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Thread: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    I am not so sure about that.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I am not so sure about that.
    Maybe not. But he had a good season two years ago with the Nets before his disastrous run with the Pacers. This guy has consistently disappeared like a fart in the wind throughout his career. I think a huge reason for his success right now is that he is playing in a system that perfectly maximizes his abilities. All the credit to him for executing and playing a big role on a winning team.

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  4. #78
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    lol.. on one play Danny was standing open in the corner hands ready for a pass from lance.. next play danny didn't even bother getting ready to shoot. then when lance does get him the ball the clock expired.. I think that was what danny was upset about heading to the bench. lance has been missing him in the corners at times. which leads to next point.

    the second unit has very little chemistry.. add to it the fact no one on this team can hit shots right now and this is the result... losing to PHX at home.


    maybe teams are figuring out the pacers schemes. I liked this team a lot better when they moved the ball. the excessive one on one overdribbling is not what I thought this team was all about.

    our 2nd unit is looking to get up shots too quickly and I think our starting lineup has stopped moving the ball and just overdribbling here more recently.


    keep this up and buh bye 1 seed.
    I've said this before but I don't like the way Lance plays with the bench and it really comes down to a lack of being coached. Vogel is giving him the green light to run the show and it isn't his game. We have the depth, I'd like to see Lance and Paul's minutes reduced in most games to around 32-33 minutes and if we have to keep a starter with the second unit I'd like it to be Paul or GH.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    It's a long season, but our guys need to come out with a more energy to start each game. I don't want to see them limp into the all-star break, after having such a strong first half up to this point. My guess is they'll get it together. Granted, we are probably all exagerrating this given that what? They've lost a few games as of late? However, I think all of us know how great this team can be, and that's why we have such high expectations. I think someone like George, West, or Hibbert needs to come out and really set the level of intensity from the start.

    The Suns are a tough matchup for us. They're fast and athletic and can shoot. Plus, I think Green and Plumlee have played with some chip on their shoulder against us with something to prove.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    PG is just hitting a rough streak, you can tell because his free throws are having trouble falling as well. I am fine with him putting up 20 shots, he is our best player, he earned the right. If he doesn't hit them fine, but eventually they will fall
    I somewhat disagree. It depends on what those 20 shots are. Most scorers who are not hitting their jump shot early on will delay taking more jump shts and start posting up or going to the rim. They make sure that they remain efficient scorers by getting more trips to the line and making certain that they then hit their free throws.

    I think that this is probably where some of the "lazy comments" came from. Paul simply didn't do this, at least not enough. I question Paul's focus at this time; at least I hope it's his focus. I'd hate to think where we are headed if it's a confidence problem. I'm hoping that a lot of practice jump shots in his free time will get him back on track.

  8. #81

    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    I somewhat disagree. It depends on what those 20 shots are. Most scorers who are not hitting their jump shot early on will delay taking more jump shts and start posting up or going to the rim. They make sure that they remain efficient scorers by getting more trips to the line and making certain that they then hit their free throws.

    I think that this is probably where some of the "lazy comments" came from. Paul simply didn't do this, at least not enough. I question Paul's focus at this time; at least I hope it's his focus. I'd hate to think where we are headed if it's a confidence problem. I'm hoping that a lot of practice jump shots in his free time will get him back on track.
    PG24 doesn't strike me as the type to ever have worrisome/consistent confidence problems. He's going to miss 10, then take that big shot. He shoots too confidently in the 4th to make me think confidence is ever an issue with him.

    The thing with PG24 is twofold...

    ON OFFENSE: If his shot isn't falling, he needs to get to the rim. He tried that last night, just bad combination of not getting calls and not getting shot to fall even at the rim.

    ON DEFENSE: I think sometimes PG24 can be a bit either/or, he either locks in on offense or defense. Last night was problematic because in the first half, he did neither. PG24's cardinal rule should be to ALWAYS be locked in on defense. Frankly, he was disengaged in the first half. He wasn't the only one, but he's the one you expect the most from.

  9. #82
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    The spacing is horrible on offense. Opposing defenses have adjusted to us through scouting. Our players can't get a clean shot off. Ball movement is stifled.

    I have a feeling we are going to see different sets in the next week. Instead of just pick and roll and Horns with limited movement after the elbow pass, we need to run cross screens for Paul George and George Hill. As much as I liked Lance initiating, it can gridlock the offense. How about have him initiate with down screens and guard screens?

    I haven't seen the shot chart in the last 2 weeks, but I guarantee you that we are not shooting enough corner threes. That is on Vogel.

    Granted Scola, Granger, and Paul George aren't hitting the jumper. But its not like they are getting clean looks too. Shake up the offensive sets before you bail on the rotation.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Maybe not. But he had a good season two years ago with the Nets before his disastrous run with the Pacers. This guy has consistently disappeared like a fart in the wind throughout his career. I think a huge reason for his success right now is that he is playing in a system that perfectly maximizes his abilities. All the credit to him for executing and playing a big role on a winning team.
    I'd agree for the most part that the system change has had a huge impact. That Nets team was pretty conventional though in terms of offense, not much run and gun (23rd in pace), a lot of half court sets with small variations that got run to death. The Little General has never exactly been known for free flowing offense.

    I've said this a bunch of times here, but the Pacers' offense is vastly different than what any other team in the NBA consistently runs. No one relies on inside out, post up play quite the way the Pacers do. It's a tough system to fit into, it's a large part of why guys like Augustine and Green struggled to fit in here. Even guys like Mahinmi and Scola have been painfully inefficient in this system compared to their time with other teams. It isn't an isolated incident, it's something the Pacers' front office has to been hyper aware of to avoid adding guys who don't fit. Obviously the system works though, the team has been wildly successful, just tougher to find guys for it.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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  12. #84
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Either Vogel didn't send the memo or the team didn't get it. Either way I blame Vogel for that terrible effort of a basketball game. Just terrible, all that I have loved about this team has been gone for awile now and that home game should have been the game of renewal. Shame on you Frank!
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    I've said this a bunch of times here, but the Pacers' offense is vastly different than what any other team in the NBA consistently runs. No one relies on inside out, post up play quite the way the Pacers do. It's a tough system to fit into, it's a large part of why guys like Augustine and Green struggled to fit in here. Even guys like Mahinmi and Scola have been painfully inefficient in this system compared to their time with other teams. It isn't an isolated incident, it's something the Pacers' front office has to been hyper aware of to avoid adding guys who don't fit. Obviously the system works though, the team has been wildly successful, just tougher to find guys for it.
    Good post, repole, though the bolded part is clearly not the case. Not sure what we can do short of scrapping the entire offense or trading for a high-level shot creator. I find it just so odd that our poor offensive system and production is barely mentioned in the various NBA circles.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Either Vogel didn't send the memo or the team didn't get it. Either way I blame Vogel for that terrible effort of a basketball game. Just terrible, all that I have loved about this team has been gone for awile now and that home game should have been the game of renewal. Shame on you Frank!
    The coach can be the best motivator in the word before a game, but that's worthless if the players don't execute. I find it a bit ridiculous to place full blame on Frank Vogel based on assumptions.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    The coach can be the best motivator in the word before a game, but that's worthless if the players don't execute. I find it a bit ridiculous to place full blame on Frank Vogel based on assumptions.
    So the players don't listen to Vogel? I mean if Vogel didn't drop the ball, then the players didn't listen or execute is what your saying?

    I'd like to think that Vogel didn't tell the guys how bad he wanted this game. Because if he did tell them this then they sure didn't act like they cared the whole 1st half giving up 60+. It is Vogel's job to get the team to play the level they need to when called upon. If not, then Vogel doesn't have control of his team and I dont think that's the case.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    1. Reading an article on how Paul George said the pacers are pretty much dialed in and then just now then seeing this game, was hysterical.

    2. Did we hit a 3-pointer is the 2nd half? I saw us put plenty up, but I don't recall a single one dropping. We wanted so many tying 3 point shots and they were all terrible decisions except for like 1 that Watson took in the corner because he was wide open.

    3. The **** is going on!? lol
    Last edited by DJVendetta; 01-31-2014 at 03:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    So the players don't listen to Vogel? I mean if Vogel didn't drop the ball, then the players didn't listen or execute is what your saying?

    I'd like to think that Vogel didn't tell the guys how bad he wanted this game. Because if he did tell them this then they sure didn't act like they cared the whole 1st half giving up 60+. It is Vogel's job to get the team to play the level they need to when called upon. If not, then Vogel doesn't have control of his team and I dont think that's the case.
    Well, I guess we disagree on this one. The coach can only do so much and I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt considering his track record since he took over the team. Saying "shame" on Frank Vogel is just utterly ridiculous to me.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    Good post, repole, though the bolded part is clearly not the case. Not sure what we can do short of scrapping the entire offense or trading for a high-level shot creator. I find it just so odd that our poor offensive system and production is barely mentioned in the various NBA circles.
    I recalled their offensive efficiency being higher, but apparently I'm wrong (19th this year, 20th last year). You could argue that their offensive style limits fast break opportunities and gives their defense a better chance to set up. That may or may not be true, I really don't know, but it was what Celtics fans claimed for a while with their elite defense and struggling offense.

    With the personnel here it might be hard to change things much, guys like West and Hibbert really need to be operating from the post to be successful. It seems like Lance is in a pretty ideal role for his style of play, and George isn't left having to create all of the time which is nice. Ideally you'd have another shot creator involved rather than Hill, but he's also the most efficient guy on the team so it's hard to complain about him. Mahinmi seems like a terrible fit, Scola hasn't been much better, and Granger has really struggled. If you replaced those horribly unproductive minutes with anything approaching league average, this would be a decently above average offensive team.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    PG's last 3 games: FG 15-56 27%... 3PFG 1-16 6%... FT 13-23 57%

    Maybe someone should spend a little less time visiting with Jimmy Kimmel and a little more time putting up shots in the gym...its a wonder we won one of the 3
    I've been told that it's part of his job.

    I don't agree, but it seems to have been accepted.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Paul and David just killed us late last night. They missed probably 8 shots between them that they should have made 5 or 6 at least. I don't know what's going on with this team, but they are havign issues on both sides of the ball. We need to someone to light a fire. I thoguht PJ Tucker pissing off Roy last night was going to do it, but it just didn't happen and we relaly, really, really need Scola and Watson to stop sucking.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Also, for everyone who hates the three point shot, this is what happens in today's NBA when you can't at least come up with 4 or 5 made 3s a game.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Also, for everyone who hates the three point shot, this is what happens in today's NBA when you can't at least come up with 4 or 5 made 3s a game.
    In our two match-ups against the Suns:

    Phoenix shot 19-33 from three.

    Pacers shot 6-30 from three.

    Ballgame(s).

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Paul needs to just sit down and watch tape of how devastating he is when he gets even an ounce of space int he middle of the court. He is so long and athletic that he gets to the rim fromt hat point with ease. No need for him to settle for jumpers when they are not falling. He got a couple good looks, but his first half was very disengaged because phoenix was not letting him have jumpers.

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  26. #96
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    My take on this:

    1) Dragic was 'dialed-in' that first half. Honestly, even if Paul was guarding him the first half, I have a feeling he was getting his. I contribute his decline in the second half more on fatigue than Paul's defense. And I'm not saying that Paul wouldn't of defended him good, but I feel that Dragic was very, very confident he could break us down, and had the quickness to do it. He was going right into the paint and daring Hibbert or whomever was there to stop him.

    2) I'm usually never the one to put blame on the refs. And I'm not saying it is the refs that caused us to lose last night's game...but it was very uneven, on both sides. One minute someone is getting mangled going to the rim, a few plays later they're calling foul on a hip check. There were even questionable calls going the Pacers way. But one thing that got me going "WTF refs!!"...and if no one believes me, if you happen to dvr last nights game, watch it again, but there were numerous times that a Pacer would get past a defender, and the defender would pull on their jersey. Dragic did it to George Hill, at least, 3 times. Matter-of-fact, before one commercial break, when they show it in slow-mo, you could see Dragic pull the back of Hill's jersey as soon as he got swung around him and went to the rim.

    3) We may need to put a new wrinkle in our play-calling. I think we're getting too predictable. I noticed the last few games, especially last night's game, that our opponents knew who was getting the ball, and how-and-when they would be getting it. There were several times last night that a defender was right where our player should be. Maybe I'm not explaining it right, but, for example, Hill would be crossing half-court, and on certain plays, West would meet him at the top of the 3-point line and initialize a somewhat motion offense where Paul would curl on the left, and sometimes Lance would curl on the right. But, before David made a move, his defender steps right where West is supposed to be positioned, which, in turn, causes Hill to hesitate. And the other guys would be covered so it completely throws the timing off. Then it becomes chaos, which will end up as a last-second contested shot, a turnover, or an offensive foul. Maybe I'm talking out of my @ss, but it seems we are not crisp with our execution, or some of these coaches have figured us out. Or we just plain and simply have gotten slower for some reason.

    4) Back to the play-calling....WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT PLAY TO PAUL, WHO'S MISSED EVERY 3-POINTER HE SHOT LAST NIGHT AND WAS HEAVILY GUARDED, IN THE LAST MINUTE OR SO!!! That was a boo-boo on Vogel for even drawing that up. That play was the endgame for us.

    5) I'm not too worried about other teams thinking this is the game-plan to beat us, because in the playoffs that run-and-gun ***** doesn't work. The West is known for being geared more to this type of offense, yet, the last 3 Western teams that's won a championship (Spurs, Dallas, and L.A.) figured out that playoffs slow down, and you need the half-court set to win it all. It may hurt us during the season, but, until a team just fast-breaks us to death in series, I'm not too worried.

    Sorry for my rant.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    In our two match-ups against the Suns:

    Phoenix shot 19-33 from three.

    Pacers shot 6-30 from three.

    Ballgame(s).
    Further analysis of these stats:

    Suns 3pt average for the Season - 9.4 3ptM / 25.3 3ptA = 37.1 %
    Suns 3pt average for January ( 16 games ) - 8.9 3ptm / 24.3 3ptA = 36.8 %

    Against the Pacers:

    8 of 17 shooting at 47% ( in yesterday's game )
    11 of 16 shooting at 68.8% ( in Phoenix )
    19 of 33 shooting at 57% ( overall )

    They are not only scoring well above their average....they are making it seem like they are in practice hoisting up uncontested 3pt shots.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-31-2014 at 08:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Further analysis of these stats:

    Suns 3pt average for the Season - 9.4 3ptM / 25.3 3ptA = 37.1 %
    Suns 3pt average for January ( 16 games ) - 8.9 3ptm / 24.3 3ptA = 36.8 %

    Against the Pacers:

    8 of 17 shooting at 47% ( in yesterday's game )
    11 of 16 shooting at 68.8% ( in Phoenix )
    19 of 33 shooting at 57% ( overall )

    They are not only scoring well above their average....they are making it seem like they are in practice hoisting up uncontested 3pt shots.
    Those shots for the most part were WIDE OPEN though. I can't count how many times Dragic easily got past George Hill, everyone collapsed in the paint, and it left a wide open 3 point shooter.
    @qandrews9428

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    I recalled their offensive efficiency being higher, but apparently I'm wrong (19th this year, 20th last year). You could argue that their offensive style limits fast break opportunities and gives their defense a better chance to set up. That may or may not be true, I really don't know, but it was what Celtics fans claimed for a while with their elite defense and struggling offense.

    With the personnel here it might be hard to change things much, guys like West and Hibbert really need to be operating from the post to be successful. It seems like Lance is in a pretty ideal role for his style of play, and George isn't left having to create all of the time which is nice. Ideally you'd have another shot creator involved rather than Hill, but he's also the most efficient guy on the team so it's hard to complain about him. Mahinmi seems like a terrible fit, Scola hasn't been much better, and Granger has really struggled. If you replaced those horribly unproductive minutes with anything approaching league average, this would be a decently above average offensive team.
    Our starting lineup is actually 107 points per 100 this year compared to 108.6 last year. I'm too terrible at the NBA.com stats (at least at work, why Internet Explorer, why?) but if we are 102.6 for pp100 this year and last year we were at 101.6, it seems like the team is slightly more efficient overall (I think this is the case league-wide.), but the starters less so. They did go on a bit of a run to end last season and that could still happen. But at this point, it seems like our starting five has gotten worse on offense; it seems like they should be better with more experience, part of the reason for the confusion.

    Meaning that the bench is possible actually improved over last year, with obviously a variety of factors possibly contributing. So I guess I'm disagreeing with you on the bench (as a noted Ian supporter notwithstanding). (I'm not 100 on these numbers since my entire PC freezes when I shuffle the columns around.)

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    Default Re: Pacers/Suns Postgame Thread

    Schuhmann gets into it a little bit, though this is mostly in regards to our insanely consistent inconsistency with which most of us are familiar. Via. He doesn't mention much about last year other than saying we were fairly stable on the 'O' end.

    The List

    Highest standard deviation, quarter-to-quarter NetRtg
    Team VOff Rank VDef Rank VNet
    Indiana 7.2 1 3.7 14 10.4
    Toronto 4.2 9 4.8 9 8.3
    Minnesota 5.3 5 3.1 19 8.3
    Milwaukee 3.5 13 4.9 8 8.0
    New Orleans 5.8 3 6.5 1 7.9
    Portland 2.2 26 5.5 5 7.4
    Detroit 5.1 7 2.2 25 7.2
    New York 2.6 20 5.5 6 6.5
    Philadelphia 2.5 21 5.7 4 6.2
    Boston 2.8 19 4.0 12 6.1
    Standard deviation measures variance or, for our purposes, inconsistency.
    VOff = Offensive variance (OffRtg = Points scored per 100 possessions)
    VDef = Defensive variance (DefRtg = Points allowed per 100 possessions)
    VNet = Net variance (NetRtg = Point differential per 100 possessions)

    The Context

    So essentially, the Pacers are the most inconsistent team in the league from quarter to quarter, which is weird, because they’re, by far, the best defensive team in the league. As we pointed out last week, they’re the best defensive team of the last 37 years (though that differential is down to 9.2), and strong defense is supposed to be the backbone of consistent success.

    The Pacers have the No. 1 defense in the first, third and fourth quarters, and the No. 4 defense in thesecond, though there’s a pretty big difference between the (ridiculously good) 88.8 points per 100 possessions they allow in the third quarter and the (still pretty good) 97.7 they allow in the second. Still, it’s on offense where there’s a lot more fluctuation.


    Pacers efficiency, by period
    Quarter OffRtg Rank DefRtg Rank NetRtg Rank
    1st quarter 96.1 27 94.7 1 +1.4 15
    2nd quarter 96.4 27 97.7 4 -1.3 16
    3rd quarter 110.1 3 88.8 1 +21.2 1
    4th quarter 107.3 12 94.8 1 +12.5 2
    Half OffRtg Rank DefRtg Rank NetRtg Rank
    1st half 96.3 28 96.2 2 +0.0 15
    2nd half 108.7 4 91.8 1 +16.9 1

    There have been two different Pacers teams this season. The First Half Pacers have scored about as efficiently as the Bucks. The Second Half Pacers have an offense more closely resembling the Heat.

    Indiana has had the lead at halftime in 24 of their 45 games. They’ve outscored their opponent in the second half of 35 of the 45.
    In general, there’s a big offensive drop-off when the Pacers go to their bench. (Thursday’s loss to the Sunswas the definition of a bench loss, as well as an example of how they’ve played better after halftime.) But the half-to-half offensive drop-off has been spread rather evenly among their starters and bench units.

    Efficiency of Pacers’ starting lineup, by half
    Half MIN OffRtg DefRtg NetRtg +/-
    1st half 403 101.5 96.5 +4.9 +35
    2nd half 395 112.0 89.6 +22.4 +172
    Difference 10.5 -6.9 17.4
    Efficiency of other Pacers’ lineups, by half
    Half MIN OffRtg DefRtg NetRtg +/-
    1st half 676 93.2 96.1 -2.8 -32
    2nd half 684 106.9 93.0 +13.9 +180
    Difference 13.6 -3.1 16.7

    The Pacers have turned the ball over at the same rate in both halves and are only a slightly better offensive rebounding team in the second half. But they’ve shot much better and gotten to the free-throw line a lot more often in the second half. They’ve also assisted on a greater percentage of their buckets.

    Paul George and Lance Stephenson have been much better shooters in the second half of games. George and George Hill have much higher free throw rates. And both Stephenson and Hill have had higher assist rates. Off the bench, C.J. Watson has shot a lot better and also dished out more assists after halftime.

    The Pacers’ half-to-half discrepancy has lessened some over the last seven weeks. Through their first 22 games, they were scoring 20.4 more points per 100 possessions in the second half. Over their last 23, the difference is only 4.8.

    Amazingly, the Pacers had the second most consistent offense from quarter to quarter last season, behind only the Suns, who were just consistently awful on that end.

    This season, Indiana has found a new gear on both ends of the floor in that third quarter. Their plus-21.2 NetRtg in those 12 minutes is, by far, the best of any team in any quarter. Next best are San Antonio’s plus-13.3 in the second quarter and Toronto’s plus-13.3 in the fourth.

    Whether they’re consistent or inconsistent from quarter to quarter, the Pacers are a much better team than they were last season. But it will be interesting to see if their third-quarter dominance is a big factor in their quest for a championship.
    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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