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Thread: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Once again, paying an average point guard $8 mil per year is simply horrible decision making from the front office. Decent point guards are like running backs in football, a dime a dozen. Absolutely zero reason to overpay for one, even if it's by $1-3 mil.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Once again, paying an average point guard $8 mil per year is simply horrible decision making from the front office. Decent point guards are like running backs in football, a dime a dozen. Absolutely zero reason to overpay for one, even if it's by $1-3 mil.
    Are you able to name 5 PGs who aren't on rookie deals that can play good perimeter D and knock down 3s at a good percentage that makes less than $8mil a yr?

  3. #53

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Are you able to name 5 PGs who aren't on rookie deals that can play good perimeter D and knock down 3s at a good percentage that makes less than $8mil a yr?
    Practically every team in the league has quality point guard. And the fact that so many of these teams have rookie point guards doing that very thing, is my point. Every year, quality point guards enter the league who can carry that load. I'd even rather have CJ Watson at $2mil per, than George Hill at $8mil per since the drop off in production between the two is far less than losing a player like Lance or Scola. All but maybe 5 point guards in the league are easily replaceable.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Why do you think the Pacers have no interest in Granger at all? If the team can't keep Lance why wouldn't they want to keep Granger? It is unlikely that you will find someone better than Granger. To add to that Granger wouldn't have to learn the system or how to play with the other players. It would be idiotic to not want to keep Granger no matter what happens with Lance.
    Because Granger is a shadow of the player he used to be and that is not going to get much better. He is not in the Pacers future no matter how much people want to think so. But to me the real problem is the Hill contract. They way overpaid for him and now his contract may cost them Lance. The Mahimi contract didn't help either. Could have had him for alot less. They better keep Lance if they want to be serious contenders because he is the x-factor. He can become an even better player than he is now. I find it funny how many people wanted to write him off and give Granger the starting nod this year. There is not comparison between the two players now and Lance can become a much better player than Granger ever was.

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  6. #55

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    So with George's new salary counted for, it looks like the pacers have $7 mil to work with. To stay under the tax and sign Lance you have to find a way to get rid of Copeland and maybe even Mahinmi. This could get us to $14 mil to play with and definitely keep Lance and maybe bring in another vet (or Danny?). It would hurt to not having a backup big or a 1st round pick but you need someone in that spot. Maybe Stanko can come over (do we still have him?)

    I am not too worried about keeping Lance because they calculate the tax as your salary at the trade deadline. So we could trade Cope as a $3 mil expiring contract and not forced into a trade in the off-season like Gerald Green.

    I have been saying it and still believe that the Simons should go over the tax. Like it or not, the city only started supporting the team very recently. It took a hugely memorable playoff series, a super fast start and the best record in the league for attendance to really pick up. It was definitely in the bottom third for many years prior. Just pay the extra $5-10$ mil in taxes and keep the best team in the league intact. I am sure revenues will grow enough from increased ticket sales and merchandise to at least offset some of that expense. But more importantly, it keeps the Pacers from falling. Simon can't afford a mediocre team because interest and revenue will fall hard. Plls I think the new CBA actually gives tax paying teams a piece of the tax sharing.

    Or maybe his idea of success is to contend and be relevant every year like we were for over a decade with Reggie. Bur damn it would be real nice to get the franchise's first NBA championship. Maybe this year maybe not, but we are sooo close

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    I'll leave the contract negotiations to Mr. Bird.

    1-year contending window? No. This team has too many young, valuable pieces with great chemistry to not be a top tier team for the next 3-5 years. 1-year championship? Doubtful, but maybe. This is as good a shot as I think this era of Pacers basketball has at winning a title. It may be a very slight margin, but I likely won't be as confident next October. For comparison, I 100% believe this team wins it all, and I've said that since June.
    Forever struggling to convince myself "In Larry we trust"
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Because Granger is a shadow of the player he used to be and that is not going to get much better. He is not in the Pacers future no matter how much people want to think so. But to me the real problem is the Hill contract. They way overpaid for him and now his contract may cost them Lance. The Mahimi contract didn't help either. Could have had him for alot less. They better keep Lance if they want to be serious contenders because he is the x-factor. He can become an even better player than he is now. I find it funny how many people wanted to write him off and give Granger the starting nod this year. There is not comparison between the two players now and Lance can become a much better player than Granger ever was.
    So Granger comes back plays well for most of a 10 game period, then struggles for a couple games (which happens to coincide with a 5 game west coast road trip), and we are already writing him off as just a shell of his former self? Really? Granger didn't play for a year, it isn't unexpected that he would have some conditioning and inconsistency issues right now. Wait until the end of the season before you start judging what kind of player Granger will be going forward.

    As long as this team has Paul and Roy they will be serious contenders. This team took Miami to 7 games with a Lance playing at a similar level as Granger has played most of his season so far, and a much worse bench. They were a serious contender last year without Lance playing as well as he has this year, and will be a serious contender going forward with or without Lance. Just like the Thunder are a serious contender with or without Harden.

    No one was writing off Stephenson, some people just thought it would be advantageous to have Stephenson coming off the bench. If Granger had stayed healthy it very well may have been true. There is a huge difference there.

    I would say West is more overpaid than Hill and Mahinmi combined. Their importance to this team is vastly underrated, especially Mahinmi's. Without either of them we would not have by far the best defense in the league. Meanwhile you could replace West with just about any starting quality PF, and our defense would barely suffer if at all. In some cases it might improve greatly. The only players who you are going to be able to find that would be able to replace Hill's and Mahinmi's defensive impact (not including rookie contracts for obvious reasons) would cost more than either player.

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  10. #58

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Bird already said that he will just find another piece to plug in if we cant keep lance. Losing lance is not the end of the world, with that being said I do believe bird will make the necessary moves to keep lance if the trade is right for the team. Lance is a product of our system, is he talented? Yes. Does he make boneheaded plays still? Yes. However I do believe Lance will be loyal and maybe take a few million less a year to stay here

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  12. #59

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revikan View Post
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    However I do believe Lance will be loyal and maybe take a few million less a year to stay here
    I can't laugh enough at this.

    When, in the history of the NBA (or ANY of pro sports) has a player ever taken a few million less to be loyal to a team ??

    A hundred grand here or there - yeah, maybe. But a few million ?? Just not going to happen.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revikan View Post
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    However I do believe Lance will be loyal and maybe take a few million less a year to stay here
    There's no way that happens. None of the other players on our team have taken less to stay here, so why would Lance do it when he's been making pennies for four years? I remember two years ago when people were saying that maybe Roy would take less out of loyalty, but he was ready to bolt to Portland in a heartbeat because of the money. Lance has been making nothing by NBA standards and he's going to be ready to finally cash in.

    I'm sure that he'd prefer to stay here if everything else was equal, but the money is going to be the driving factor as it is with almost every other athlete. You can be happy anywhere if you're getting paid tens of millions to play basketball.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I can't laugh enough at this.

    When, in the history of the NBA (or ANY of pro sports) has a player ever taken a few million less to be loyal to a team ??

    A hundred grand here or there - yeah, maybe. But a few million ?? Just not going to happen.
    I am sure it happens, when they are 30+ looking for one final contract and played for the same team his whole career, not when they are 23 and looking for their first big pay day.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I am sure it happens, when they are 30+ looking for one final contract and played for the same team his whole career, not when they are 23 and looking for their first big pay day.
    Yeah, you've had your Karl Malones, Gary Paytons, and Ray Allens take less at the very end of their careers so that they can win a title. But that's after they made a bajillion dollars for a long time. Lance OTOH is a 23 year old who has been paid a total of $3,435,000 for four years, which is the NBA equivalent of living on welfare. This guy has been watching his teammates make a ton of jack over the years and he's going to be ready to finally cash in himself. He's earned it and there's no way that he leaves a substantial amount of of money on the table.

  18. #63

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Please be gentle with me. If we win the ECF or even the championship has anyone thought about a trade of David West for a young player on a rookie contract. This would hopefully clear enough salary to keep both Danny(if he is deemed healthy) and Lance. It would also give Scola more time with the starters while giving the Pacers a long look at how much we want to keep him. $4.5 million for Luis, the MLE($5.4 million) for Danny coming off the bench at the 3 and 4 and 8-10 million for Lance?

  19. #64
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Stern is looking to get a new TV deal done before he leaves and says he's close. This could be a huge factor in this situation. If the salary cap goes up by a few million then we could have enough $ to sign Lance. I think Lance stays, even if Simon pays luxury taxes for a year or 2.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    To tie the championship window to Lance staying or going is obsscene and insulting the rest of the team as well as the president.
    As LB said, if he gets to expensive we get someone else.

    Paul George, Roy Hibbert, David West, George Hill, X
    who ever X is, if experienced savvy and a decent defender, we are very much in for a chamionship as long as we maintain a decent quality bench, where the money is thinner and needs to be invested wisely, yes we have a decent bench, ok good, but dropping half of them to keep one starter is not the solution to extending a window, that's already much longer than 1 year.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  22. #66
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by fwpacerfan View Post
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    Stern is looking to get a new TV deal done before he leaves and says he's close. This could be a huge factor in this situation. If the salary cap goes up by a few million then we could have enough $ to sign Lance. I think Lance stays, even if Simon pays luxury taxes for a year or 2.
    Which part of "we are not going into the luxury tax" (LB, mr SImon) do you not understand or doubt here ? is there any reason to doubt what Bird or Simon are saying? (considering they are signing the cheques) or is it the lack of understanding of what it pertains?

    going into the LT doesn't only mean that you pay X for Y in a progressive scale, but it also means you get less of the shared income and NONE of the poenalty income, which by careful estimates is about 7 mio for the P's this year so going over means dropping that income as well, see, 10 mio now not only costs you the 10 mio in salary and perhaps 3 mio in tax but it also costs you the other income say 7 mio so it ends up costing you 10 mio more aka 20 mio, and trust me, Lance is not worth that kind of money, not even near.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  23. #67

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    So Granger comes back plays well for most of a 10 game period, then struggles for a couple games (which happens to coincide with a 5 game west coast road trip), and we are already writing him off as just a shell of his former self? Really? Granger didn't play for a year, it isn't unexpected that he would have some conditioning and inconsistency issues right now. Wait until the end of the season before you start judging what kind of player Granger will be going forward.

    As long as this team has Paul and Roy they will be serious contenders. This team took Miami to 7 games with a Lance playing at a similar level as Granger has played most of his season so far, and a much worse bench. They were a serious contender last year without Lance playing as well as he has this year, and will be a serious contender going forward with or without Lance. Just like the Thunder are a serious contender with or without Harden.

    No one was writing off Stephenson, some people just thought it would be advantageous to have Stephenson coming off the bench. If Granger had stayed healthy it very well may have been true. There is a huge difference there.

    I would say West is more overpaid than Hill and Mahinmi combined. Their importance to this team is vastly underrated, especially Mahinmi's. Without either of them we would not have by far the best defense in the league. Meanwhile you could replace West with just about any starting quality PF, and our defense would barely suffer if at all. In some cases it might improve greatly. The only players who you are going to be able to find that would be able to replace Hill's and Mahinmi's defensive impact (not including rookie contracts for obvious reasons) would cost more than either player.

    West very well could be overpaid but his value is much more than Hill and Mahimi. Did you not see how Hill just got torched by all these point guards on this trip. His defense is really overrated as is his leadership. You cannot pay that king of money for someone that average and inconsistent. Mahimi gives you a little defense and a little rebounding but you can't throw him the ball. I just said we could have gotten him for less money and we could have. You can't spend all your time hoping Hill will be consistent and wondering if he will. There are too many people on here that are not objective. You can't just overlook a player's weaknesses because he is a good guy. It is not true the Pacers will stay serious contenders just because they have Hibbert and George. You think Danny will improve as the year goes on, so do I but I don't think he will ever get back anywhere close to where he was. I hope I am wrong but don't think so. They have a real chance this year so they better make the most of it. You never know what can happen.

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  25. #68
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Which part of "we are not going into the luxury tax" (LB, mr SImon) do you not understand or doubt here ? is there any reason to doubt what Bird or Simon are saying? (considering they are signing the cheques) or is it the lack of understanding of what it pertains?

    going into the LT doesn't only mean that you pay X for Y in a progressive scale, but it also means you get less of the shared income and NONE of the poenalty income, which by careful estimates is about 7 mio for the P's this year so going over means dropping that income as well, see, 10 mio now not only costs you the 10 mio in salary and perhaps 3 mio in tax but it also costs you the other income say 7 mio so it ends up costing you 10 mio more aka 20 mio, and trust me, Lance is not worth that kind of money, not even near.
    Well Simon has paid the LT before which to me shows he will do it again if the team is competing for a championship. And while yes they would be losing out on revenue, lets not forget how much better attendance is this season and how much money can be generated from more playoff games. Not to mention winning teams = more popularity = more money.

    Simon wants to win. Of course Larry is going to say we aren't going into the LT because at the end of the day he has to play hardball here. But i do think there is a slight possibility Simon ok's going into the LT, especially if we win it all this season. And while Lance isn't worth that money, winning titles may be.

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  27. #69
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    When, in the history of the NBA (or ANY of pro sports) has a player ever taken a few million less to be loyal to a team ??

    A hundred grand here or there - yeah, maybe. But a few million ?? Just not going to happen.
    I think Paul George did.

    Anyone that thinks we are going to trade George Hill to free up salary space had better think again. I like George Hill, but who is going to take him for $8 million per year...for three more years?

    Copeland will be moved, if at all possible. If that doesn't free up enough money to re-sign Lance, we will find someone else. Bird has all ready made that statement as Revikan has stated.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by sav View Post
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    I think Paul George did.

    Anyone that thinks we are going to trade George Hill to free up salary space had better think again. I like George Hill, but who is going to take him for $8 million per year...for three more years?

    Copeland will be moved, if at all possible. If that doesn't free up enough money to re-sign Lance, we will find someone else. Bird has all ready made that statement as Revikan has stated.
    Westbrook did too even tho he qualified for the super max he stayed at the regular max.

    gilbert arenas did as well

    it's rare that it happens IMO but it's a possibility. Idk what it is but I think lance will take the money and bolt to be the "man"
    Last edited by ThA HoyA; 01-27-2014 at 05:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Well Simon has paid the LT before which to me shows he will do it again if the team is competing for a championship. And while yes they would be losing out on revenue, lets not forget how much better attendance is this season and how much money can be generated from more playoff games. Not to mention winning teams = more popularity = more money.

    Simon wants to win. Of course Larry is going to say we aren't going into the LT because at the end of the day he has to play hardball here. But i do think there is a slight possibility Simon ok's going into the LT, especially if we win it all this season. And while Lance isn't worth that money, winning titles may be.
    The Simons went into the LT for a couple seasons, Herb Simon has never gone over on his own. I obviously don't know much about the inner workings and relationships, but what some people have said on this board it was Mel who was always more passionate about the Pacers, while Herb was always more business like with them. If true it could have easily been that the only reason the Pacers went into the LT was because of Mel.

    While under only Herb we have only heard that they will not go over the LT. Could just be words with little to no backing, we most likely will find out this summer. Until proven otherwise though, I am going to assume no LT.

  30. #72

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    West very well could be overpaid but his value is much more than Hill and Mahimi. Did you not see how Hill just got torched by all these point guards on this trip. His defense is really overrated as is his leadership. You cannot pay that king of money for someone that average and inconsistent. Mahimi gives you a little defense and a little rebounding but you can't throw him the ball. I just said we could have gotten him for less money and we could have. You can't spend all your time hoping Hill will be consistent and wondering if he will. There are too many people on here that are not objective. You can't just overlook a player's weaknesses because he is a good guy. It is not true the Pacers will stay serious contenders just because they have Hibbert and George. You think Danny will improve as the year goes on, so do I but I don't think he will ever get back anywhere close to where he was. I hope I am wrong but don't think so. They have a real chance this year so they better make the most of it. You never know what can happen.



    To be fair though, Hill and Ian were brought in under that one Walsh off season. I think if Larry were here, he would've signed Lou Williams instead of Hill. Lou would've been cheaper. Or if he were the same price, he'd produce more. He at least has an off the dribble game, and can get to the basket at will. Almost as good as Lance if not as good. Hill just dribbles around screens and throws up tired floaters. Lou actually goes at the rim and can get to the line. He's no CP3, but he does look for his offense enough to keep defenses honest.

    Larry tried to trade Ian in the off-season. For Robin Lopez (currently in Portland). But New Orleans was looking to sign Tyreke Evans, and sought a deal that had them taking back no salary. We couldn't offer such a deal, so they sent him to Portland for some picks. Larry knows Ian sucks. When Larry returned, he flipped everyone Walsh brought in, and tried but failed to flip the last piece. Ian. I still believe Larry will find someone to replace Ian before the deadline. Larry knows Ian is bad, to the point where he and the front office even inquired about Andrew "no knees" Bynum. That's how little they think of Ian. Ian can't even put the ball into the hoop without losing it on a turnover.

    Question is, will Larry make a trade? Or sign someone who's floating out there who can play backup center. Or.....will Bynum be brought in? I also think Larry will make a trade for a back up guard. Lance plays too many minutes. Hence, this could be why some of our guys are gassed at the end of some games. If Lance can go to the bench in the 2nd quarter with everyone else, and we can bring in Scola, Cope, etc....then think of how dominant we'll be when Lance has had most of the 2nd quarter to rest. And we can throw the starters back out there with 3 minutes or so left before halftime.

    We do have options for a back up for Lance to play less minutes and not get gassed. Orlando Johnson and Solomon Hill. Problem is, Vogel doesn't feel they're good enough. And he's right. Orlando, not sure what his game is really. He hasn't nailed down a specialty or go to move yet. Solo is a rookie, so I am not gonna criticize him. Trading Danny for a Marcus Thornton, or Stuckey. Would free up minutes for Cope to back up PG. And give us a guard who is a lethal scorer off the bench. Thus Lance can get rest. We aren't good in b2b games, and rest is important for starters in those games.

    I still say shipping Danny and Solo to the Lakers for Pau and Nick Young is the way to go. We kill 2 birds with one stone. Back up center upgrade...CHECK. Someone to spell Lance from having to play too many minutes, so we can keep him fresh for the playoffs? CHECK. Losing Solo in that trade, means our third stringers are Orlando, Ian, and Sloan. We could actually have a 10 man rotation, with a bench of Scola, Cope, Pau, Nick, and CJ. Giving our starters rest and not having to worry about Lance being on the floor all the time because we lack a bench facilitator. Lakers would do the deal because they clear cap space.

    Danny's an expiring, Solo is a good piece they can groom to become a nice back up or maybe one of their future stars. If they need a sweetener, we can find a pick for them from someone else. As for re-signing Lance, well Pau's expiring which is about 20 million....will take care of that. Nick's got one more year on his deal so he doesn't hurt us. Plus, Butler, Sloan are gone at season's end, and Ian can be dealt to a team under the cap to open up more space. Also moving Hill to an equally cap friendly team would be an option. We could then look at a 2015-2016 roster of.....



    West
    PG
    Hibbert
    Lance
    Lou Williams/Jameer Nelson/ (via trade)


    Or if they wanna move Lance to be our point guard, with some offseason work..


    West
    PG
    Hibbert
    Thornton/Stuckey
    Lance


    our bench would be...


    Scola
    Cope
    Nick Young
    CJ


    We would have enough cash left over to possibly resign Pau to a vet deal, or we can go get another back up center. Bottom line is, a larger expiring as bait (Pau) to re-sign Lance. Plus trading Hill, Ian, and losing Butler and Sloan....means we stay far out of luxury tax territory. People are worried Danny's expiring might not be enough to re-sign Lance. I think Pau's would be.

  31. #73

    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The Simons went into the LT for a couple seasons, Herb Simon has never gone over on his own. I obviously don't know much about the inner workings and relationships, but what some people have said on this board it was Mel who was always more passionate about the Pacers, while Herb was always more business like with them. If true it could have easily been that the only reason the Pacers went into the LT was because of Mel.

    While under only Herb we have only heard that they will not go over the LT. Could just be words with little to no backing, we most likely will find out this summer. Until proven otherwise though, I am going to assume no LT.



    Herb MIGHT go over for the right player. A franchise changer like Eric Gordon, or Carmelo Anthony. But not for just anyone, and that's actually smart.

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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    No, Hill was brought in under Larry. He was extended under Donnie, but Larry traded Leonard for him.
    BillS

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    assuming PG gets back... Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Indiana Pacers Operating on 1-Year Championship Window?

    Going into the tax under the previous CBA, which is when we did it, was far less damaging than it is now. Used to be a dollar for dollar tax, much as you went over. Now it's 1.5 up to 5 mil over, 1.75 up to 10, 2.50 for up to 15, and on and on, it keeps increasing every 5 mil.

    That's not me endorsing a stated aversion to ever paying the tax, just the facts of the situation. Paying it in the past isn't near the same as paying it is now.

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