if he does make it back to being a threat he will add a tremendous amount to this team.

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    Default Re: 2/7/2014 Game Thread #49: Pacers Vs. Blazers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Well, I can agree with that. I still think that if his shooting was back, it would open up a lot more for him, even without additional quickness or explosiveness.
    Agreed. The poor shooting has to either be a mental block or his legs aren't close enough to 100%. I think it's a little of both. Give it another month and if it's not fixed I would start doubting he will get back to near normal.

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