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Thread: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

  1. #76

    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    GEORGE HILL POISONED OUR WATER SUPPLY, BURNED OUR CROPS, AND DELIVERED A PLAGUE DOWN UNTO OUR HOUSES!

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    You are exactly right, and I hate using stats as an argument. I used them strictly as a means to illustrate that Collison isn't some bum when he's been allowed to play. He actually shoots at high %s, plays solid defense, defends the full length of the court, and is a willing passer.
    That's fair. I agree with all of that.
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  4. #78
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Cant fault GHill when he plays against Curry, They set countless illegal screen on Hill all night long.
    But I did think he look completely over matched against the Dragic, who in my opinion is a top 5 pg.
    I agree that against Dragic, he looked half a step slow all night. But remember he almost didn't play due to a thigh bruise (from one of the previous night's illegal screens). I think he was slightly hampered by the injury.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    You are exactly right, and I hate using stats as an argument. I used them strictly as a means to illustrate that Collison isn't some bum when he's been allowed to play. He actually shoots at high %s, plays solid defense, defends the full length of the court, and is a willing passer.
    I can certainly agree with this. Collison is a good player. Our offensive system was just never good for PGs. Hill is suffering from the same issue now. We're not an offense in which a PG can thrive.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    GEORGE HILL POISONED OUR WATER SUPPLY, BURNED OUR CROPS, AND DELIVERED A PLAGUE DOWN UNTO OUR HOUSES!
    See, I did not know this. As an out of the area fan, learning this changes my opinion. We should probably trade him.

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  9. #81

    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Lowry has to be considered a much better player than Hill right now. Lowry is arguably playing as well as any guard not named Chris Paul and Curry this year.

    But this speculation makes no sense. From the Pacers perspective, why mess with something that works for a likely 4 month rental. Lowry will want more than 8 mil / year. One of Lowry and Stephenson would definitely have to walk.

    From the Raptors perspective, what do you ask? I imagine at least George Hill + multiple 1st round picks, or Lance Stephenson. Anything less, and they are better off just trying to re-sign Lowry. Worst case scenario, if Lowry walks, they'll have max cap space.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    I could see us trying to add another piece, just not sure it's Lowry at this point. Hill's one of the leaders of this team.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    If you trade for Lowry, it's to let him go so you can keep Lance and fill in with a lesser PG next year.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic P View Post
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    Hill, Granger, and Ian are the only players you really can't criticize on this board. Roy is a distant fourth.

    Edit: Hill is an average defender and subpar point guard we can definitely upgrade the position with a guy like Lowry and my dream pickup Dragic. When DJ got to play with the starters last year he was a totally different player.
    When DJ played with the starters last year, IE starting for an injured Hill, the team was much worse.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    When DJ played with the starters last year, IE starting for an injured Hill, the team was much worse.

    Yeah, it's amazing how easily people have forgotten about Game 5 in NY in which the team looked weak without Hill.

    Hill's only fault is that he plays with four starters who are complete studs, which allows people to take him for granted. But this team has done nothing but win since George Hill arrived on the scene. He's been a major part of our success, both on the court and in the locker room.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Isaiah Thomas shot 31 times and made 13 shots.
    ON FIRE!! I was there in person and can attest that the ball actually did catch on fire ala NBA JAM at one point.

    It's funny cause I'm pretty sure I saw PG and Lance trying to guard Thornton basically all night and that wasn't really working out. Time to trade both of those bums because Thornton's line was just a tad better.



    You know what the issue ACTUALLY is? It's how they are playing the high PnR, often having the big switch fully which results in Roy/Ian getting forced back by the dribble and allowing the mid-range 2. I assume this is by choice because they felt like this was a lesser shot or perhaps teams have just started exploiting how the Pacers were defending.

    Consider that perhaps GSW showed a template in the 2nd half of that game and then everyone else copied it before the Pacers could really recover and adjust due to so much travel.


    But Paul was moved onto guys like Dragic pretty early in the game, and the Suns either switched out of it using a play or PG just flat-out got beat also.



    Freaking Hill is putting up similar numbers to Lowry except mostly at a lower usage rate, he's sharing the ball and court with other, bigger stars and is seeing some of his numbers dip. I mean Hill is making shots at a similar rate to Lowry, so how is Lowry "better" on offense? Does anyone want to stand up and shout "I'd rather see Lowry with the ball than Lance or Paul!!" Then maybe calm the eff down when it comes to moving Hill. He's doing what he is supposed to do, and he's nowhere near the only guard/wing giving up shots.

    You know who the hot Nugget shooter was? It wasn't Nate, it was freaking Wilson Chandler who was being guarded by.....PAUL FREAKING GEORGE. Chandler was giving him fits and Faried was leaving West in the dust on every possession change. That was the main issue in the first half of the Denver game. Then throw in the random silly Lance gambles for backdoor burns or drive-bys and you've got nearly all the team's defensive issues for the entire trip.

    The game they won, Sacto, involved Paul coming up with some big stops late. That changed the game from the Pacers getting blown out to Pacers barely winning. But the blowout portion was when he wasn't coming up with those stops. They had a dramatic effect because they hadn't been happening most of the night.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    We have the best record in the NBA and are coming off of Game 7 of the ECF's. I can't think of a better time to trade for a new starting point guard....

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We have the best record in the NBA and are coming off of Game 7 of the ECF's. I can't think of a better time to trade for a new starting point guard....
    Yeah, especially a ball dominant one coming from a team where he has a green light to do whatever he wants. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.


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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    I think Hill is a good player for this team, he does a lot of things pretty well, and he doesn't need to dominate the ball to be effective. The only problem I have with him is he seems to struggle against the Heat...whether it's sloppy ball handling, his shot not falling, or Chalmers. You bring in Lowry, and I think you run the risk of negatively impacting our team chemistry which is one of this team's greatest strengths.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    ON FIRE!! I was there in person and can attest that the ball actually did catch on fire ala NBA JAM at one point.

    It's funny cause I'm pretty sure I saw PG and Lance trying to guard Thornton basically all night and that wasn't really working out. Time to trade both of those bums because Thornton's line was just a tad better.



    You know what the issue ACTUALLY is? It's how they are playing the high PnR, often having the big switch fully which results in Roy/Ian getting forced back by the dribble and allowing the mid-range 2. I assume this is by choice because they felt like this was a lesser shot or perhaps teams have just started exploiting how the Pacers were defending.

    Consider that perhaps GSW showed a template in the 2nd half of that game and then everyone else copied it before the Pacers could really recover and adjust due to so much travel.


    But Paul was moved onto guys like Dragic pretty early in the game, and the Suns either switched out of it using a play or PG just flat-out got beat also.



    Freaking Hill is putting up similar numbers to Lowry except mostly at a lower usage rate, he's sharing the ball and court with other, bigger stars and is seeing some of his numbers dip. I mean Hill is making shots at a similar rate to Lowry, so how is Lowry "better" on offense? Does anyone want to stand up and shout "I'd rather see Lowry with the ball than Lance or Paul!!" Then maybe calm the eff down when it comes to moving Hill. He's doing what he is supposed to do, and he's nowhere near the only guard/wing giving up shots.

    You know who the hot Nugget shooter was? It wasn't Nate, it was freaking Wilson Chandler who was being guarded by.....PAUL FREAKING GEORGE. Chandler was giving him fits and Faried was leaving West in the dust on every possession change. That was the main issue in the first half of the Denver game. Then throw in the random silly Lance gambles for backdoor burns or drive-bys and you've got nearly all the team's defensive issues for the entire trip.

    The game they won, Sacto, involved Paul coming up with some big stops late. That changed the game from the Pacers getting blown out to Pacers barely winning. But the blowout portion was when he wasn't coming up with those stops. They had a dramatic effect because they hadn't been happening most of the night.
    this so much. they would set the screen, and rather than hill fighting through it, roy would step out to challenge thomas, while Hill would switch onto the screener. This is clearly a defensive system thing, as we have seen all year, the perimeter defenders funnel guys into Roy, it usually works well. That little mid range jumper isn't the greatest shot over Roy. Thomas had some success with it and when Roy challenged it harder, he would miss, but often it lead to a offensive rebound. So Roy usually just challenged it a bit.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    You know who's got great numbers on a winning team that we should totally grass-is-greener trade for?!?!

    Gerald Green.



    Bulls title PGs
    BJ Armstrong
    Ron Harper - shot 49.5% eFG and was 4 ast, 4 reb per 36 for a team that won 72 games. The next year was similar 52% eFG and 4-4, but both of these seasons involved the shorter 3pt arc where everyone's 3PA and 3P% were higher.

    Hill this season
    52.5% eFG, 4.4, 3.8 reb ast - basically identical or better than what Harper or BJ provided. And Harper was such a stopper that in 1998 Phil Jackson chose to move him off Jax and put Pippen on him instead.



    There is no such thing as a full superstar team, not even in Miami where they gimp along with Chalmers and whatever PF they can find to put out there. Many of the greatest teams had several guys playing big minutes of similar or lesser skill compared to Hill. Later people will recall this team by thinking of Paul, Lance and Roy, a little West and then some Hill, Scola and Granger. Think of the 1998 Bulls - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc, some Harper, and barely Longley and Kerr and really no one else that you easily remember as being an impact player from that team. This is what great teams look like. They don't look like 5 all-stars let alone 8.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We have the best record in the NBA and are coming off of Game 7 of the ECF's. I can't think of a better time to trade for a new starting point guard....
    But we must prepare...prepare for the Second Coming...

    conform or be cast out...

    But seriously, while I don't think GH is the quickest defender in the history of mankind (especially when trying to stay in front of Paul, Westbrook and Nelson) is a pretty gritty defender who doesn't get a lot of help from our Cs. And his effort to fight over picks is superior to Lance's by a large multiple.

    Since Roy is unable to recover AT ALL when more than 4 ft from the rim. The high PnR makes Hill look bad. A guy will always do better when the other defender forces the ballhandler to go up and wider while still recovering back to his guy. Foster was the best, Hans was good and West and Scola do a servicable job. Roy knows better. The game would be over by the time Roy recovered. And things wouldn't be any different for any other PG we bring in.

    Imagine trying to fight over that pick (of a guy who weighs more than 100 lbs than you) a few dozen times a game and Roy just sinks away. pretty tough.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    this so much. they would set the screen, and rather than hill fighting through it, roy would step out to challenge thomas, while Hill would switch onto the screener. This is clearly a defensive system thing, as we have seen all year, the perimeter defenders funnel guys into Roy, it usually works well. That little mid range jumper isn't the greatest shot over Roy. Thomas had some success with it and when Roy challenged it harder, he would miss, but often it lead to a offensive rebound. So Roy usually just challenged it a bit.
    Teams have intentionally tried to put Roy into no man's land, and when you add in road foul issues they've been able to really neutralize him. West and Scola have struggled to help him very much lately, especially protecting the DEF REB. They are trying to force Roy away from the rim, either he follows the big man pick which leaves him away from the rim or he's caught trying to defend the dribble attack. What we just saw was a ton of teams satisfied with driving hard then pulling up around the FT line. If Roy leans out to defend - OREB as you say, and if he falls back then they've been hitting a lot of them.

    What the Pacers need to do is move the wing defender on the side the big moves to out to defend him as he comes off the PnR, let Hill/CJ follow the PG roll with some hedge help from Roy, and then let Roy retreat to defend the rim more against a PG drive or the wing that's been left if he tries to come to the lane for a pass.

    That choice means giving up some corner 3 looks because Roy won't get out there in time and the wing won't be able to recover. I suppose you could hedge help rather than fully committing to coming to help on the big, especially if you don't think his shot is a threat from out on top. That would allow for better recovery to the corner.

    It's all about matchups because if it's West helping off a PF that can't hit deep corner shots then this works great. If it's Paul or Danny leaving a deadly 3pt SF then you are in trouble and have a tough choice.


    Frankly Thorton especially outshot his talent level, and even Chuck Em was very hot by his standards. We saw him miss tons of open jumpers here in Indy, and he's been wildly up and down the last month in Phoenix. You'd hate to overreact to solve a "hot shooter" problem.

    Thornton went 16/27 and 9/12 from 3. Both are the highest FG%/3P% of his career when taking more than 20 FGA and more than 10 3PA (8 total times). He's only score 42 one other time and that involved a bunch of made FTs rather than making tons of FG/3P shots. Say what you will about Hill, but he wasn't the main/only guy out there with Thornton and I'm pretty sure Thornton has faced plenty of weaker backcourts during his full 5 year career. His numbers weren't just about the Pacers, they were an outlier for him in many ways and partially due to the loss of Cousins and Gay just prior to the game.

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

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    Frankly Thorton especially outshot his talent level, and even Chuck Em was very hot by his standards. We saw him miss tons of open jumpers here in Indy, and he's been wildly up and down the last month in Phoenix. You'd hate to overreact to solve a "hot shooter" problem.

    Thornton went 16/27 and 9/12 from 3. Both are the highest FG%/3P% of his career when taking more than 20 FGA and more than 10 3PA (8 total times). He's only score 42 one other time and that involved a bunch of made FTs rather than making tons of FG/3P shots. Say what you will about Hill, but he wasn't the main/only guy out there with Thornton and I'm pretty sure Thornton has faced plenty of weaker backcourts during his full 5 year career. His numbers weren't just about the Pacers, they were an outlier for him in many ways and partially due to the loss of Cousins and Gay just prior to the game.
    Regardless of teams getting hot on the Pacers the offenisve efficiency is a real problem and I am not sure how to fix it but I do know that sacraficing the defensive efficiency is not that way to do it.

    Being ranked 18th which was barely better than last year is a cause for concern though.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Yeah, the trip had me so busy that I'm just now settling in and looking at advanced stats and some DVR footage, but something I just noticed was how awful the Pacers shooting was in the 4th in Denver when they had a real shot to win the game still. Down 10 starting the quarter and they go 6-19 from 2...and the big thing that stood out to me was how much their blown possessions turned into track meets going the other way.

    Score the ball better, protect it a bit better and the defense will benefit from being able to set up more often. I bet they gave up at least 20 points to Denver just on garbage offense quickly taken the other way. At times Denver tried like hell to ruin the game with missed shots, but the Pacers just threw up junk. Paul, West, Scola and Granger really stood out on that count. In the 4th Paul went 1-5 and West went 0-5, the go-to scorers giving you a 1-10 when you are trying to comeback and win.

    Put 5 more in for a 6-10 and that's 10 points, plus you probably remove 4 points at least that went the other way after bad misses. You win the game right there.


    There is a reason my wife threw the BAMF sign away after that game. That's my boy but ugh...

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yeah, the trip had me so busy that I'm just now settling in and looking at advanced stats and some DVR footage, but something I just noticed was how awful the Pacers shooting was in the 4th in Denver when they had a real shot to win the game still. Down 10 starting the quarter and they go 6-19 from 2...and the big thing that stood out to me was how much their blown possessions turned into track meets going the other way.

    Score the ball better, protect it a bit better and the defense will benefit from being able to set up more often. I bet they gave up at least 20 points to Denver just on garbage offense quickly taken the other way. At times Denver tried like hell to ruin the game with missed shots, but the Pacers just threw up junk. Paul, West, Scola and Granger really stood out on that count. In the 4th Paul went 1-5 and West went 0-5, the go-to scorers giving you a 1-10 when you are trying to comeback and win.

    Put 5 more in for a 6-10 and that's 10 points, plus you probably remove 4 points at least that went the other way after bad misses. You win the game right there.

    There is a reason my wife threw the BAMF sign away after that game. That's my boy but ugh...
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    There is no such thing as a full superstar team, not even in Miami where they gimp along with Chalmers and whatever PF they can find to put out there.
    No doubt.

    The only question for me is if we can afford to keep everybody, because we're as close to a superstar team as possible.

    Given the choice to keep 4 of our 5 current starters, who would you choose to lose?

    I've never been of the opinion that Hill isn't good enough to keep. But he might be too good for us to afford... if we want to keep Lance.
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Superstar team? I'm seeing one superstar (and he's not done becoming one yet), a great defensive center with a dash of offense, and .... ? How are we a superstar team?

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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    No doubt.

    The only question for me is if we can afford to keep everybody, because we're as close to a superstar team as possible.

    Given the choice to keep 4 of our 5 current starters, who would you choose to lose?

    I've never been of the opinion that Hill isn't good enough to keep. But he might be too good for us to afford... if we want to keep Lance.
    This. It's not about whether or not he's productive; he is. It's about whether or not his $8M per year salary could be more efficiently spent (i.e. Lance and a MLE-level PG versus Hill and a SG replacement).

  37. #100
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    Default Re: ESPN Insider: Do Pacers have best shot at Lowry?

    Ok so we trade George Hill bring in Lowry and then let him walk this offseason, we give Lance his ransom, which we might be able to do anyway, and then what? We're a starter short with David West on the bad side of 30 and you think PG won't remember you trading away half of the G2 zone? I mean this trade makes literally no sense unless your goal is to see if you can destroy the culture Bird has built.

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