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Thread: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

  1. #26

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    I mean if you think he sucks that's fine but no need to be defensive about it.
    I'm not defensive about it. I have my opinion. And I don't recall saying that he sucks.

    No need to get carried away - is there ??

  2. #27

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I agree completely.

    Completely absolving any MVP-level player of any blame whatsoever in a long string of disappointing team losses is just as completely short-sided.

    He was neither 100% responsible nor 0% responsible.
    Ah yes I knew you'd arrive with a backhanded compliment about this topic even though Since86 never really absolved Manning he just didn't think he's the sole reason for playoff losses you know like everyone else seems to. The Colts fell apart in Foxboro in the postseason yet again this year the only difference is Manning wasn't the QB go figure. Luck can't do it alone either no QB can despite how QB centric media coverage is.

    And I also wouldn't compare the NBA playoffs to the NFL since the NFL is a one and done format. In the NBA usually the best team wins since its the best of 7.

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  4. #28

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    The analysis re Peyton is about splitting hairs among the best of the best of the best. His harshest critic in the world would not disagree that he has been a far better QB in his career than most other Hall-of-Famers and lock Hall-of-Famers-to-be like Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkington, Warren Moon etc.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  5. #29

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I'm not defensive about it. I have my opinion. And I don't recall saying that he sucks.

    No need to get carried away - is there ??
    Calling people petty for disagreeing with you sounds awfully defensive.

    Well you said he's a mediocre QB in the postseason that's the same thing as saying he sucks.

    I mean Eli is a mediocre regular season QB and people equate that with him sucking. Same thing.

  6. #30
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Yeah, if the Pacers are swept 4-0 in the first round of the NBA playoffs 8 times, some as the #1 seed and others as the #2 seed, and their best player & league MVP doubles his rate of turnovers in the eight years, I think that some could question his play and not be far out of line.
    If said player put up similiar individual stats as Michael Jordan, you'd pin it on him and not the team? Let's not forget that important wrinkle, that PM's playoff play (collective play) is at the same level as Tom Brady, Joe Montana, and Troy Aikman. Those are the three players from my post, BTW.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-29-2014 at 12:48 PM.
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  7. #31
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    People talk about how great Brady is in the postseason compared to Peyton, but all three of NE's Super Bowl championships were won by Vinatieri FGs. In the decade since, Brady has gone 0-2 in Super Bowls.

  8. #32

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    The Colts fell apart in Foxboro in the postseason yet again this year the only difference is Manning wasn't the QB go figure.
    The only difference?

    I missed where the 2013 Colts came into the postseason with the #1 passing offense in the history of Earth, like they did in 2004, or with the #1 defense in the league (points allowed) paired with the #3 offense (point scored) in 2007. I missed all of the pro bowl wide receivers, offensive linemen, etc. on this team, relative the teams of 5-10 years ago.

    The 2013 team seemed to get more done with less, when it mattered most. Well, at least winning a game. Maybe a little of it is quarterbacking. Maybe a lot of it is better coaching, play-calling, game-planning, execution, etc.

    he just didn't think he's the sole reason for playoff losses you know like everyone else seems to.


    like nobody on this planet seems to.

    100% blame is an absurd contention, as is 0% blame
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    like nobody on this planet seems to.

    100% blame is an absurd contention, as is 0% blame

    Only one side is arguing that PM is the sole reason for anything. Me pointing out PM's numbers isn't to say that he's infallible, but rather to say that labeling him "mediocre" is absurd. I only looked at what I was told to look out, then told that what I was told to look at didn't matter.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  11. #34

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    People talk about how great Brady is in the postseason compared to Peyton, but all three of NE's Super Bowl championships were won by Vinatieri FGs. In the decade since, Brady has gone 0-2 in Super Bowls.
    And without camera help
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  12. #35

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Did Peyton shank a potential game tying FG against the steelers. Did he call a time out for the Jets. Did he blow coverage against the ravens last year? Nope. Turns out the other players and coaches have an impact on the game

  13. #36

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Only one side is arguing that PM is the sole reason for anything.
    link?

    I've never heard anyone make such an argument, that he was the sole reason that any team ever lost any game, anywhere, at any time.

    It may seem that way, I guess, since nobody but QBs seemed to be discussed as having any personal association whatsoever with a team loss, unless they make a boneheaded, Leon Lett-type play or a kicker misses a kick.

    For the life of me I don't understand why now and then people don't scrutinize the regular season vs. postseason numbers of, say, Marvin Harrison. I haven't done so, but to a lay person it seems that in some key games in the postseason he totally disappeared. Sure he had his great moments, but I'd guess he under performed relative to his consistent regular season production. A LOT of defensive players did too.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  15. #37
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    link?

    I've never heard anyone make such an argument, that he was the sole reason that any team ever lost any game, anywhere, at any time.

    It may seem that way, I guess, since nobody but QBs seemed to be discussed as having any personal association whatsoever with a team loss, unless they make a boneheaded, Leon Lett-type play or a kicker misses a kick.

    For the life of me I don't understand why now and then people don't scrutinize the regular season vs. postseason numbers of, say, Marvin Harrison. I haven't done so, but to a lay person it seems that in some key games in the postseason he totally disappeared. Sure he had his great moments, but I'd guess he under performed relative to his consistent regular season production. A LOT of defensive players did too.
    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Last time I looked, 11 is a number. So is 11.

    People will pull stats to make their case that he is. 8 one and dones is pretty poor too for the 'greatest'.
    There you go. He dismissed Peyton's actual performance numbers, and went solely with the fact that they lost. That argument is saying that if Peyton was the greatest, then he'd be able to make up for everything/everyone else and post a winning record. He couldn't, so therefore, he's not the greatest.

    It's funny how Brady puts up pretty much the exact same stats as Peyton and is the reason they win, while Peyton is the reason they lose. Same stats, same level of play, different team outcomes, different conclusions.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  16. #38

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The only difference?

    I missed where the 2013 Colts came into the postseason with the #1 passing offense in the history of Earth, like they did in 2004, or with the #1 defense in the league (points allowed) paired with the #3 offense (point scored) in 2007. I missed all of the pro bowl wide receivers, offensive linemen, etc. on this team, relative the teams of 5-10 years ago.

    The 2013 team seemed to get more done with less, when it mattered most. Well, at least winning a game. Maybe a little of it is quarterbacking. Maybe a lot of it is better coaching, play-calling, game-planning, execution, etc.


    [/COLOR]
    like nobody on this planet seems to.

    100% blame is an absurd contention, as is 0% blame
    He threw 4 picks in inclement weather and tried to do too much to win. You know Irsay was having flashbacks of the last time a Colts team was at Foxboro in January. Despite the injuries the way the team was built hasn't changed it lives and dies by its QB. Those teams don't win championships is my point.

  17. #39

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    I'm still not seeing where Pacerdude says that Peyton Manning is the sole reason that his team lost any particular game.

    He is dissing Peyton for being a leader and MVP of 8 different one-and-done teams, seemingly suggesting that he might bear a bit more than 0% responsibility for that record, given the rather large sample size.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  19. #40

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I'm still not seeing where Pacerdude says that Peyton Manning is the sole reason that his team lost any particular game.

    He is dissing Peyton for being a leader and MVP of 8 different one-and-done teams, seemingly suggesting that he might bear a bit more than 0% responsibility for that record, given the rather large sample size.
    So while both are foolish and ill informed. They are different things.

  20. #41

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I'm still not seeing where Pacerdude says that Peyton Manning is the sole reason that his team lost any particular game.

    He is dissing Peyton for being a leader and MVP of 8 different one-and-done teams, seemingly suggesting that he might bear a bit more than 0% responsibility for that record, given the rather large sample size.

    Who said he was faultless? You assume because we don't think he bears sole responsibility doesn't mean he was ever blameless however even when he plays well and the Colts lose its "Well he can't win big games" .

    Its one thing to criticize him its another to be inconsistent about it which is the case with Manning so even if he manages to win on Sunday it won't change anything.

    People already have made up their minds and that's fine just own it. Just spare us all the never ending "legacy narrative" that changes every year.

  21. #42
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    A good Mike Lupica column detailing Belichick's thoughts on going up against Manning. Decent read:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...icle-1.1596209

  22. #43
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Greatest regular season QB ever - yes.

    Post-season - mediocre. Look at the numbers. Look at them ........
    The record talk angers me. Dungy is regarded as one of the greatest coaches ever and his record is 9-10 in postseason
    Smothered Chicken!

  23. #44
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    So many games could have been won if it wasn't for bad luck. Games like 2003 AFC title where the Colts were rigged by a non holding call on the NE defense, 2005 Divisional where our liquored up kicker missed a FG, 2007 where Marvin fumbled, 2008 wild card where the defense couldn't stop Sproles, SB XLIV where Baskett doesn't know how to catch, and unfortunate end in 2010 to the Jets
    Smothered Chicken!

  24. #45

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    ^^ I think the only one of those that would fall into the BAD LUCK category is the non-call. The others ?????

  25. #46

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    The record talk angers me. Dungy is regarded as one of the greatest coaches ever and his record is 9-10 in postseason
    Record by itself is only part of the perception IMO. For example, in the 15 games between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, I believe it is true that the favored team, by point spread, won all 15 times. Thus I think it has been a series of pretty much holding serve. If you have the better overall team, you win.

    The thing that does stick in the back of people's minds, though it is never really spelled out, in the other playoff disappointments is that in the eight Manning one-and-ones, seven were as favorites (only in the 41-0 Jets loss were they underdogs). So the losses came regularly and when they were not expected. PM also has had 50-some come-from-behind game winning drives in the regular season, and only one in the postseason.

    Here is a so-so column that goes over the one-and-dones and discusses the degree to which any poor plays by Peyton were involved in any of those losses. The data shows that almost always the losses had very little to do with him making mistakes. The author seems to draw a curious conclusion, though, which is why I said it's a so-so article. He twisted it to his agenda IMO and argued that in the postseason PM doesn't make mistakes but he is also too worried about making mistakes that he is hesitant to take chances to make the spectacular plays that seem to come so easily in the regular season. I don't buy his conclusions at all, in other words, but it is a nice summary of those 8 games and establishing whether it was 0% on PM of 100% on PM. It seems a lot closer to 0% to me.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013...ne-dones-fault
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  26. #47
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Yeah, the Vandershank was hideous, but history has put waaaaaaaay too much emphasis on that miss. For starters, the Steelers' defense completely owned the Colts throughout that game. Then the Colts were gift-wrapped an overturned Polamalalalaoulalou interception that the NFL later admitted was a mistake. At the end of the game, you had the surreal Bettis fumble on the endzone which gave the Colts a miraculous opportunity, but IIRC, Manning tried a few too many hero balls which set up Vandy for a 46 yarder, which certainly wasn't a chip shot. We should have went to Edge way more throughout that game, which sadly was his last as a Colt. The shank was an inexcusable miss for a quality NFL kicker, but it never should have come out to that. That game was lost because their defense got the best of our offense.

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  28. #48

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    So many games could have been won if it wasn't for bad luck. Games like 2003 AFC title where the Colts were rigged by a non holding call on the NE defense, 2005 Divisional where our liquored up kicker missed a FG, 2007 where Marvin fumbled, 2008 wild card where the defense couldn't stop Sproles, SB XLIV where Baskett doesn't know how to catch, and unfortunate end in 2010 to the Jets
    true, bad luck /bad calls play a huge roll. Like in the 2006 AFC title game where the league officials later admitted that a game-changing pass interference call on on Ellis Hobbs was completely bogus.

    http://blogs.providencejournal.com/s...l-our-bad.html

    Then there was other cases: a helmet catch, a Welker drop, a Gronk high ankle sprain, etc. A yes, good luck many occasions too. I have always thought that the Patriots #1, #3, and #5-best teams in terms of talent (2004, 2003, 2001) won Super Bowls, and #2, #4 , #6, #7, and #8 did not (2007, 2011, 2006, 2012, 2013).

    Does anyone think that the 2006 Colts was their best team of that decade?

    NFL's "our bad" for the Hobbs call:

    The NFL has admitted that it was wrong when Patriots’ cornerback Ellis Hobbs was flagged for defensive pass interference on Reggie Wayne in New England’s AFC Championship loss to Indianapolis last Sunday. The bad call ultimately led to the tying score for the Colts, who advanced to the Super Bowl with a 38-34 victory.

    On the play -- second-and-7 from the Pats’ 19-yard line -- Hobbs was face-guarding Wayne in the back left corner of the end zone. The pass from Peyton Manning hit Hobbs on the back of his left arm, and after the game the second-year corner, who combined with Asante Samuel to give a great effort on Pro Bowlers Wayne and Marvin Harrison, said he never touched his man.


    But the flag was thrown, and pass interference is not one of the calls that coaches can challenge. Indy got first-and-goal from the one, and on the next play, Manning found wide-open former Patriot Dan Klecko for a touchdown. The Colts also converted a two-point play to tie the game, 21-21.


    On jaguars.com, the website of the Jacksonville Jaguars, league official Dean Blandino confirmed to reporter Vic Ketchman that it was a bad call. Blandino was in the replay booth at the RCA Dome and said Hobbs should not have been called for pass interference, citing that he did nothing to impede Wayne from catching the ball, and did not make contact with the receiver.


    Blandino said that face-guarding, which game referee Bill Carollo did not cite as the reason for the penalty, has not been illegal for several years.


    One Patriots player reached yesterday commented, "What can you do?," when told about the league’s admission.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  29. #49
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    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    If you have the better overall team, you win.
    I really don't understand why you keep directing your comments towards those of us who are defending PM, especially when you say the exact things we are saying just differently. I get that you think our assessment of what PacerDude said is wrong, but considering he hasn't clarified what he meant nor said we are wrong in our assessment of what he meant, I think the assessment is spot on.

    The above comment is exactly why only looking at the playoff record is worthless, when trying to judge one players particular performances.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  30. #50

    Default Re: Peyton Manning's legacy if Denver wins SB XLVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    That game was lost because their defense got the best of our offense.
    That game was lost becuase Nick Harper's wife/girlfriend/whomever stabbed him in the leg a few days before the game. If he gets by Rothlesbergerbasdfnhkjasfbger - he's gone for 6.

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