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Thread: Super Bowl Thread

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    You make a valid argument, but QB rating means very little to me when judging playoff performance. A QB could have a very good game and then fold or choke or throw a costly pick in the 4th quarter with the game on the line and his numbers would still look good. Anybody that says that Peyton hasn't played below average in the posts season is kidding themselves. You can even see it on his face. He's not the same QB in extreme high pressure games.
    It's more than just a qb rating. His number of picks is similiar to the rest of them. We just have a better memory of his picks. His picks are usually the result of them being down and him taking a chance. I get saying he throws untimely ones, I completely agree even though I do put stock in the "excuse" , but to say that he's an average playoff QB is ignorant of the total body of work.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-04-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    These are the stats prior to Sunday's SB. (I'm really too lazy to add them in, rather than trying to avoid it. I just copied and pasted from the earlier discussion)

    Player A (22 games): 64.05comp% 286.6yds/gm 36TDs (1.63 TD/gm) 22INTs (1INT/gm) QBR 90.1
    Player B (26games): 62.11comp% 247.1yds/gm 43TDs (1.65TD/gm) 22INTs (0.85INT/gm) QBR 87.5
    Player C (23games): 62.67comp% 251yds/gm 45TDs (1.95TD/gm) 21INT (0.91INT/gm) QBR 95.6
    Player D (16games): 63.75comp% 240.6yds/gm 23TDS (1.43TD/gm) 17INT (1.1INT/gm) QBR 88.3

    So which one is Peyton and how exactly is he "average?"
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  3. #328

    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    ........ how exactly is he "average?"
    He has an 11-12 postseason record.

  4. #329

    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    You make a valid argument, but QB rating means very little to me when judging playoff performance. A QB could have a very good game and then fold or choke or throw a costly pick in the 4th quarter with the game on the line and his numbers would still look good. Anybody that says that Peyton hasn't played below average in the posts season is kidding themselves. You can even see it on his face. He's not the same QB in extreme high pressure games.
    So was he playing below average in the other two games leading up to the SB? Because you had no comment whatsoever about him up until Sunday

    I have no issue with people saying he sucked in the SB because he did but I don't get how people are discounting that he actually played well up until that point or that doesn't matter since the team lost the SB.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    He has an 11-12 postseason record.
    If that's how we judge individual players, then Trent Dilfer is the GOAT and it's not even up for debate.

    His playoff record is 5-1.

    43.7comp% 161.8yds/game 4TDs (0.667 TDs/gm) 4 INTs (0.667 INTs/gm) QBR 66.

    ALL HAIL THE GOAT!!!
    Last edited by Since86; 02-04-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    So was he playing below average in the other two games leading up to the SB? Because you had no comment whatsoever about him up until Sunday

    I have no issue with people saying he sucked in the SB because he did but I don't get how people are discounting that he actually played well up until that point or that doesn't matter since the team lost the SB.

    I never said he doesn't have good games in the post season. Especially when he's at home in good weather. I just said in more cases than not his play regresses in the post season. Body language and demeanor tells me a lot. It's not the same Peyton in the biggest of games like a SB. He's not as confident and I can see it on his face.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If that's how we judge individual players, then Trent Dilfer is the GOAT and it's not even up for debate.
    You just don't get it - do you ??

    You've been making the same argument over and over and over and over ........ we get it. We understand YOUR opinion. Just freakin' stop trying to impose it on everyone all the freakin' time.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Just freakin' stop trying to impose it on everyone all the freakin' time.

    As soon as you stop moving goalposts.

    EDIT: Just answer me one question, do you think Trent Dilfer is better than Tom Brady, Troy Aikman, and Joe Montana? Only one of them has a 83.33 winning percentage.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-04-2014 at 12:58 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Imagine someone trying to argue that Barry Sanders was an "average" RB, and then dismissed his personal stats and simply cited his 78-82 team record.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  11. #335

    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Apples/oranges.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Apples/oranges.
    So what about Dilfer being better than Brady, Aikman, and Montana with his 83wining%?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  13. #337

    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    I've had deeper discussions with my grand-daughter. At least she understands.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    I'm glad someone can understand your babble.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    These are the stats prior to Sunday's SB. (I'm really too lazy to add them in, rather than trying to avoid it. I just copied and pasted from the earlier discussion)

    Player A (22 games): 64.05comp% 286.6yds/gm 36TDs (1.63 TD/gm) 22INTs (1INT/gm) QBR 90.1
    Player B (26games): 62.11comp% 247.1yds/gm 43TDs (1.65TD/gm) 22INTs (0.85INT/gm) QBR 87.5
    Player C (23games): 62.67comp% 251yds/gm 45TDs (1.95TD/gm) 21INT (0.91INT/gm) QBR 95.6
    Player D (16games): 63.75comp% 240.6yds/gm 23TDS (1.43TD/gm) 17INT (1.1INT/gm) QBR 88.3

    So which one is Peyton and how exactly is he "average?"

    What about Super Bowl stats? Manning, Brady, Aikman, and Montana have all played in at least three Super Bowls. The Super Bowl stats/results aren't the end all and be all of the debate, but it's more than fair to bring it into the discussion since it is the game's biggest stage:

    Manning: 1-2 in Super Bowls: 68.18 comp %, 286.7 YPG, 3 TDs, 4 INTs, 81.0 QBR
    Brady: 3-2 in Super Bowls: 64.47 comp %, 255.5 YPG, 9 TDs, 2 INT's, 93.8 QBR
    Montana: 4-0 in Super Bowls: 68.03 comp %, 285.5 YPG, 11 TD's, 0 INTs', 127.8 QBR
    Aikman: 3-0 in Super Bowls: 70.00 comp %, 229.7 YPG, 5 TD's, 1 INT, 111.9 QBR.


    I'm not saying that the Super Bowl stats and records are the end all and be all of everything, but they are certainly necessary to bring into the equation. When you're talking about the best of the best, it's certainly more than fair to compare how they performed on the game's biggest stage since all of them went to multiple Super Bowls. That is what separates Manning from Montana and Brady. They have the multiple rings and the good stats in the Super Bowl. He has one ring and pretty mediocre stats in three appearances. That is what separates someone who is top five-ish from someone who is at the very very top. By now, Manning has had his chances to get to the very top, but he has not been able to seal the deal.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Gee I don't know other teams might actually be better?
    So this is the reason that Peyton would overthrow his receiver or throw right into the chest of the opponent is only because the other team is better? You're reaching here.

    Hard to believe but you need more than one player to win a championship(except where Peyton is concerned apparently)I'm not saying he hasn't played badly or anything he has but people act as if he didn't play well the past two postseason games.
    I don't solely put every loss on Peyton, but there were quite a few times the one big mistake he made ended up costing the game.

    I mean if you haven't noticed most if not all his postseason losses ended up being to teams that ended up winning the SB. They weren't deserving to win? Why?
    And some of the teams he's lost to were pathetic. And SOME of HIS desicion-making directly led to those losses. Just like on the flip-side he's won alot of those games too. But when I see a 5 time MVP completely overthrow a wide open receiver just because he got pressured (which tends to happen in the playoffs)....then I'm seeing a 3rd year QB making wise decisions while he's being pressured, it's hard to argue when people call the 5-time MVP a choke.

    Bottom line...you're clutching at straws trying to get everyone here to basically say: "Peyton should never be scrutinized." Which, I find to be absolutely false. He's just as susceptable to criticism for his short-comings like any other person. Only his is more magnified because of his accolades. And because of the types of accolades he's achieved, he gets scrutinized more when he plays like doo-doo; which he has done more times than a majority of QBs that are considered great. I'm willing to bet you could take Peyton, Montana, Brady, Elway, and any other QB considered to be one of the greats...put them in a simulation play with each having the same personnel (o-line, WR, TE, etc. etc) and Peyton may be the first to make a bad decision when pressured.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What about Super Bowl stats? Manning, Brady, Aikman, and Montana have all played in at least three Super Bowls. The Super Bowl stats/results aren't the end all and be all of the debate, but it's more than fair to bring it into the discussion since it is the game's biggest stage:

    Manning: 1-2 in Super Bowls: 68.18 comp %, 286.7 YPG, 3 TDs, 4 INTs, 81.0 QBR
    Brady: 3-2 in Super Bowls: 64.47 comp %, 255.5 YPG, 9 TDs, 2 INT's, 93.8 QBR
    Montana: 4-0 in Super Bowls: 68.03 comp %, 285.5 YPG, 11 TD's, 0 INTs', 127.8 QBR
    Aikman: 3-0 in Super Bowls: 70.00 comp %, 229.7 YPG, 5 TD's, 1 INT, 111.9 QBR.


    I'm not saying that the Super Bowl stats and records are the end all and be all of everything, but they are certainly necessary to bring into the equation. When you're talking about the best of the best, it's certainly more than fair to compare how they performed on the game's biggest stage since all of them went to multiple Super Bowls. That is what separates Manning from Montana and Brady. They have the multiple rings and the good stats in the Super Bowl. He has one ring and pretty mediocre stats in three appearances. That is what separates someone who is top five-ish from someone who is at the very very top. By now, Manning has had his chances to get to the very top, but he has not been able to seal the deal.
    Can't disagree with any of it. The only thing I'd point out is that the point is usually about how Peyton "chokes" in the playoffs in general.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  19. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    So this is the reason that Peyton would overthrow his receiver or throw right into the chest of the opponent is only because the other team is better? You're reaching here.



    I don't solely put every loss on Peyton, but there were quite a few times the one big mistake he made ended up costing the game.



    And some of the teams he's lost to were pathetic. And SOME of HIS desicion-making directly led to those losses. Just like on the flip-side he's won alot of those games too. But when I see a 5 time MVP completely overthrow a wide open receiver just because he got pressured (which tends to happen in the playoffs)....then I'm seeing a 3rd year QB making wise decisions while he's being pressured, it's hard to argue when people call the 5-time MVP a choke.

    Bottom line...you're clutching at straws trying to get everyone here to basically say: "Peyton should never be scrutinized." Which, I find to be absolutely false. He's just as susceptable to criticism for his short-comings like any other person. Only his is more magnified because of his accolades. And because of the types of accolades he's achieved, he gets scrutinized more when he plays like doo-doo; which he has done more times than a majority of QBs that are considered great. I'm willing to bet you could take Peyton, Montana, Brady, Elway, and any other QB considered to be one of the greats...put them in a simulation play with each having the same personnel (o-line, WR, TE, etc. etc) and Peyton may be the first to make a bad decision when pressured.
    Except that's not what I said. People act as if there aren't other good teams in this league I mean is Seattle full of scrubs or something? They got to the SB for a reason just like Denver did. They had the same record as Denver and played in a much tougher conference and division.

    Why is it hard to believe that Seattle is the better team? I mean they sure played like it. Or the Pats in 2003 and 2004? Or 2005 Steelers? list goes on those teams beat others along the way to the SB you aren't going to win every game you are in. Sometimes you get beat and just have to accept it.

    I never said Peyton shouldn't be scrutinized but if people believe he's this epic disappointment as a QB then why are you surprised when he doesn't play well? You expected it right? So if its laughable for him to be in the GOAT discussion then don't put him in it to begin with. Yet they do despite saying that he should never be an option.

    If he's not good enough to be mentioned then don't mention him to begin with. Like they don't mention Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees etc.
    Not hard.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Bottom line...you're clutching at straws trying to get everyone here to basically say: "Peyton should never be scrutinized." Which, I find to be absolutely false.
    That's not what's being said.

    There's a HUGE difference between showing Peyton's playoff stats to say he's not an "average" playoff QB and saying that Peyton should never be scrutinized. Forget the stats, an "average" playoff QB doesn't go to 3 Superbowls.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Should I repost the career playoff numbers of Peyton, Tom Brady, Troy Aikman, and Joe Montana again? I would really really love how people would explain to me how Peyton's numbers, which pretty much match all the rest of the QBs numbers, are consided "average" when their numbers are supposedly for the QBs who belong in the GOAT discussion.

    I just don't think people actually realize how good PM has performed, on average, throughout the playoffs. I say "on average" for a reason, because yes he has some stinkers. He also has some really good playoff performances that balance out those stinkers. Just like Brady, Aikman, and Montana. It's just a shame how Peyton is defined by his stinkers, and people think that's the "real" Peyton playoff performance.
    I'm not talking about completion% and TD's stats...I'm talking about when Peyton gets pressured and has an "Oh $h!t!!!" moment and throws a "duck" that turns into in interception. And I'm not saying no other QB has EVER had that moment. But most GREAT QB's improvise and either check-down, throw out of bounds, or run. I've seen Peyton, many times, throw right into coverage and then have a dejected look as his throw turns into a pick-6.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That's not what's being said.

    There's a HUGE difference between showing Peyton's playoff stats to say he's not an "average" playoff QB and saying that Peyton should never be scrutinized. Forget the stats, an "average" playoff QB doesn't go to 3 Superbowls.
    But average and below-average QB's have made the superbowl. And by the way, I never said Peyton was just some average joe type of QB. So...nice try

    Also, tell me what exactly IS being said...cuz, what I'm getting is basketball fan is wondering why people put the 'choke' label on Peyton, and I'm trying to reason why it's understandable that people think that way.
    Last edited by pogi; 02-04-2014 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Can't disagree with any of it. The only thing I'd point out is that the point is usually about how Peyton "chokes" in the playoffs in general.

    I agree. Peyton has gone to 3 Super Bowls in the last 7 seasons that he's played. That's an extremely impressive statistic which shows that has the ability to routinely take his team deep in the playoffs.

    When I criticize him in this thread, I'm doing it solely form the viewpoint of what is expected of someone who is in the running to be the best ever. He's obviously had a top 5 all time career, maybe even higher than that. But he could have been considered the very best ever if just one of these last two Super Bowls goes a bit differently. As a fan of his and as a fan of the Colts, I hate that it didn't work out better for him, but it is what it is. If we win that 09 championship, then we would have had 2 out of 4, which would have been a mini-dynasty in today's NFL. It wouldn't be the same as New England's 3 in 4, but it would have been the same as Pitt's 2 out 4. That Saints game is haunting because it was very winnable. As far Sunday's game is concerned, it was a missed opportunity to complete the greatest quarterbacking season in history and add an extremely impressive late career ring to his resume'. These missed opportunities are why it's hard to rank him as the very best ever.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I'm not talking about completion% and TD's stats...I'm talking about when Peyton gets pressured and has an "Oh $h!t!!!" moment and throws a "duck" that turns into in interception. And I'm not saying no other QB has EVER had that moment. But most GREAT QB's improvise and either check-down, throw out of bounds, or run. I've seen Peyton, many times, throw right into coverage and then have a dejected look as his throw turns into a pick-6.
    I'm sure you've also seen him make plenty of plays in the playoffs. Like I've said, we as humans tend to remember the bad times and forget the good ones.

    Take the 2003 post season for example.
    First game against Denver he throws up 41pts on 22-26 for 377yds and 5tds?
    2nd game against Kansas they he wins a 38-31 shootout, 22-30 for 304yds and 3tds?

    Do you remember those games?

    I bet you remember the next game against the Pats where he went 23-47 for 237yds 1td and 4ints.

    Slick likes to mention his one and done's and that makes you look at games like he had in the 2005 postseason against Pitt. The Colts lost 18-21. Peyton was 22-38 290yds and 1td. But it was a loss, so Peyton "choked."
    Or what about 2010 against the Jets when the Colts lost 16-17? Peyton was 18-26 for 225yds and a TD.

    It's really easy to remember the handful of bad examples, or look at a record, and make an opinion. But when you start looking at things with more detail, you'll be surprised at what you find out.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    And about those one and done's. Here are Peyton's collective stats.

    176-302 for 2078yds 10tds and 6ints

    Per game
    22-37.75 58comp% 259.38yds 1.25TDs 0.75INTs

    Out of the 8 games, he threw picks in just 3 of them.

    EDIT: I just went ahead and looked at the other elimination games he's lost

    Collective stats
    4games: 115-183 1088yds 3TDs 8INTs (4 are from one game)

    Per game:
    28.75-45.75 62.48comp% 0.75TD 2INT

    Per game average of all 12 losses
    24.25-40.42 59.99comp% 263.83yds 1.08TDs 1.67INTs

    Yeah, he's had some pretty bad games when they lost, but he's also had some pretty good ones mixed in there.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-04-2014 at 03:13 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm sure you've also seen him make plenty of plays in the playoffs. Like I've said, we as humans tend to remember the bad times and forget the good ones.

    Take the 2003 post season for example.
    First game against Denver he throws up 41pts on 22-26 for 377yds and 5tds?
    2nd game against Kansas they he wins a 38-31 shootout, 22-30 for 304yds and 3tds?

    Do you remember those games?

    I bet you remember the next game against the Pats where he went 23-47 for 237yds 1td and 4ints.

    Slick likes to mention his one and done's and that makes you look at games like he had in the 2005 postseason against Pitt. The Colts lost 18-21. Peyton was 22-38 290yds and 1td. But it was a loss, so Peyton "choked."
    Or what about 2010 against the Jets when the Colts lost 16-17? Peyton was 18-26 for 225yds and a TD.

    It's really easy to remember the handful of bad examples, or look at a record, and make an opinion. But when you start looking at things with more detail, you'll be surprised at what you find out.
    And were Kansas City and Denver considered defensive stalwarts at that time? Exactly....NO!! They were not. So that has no correlation to my argument whatsoever. I never said Peyton has never won a playoff game, nor has never, in his life, beat a good defensive playoff team. What I have been saying is that MOST OF THE TIME, in other words...alot, multiple, various, many....he's made a rookie-type dumb throw at crucial times in playoff games.

    And by the way, what was, I believe, the last offensive possession on that Jets game? If memory serves me right, it was Peyton throwing an interception.

  29. #350

    Default Re: Super Bowl Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    And were Kansas City and Denver considered defensive stalwarts at that time? Exactly....NO!! They were not. So that has no correlation to my argument whatsoever. I never said Peyton has never won a playoff game, nor has never, in his life, beat a good defensive playoff team. What I have been saying is that MOST OF THE TIME, in other words...alot, multiple, various, many....he's made a rookie-type dumb throw at crucial times in playoff games.

    And by the way, what was, I believe, the last offensive possession on that Jets game? If memory serves me right, it was Peyton throwing an interception.

    Well your memory sucks because if you're referring to the last game Manning had as a Colt the Colts had the lead on an Vinateri FG then Cromartie had a kickoff return and Caldwell called that awful timeout and the Jets kicked us out of the playoffs.

    He never turned the ball over in that game.

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