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Thread: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Leno loyalists are some hard-headed folks, they generally like Leno and no one else. Fairly close-minded. They like their set-in-stone, rather dry but predictable show, lol.

    Nope, I've always liked Letterman too. Also generally liked Conan on Late Night, but his Tonight Show just sucked big time.

    Us "Leno loyalists" have the two decade long consistent record of success on our side of the argument. The "Conan Loyalists" OTOH can't understand why the masses don't agree with them and therefore they try to come up with every possible excuse under the sun to cover up the fact that Conan failed to deliver a successful product in a business that is completely driven by ratings success.

  2. #77

    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I watch these shows for the guests if its someone I really like otherwise I rarely do but I would be more inclined to listen to Letterman if not for the Indiana references alone

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    I watch these shows for the guests if its someone I really like otherwise I rarely do but I would be more inclined to listen to Letterman if not for the Indiana references alone

    Yeah, I used to watch Letterman over Leno, and I will go back to watching Letterman now since I refuse to help validate NBC's decision to kick the top dog out the door for the second time. I've felt that the quality of Letterman's show has been going downhill in recent years though and that's why I've watched fare more of Leno lately.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Fallon's OK, he is talented, especially his musical bits and impressions (he's legitimately great there), but that dude owes a ton to his writing team. He's talented but not stand alone funny, for me anyway.

    Anyway, I'm just kinda bummed Letterman's still hanging around. He's approaching having a legacy of being a curmudgeony dickhead instead of being the guy that reinvented the entire genre of late night tv. I guess it's because CBS has no viable replacement, there's not a chance in hell Ferguson could carry a network 11:30 show and the ship's way out of port on John Stewart taking the gig. Colbert though, minus the Bill O'Reilly schtick that's been fading more and more, I'd give it a chance.

    OR, get serious and see if a guy like Bill Moyers wants to do an hour a night for a couple years. I'd really, really dig that.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah, I used to watch Letterman over Leno, and I will go back to watching Letterman now since I refuse to help validate NBC's decision to kick the top dog out the door for the second time. I've felt that the quality of Letterman's show has been going downhill in recent years though and that's why I've watched fare more of Leno lately.
    Go watch Kimmel. His show is funnier than Letterman's and you don't have to supply NBC with ratings.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Go watch Kimmel. His show is funnier than Letterman's and you don't have to supply NBC with ratings.
    Kimmel's show really started taking off once Bill Simmons left. I'M JUST SAYIN.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Leno loyalists are some hard-headed folks, they generally like Leno and no one else. Fairly close-minded. They like their set-in-stone, rather dry but predictable show, lol. Have this argument with my friends and family all the time, and it's always the same... they either like Leno and no one else... or they like everyone else and not Leno. My grandparents, for instance, love Leno, hate the new guys. All my younger peeps like Conan/Kimmel et all and don't really care for Leno. My grandparents also are brainwashed by Fox News 15 hours a day, and are very regimented in their thinking and logic, lol.... so there's definitely a large niche group out there of people like this. I'm a Republican and I still can't stand Fox News.... Anyway, I think Leno is part of that old guard that I just don't see much future in beyond Leno himself. I think that's why the execs are always tryin' to replace him. Letterman is somewhere in between.

    I actually think of all the late night guys, Kimmel is far and away the biggest surprise and possibly the most polished, able to carry on a great conversation and have great skits... he's been a real surprise. If you had asked me 15 years ago when he was on The Man Show that he'd develop into the host he is today, I'da said, "Nuh uh." But his show is really very good, he does a great job.

    Conan has a very unique deliver, he's a very intelligent, witty, funny man... some folks don't have that part of their brain developed (lol), and so they don't like him. My wife hates him, but she also has no sense of humor.

    Fallon often is the hardest for me to watch, I don't predict great things for him replacing Leno... sorta like Drew Carey replacing Bob Barker on the Price is Right, its just not the same. I sorta think Fallon is better suited in other roles, not exactly a host. I'm probably in the minority though. His convos can get awkward. He has some good skits, though.

    Ferguson is entertaining, if the show isn't the best produced. He's still a decent talker. He's suckin' hind tit, but I'd still watch him over Leno.

    Arsenio Hall just needs to stop.

    Kind of ironic that you're saying Leno viewers are "close minded" when you're writing off Leno viewers as falling under one or all of the falling categories:

    1) Close minded and unwilling to watch any other comic.

    2) Brainwashed

    3) Old, as if all of his viewers were born before the Titanic sank and are sitting in nursing homes waiting for their quickly impending death.

    Who is really being close minded here? It obviously drives you nuts that Leno always has been and always will be more popular than Conan. Instead of admitting that more people simply find him funnier, you blame it all on Leno viewers having some deep personality flaw, while the Conan viewers are the new young hip sophisticated class and are the only ones who have the smarts to appreciate good comedy.

    I'm 26, so I guess that makes me one of the few Leno viewers who isn't knocking on death's doorstep. I'm certainly not close minded. I've watched a lot of Letterman over the years, I liked Conan on Late Night, I liked Chappelle's show back in the day, I like Tosh.0 and The Soup, etc. I have a very wide ranging appreciation of different comics. I happen to like Leno and I don't view that as meaning that I have the soul of some 85 year old brainwashed goon. And I'm also looking at this through a business angle. The business angle of this has never been debatable. Leno has delivered the goods for NBC for a long time, while Conan's Tonight Show quickly turned viewers fleeing for something else because most people simply didn't view it as being as good as what it replaced.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Seriously though, you related to Leno Sollozzo?

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Leno loyalists are some hard-headed folks, they generally like Leno and no one else. Fairly close-minded.
    Exactly what I think about Conan fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Conan has a very unique delivery, he's a very intelligent, witty, funny man... some folks don't have that part of their brain developed (lol), and so they don't like him. My wife hates him, but she also has no sense of humor.
    Yep, exactly.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I don't DVR any of them anymore. Used to be a big Conan guy years ago, though. Leno was never anything special to me. Letterman has his moments, and I like his personality, but I rarely go out of my way to see his stuff, and his top 10 lists are mostly weak/lame IMO. But to me, it's not about rating their jokes, it's just, "Do I have a good time watching this person," and to varying degrees I still do with Conan, Letterman, Kimmel, and now I'd include Pete Holmes as well. But I don't watch any of their shows in traditional (live) or semi-traditional (dvr) ways. I just watch clips from Conan, Kimmel, Holmes, and sometimes Letterman on YouTube; I just pick and choose little pieces that catch my eye and leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I'll add too that debating which one is best by how popular they are is silly to me. They're a type of art, it's about personal enjoyment, not number of eyeballs. I'm speaking from the fan side of things, not the network business side of things, mind you.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    I watch these shows for the guests if its someone I really like otherwise I rarely do but I would be more inclined to listen to Letterman if not for the Indiana references alone
    And this is where Fallon is going to take a hit. Seems like a big mistake moving the show to New York. I have to believe part of Leno leading the pack was his access to many celebrities all the time.
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Kind of ironic that you're saying Leno viewers are "close minded" when you're writing off Leno viewers as falling under one or all of the falling categories:

    1) Close minded and unwilling to watch any other comic.

    2) Brainwashed

    3) Old, as if all of his viewers were born before the Titanic sank and are sitting in nursing homes waiting for their quickly impending death.

    Who is really being close minded here? It obviously drives you nuts that Leno always has been and always will be more popular than Conan. Instead of admitting that more people simply find him funnier, you blame it all on Leno viewers having some deep personality flaw, while the Conan viewers are the new young hip sophisticated class and are the only ones who have the smarts to appreciate good comedy.

    I'm 26, so I guess that makes me one of the few Leno viewers who isn't knocking on death's doorstep. I'm certainly not close minded. I've watched a lot of Letterman over the years, I liked Conan on Late Night, I liked Chappelle's show back in the day, I like Tosh.0 and The Soup, etc. I have a very wide ranging appreciation of different comics. I happen to like Leno and I don't view that as meaning that I have the soul of some 85 year old brainwashed goon. And I'm also looking at this through a business angle. The business angle of this has never been debatable. Leno has delivered the goods for NBC for a long time, while Conan's Tonight Show quickly turned viewers fleeing for something else because most people simply didn't view it as being as good as what it replaced.
    Me observing close-minded people doesn't by definition make me close-minded, lol... I watch more late night shows than you I'm guessing, so that would make me fairly open-minded.

    Most of the people I know who watch Leno ONLY watch Leno. It's my observation; it's not fact, and never said it was.
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  17. #89

    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I'll speak for the old people!

    I think Fallon is going to have the same ratings pattern that Conan did. Strong with the young demographic but a drop among the old people. His numbers will be significantly less than Leno's. But it's really the young demographic that NBC wants so the drop in overall ratings won't be a problem, just like it wasn't for Conan.

    And I agree that being in NYC is going to hurt Fallon with guests. Hollywood was always a big advantage for the Tonight Show over Letterman.

    But as long as NBC is patient and Leno isn't lurking in the shadows, Fallon should survive. But to me he doesn't really have the track record to be taking over the Tonight Show. He hasn't really earned it, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Fallon strikes me as having wider appeal than Conan, but he's no Leno in that department, either IMO. Then again, not having to deal with the 10:00 Jay Leno show will help him, too...

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I don't get the move to NYC either. Hollywood has treated the Tonight Show very well for many years. I get that a lot of stars have places in NYC and that there has been an increase in things filmed in NYC over the years, but still, it's no Hollywood.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    And this is where Fallon is going to take a hit. Seems like a big mistake moving the show to New York. I have to believe part of Leno leading the pack was his access to many celebrities all the time.
    I just saw an interview the other night and they were basically saying NY has regained its stature and Hollywood is dwindling. They were also saying that when the TS moved to "Beautiful Downtown Burbank" there were fears about leaving the bustling metropolis of NY. But Hollywood was on an upswing. So maybe the tables have turned again... I think the main argument was the cost of production in LA has grown too high.

    I think Letterman has gotten too political (or allowed his own personal political leanings to become too obvious). His most cutting barbs swing one way and many times aren't all that funny. Just mean spirited. And he goes out of his way to make those jokes/remarks. If there's a softball lobbed for him, take a swing... But don't go reaching and especially don't go reaching if you're not going to do that same type of thing for both sides of the aisle.

    I liked Conan's Late Night even though I found him awkward many times. I'm not sure what happened with his Tonight Show but I just found it lame the first few times I sampled it. It just didn't interest me. I thought it was almost unwatchable. And I'm no huge Leno fan so I gave Conan a chance. I can take Leno or leave him. I thought Letterman should've had the TS gig the first time around and all would've been right in the late night talk show realm. That all said, Conan's last shows, when the fit had hit the shan, I thought were some of his best. Whatever he had going then he needed to bottle.
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    I watched Letterman last night.........man, what happened to this guy? His monologue used to be pretty funny, but that was just terrible. Now I know why I watched far more of Leno in recent years.

    Bball, I think you're onto something about New York. Over the last 5-10 years, it really seems like New York has made major headway as far as film production is concerned. Agree about Conan's Tonight Show too. It was absolutely awful and failed for that reason and that reason alone. The viewers fled months before Leno's 10 PM show premiered in September. Leno can be blamed for not having a strong enough 10 PM show to save Conan, but he cannot be blamed for viewers leaving in the first place, which happened long before Leno came on with his new show. This key fact has been distorted many many times.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I watched Letterman last night.........man, what happened to this guy? His monologue used to be pretty funny, but that was just terrible. Now I know why I watched far more of Leno in recent years.
    .
    He has been mailing it in for years. I read those "War for Late Night" books a few years back and the impression I got was that Letterman is the smartest, funniest, and most naturally talented of the bunch (that was before the new guard of Kimmel, Fallon, etc. burst onto the scene) but he simply doesn't work hard on the show. Leno, on the other hand, busted his *** for his show and was almost manic in his preparation for shows.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    He's pretty campy, but does any one ever watch "The Graham Norton Show" on BBC? That show can be funny (once you get past the small monologue in the beginning). I really like the format (getting all the guest out at the same time).

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Fallon is better at skits than hosting.
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    He has been mailing it in for years. I read those "War for Late Night" books a few years back and the impression I got was that Letterman is the smartest, funniest, and most naturally talented of the bunch (that was before the new guard of Kimmel, Fallon, etc. burst onto the scene) but he simply doesn't work hard on the show. Leno, on the other hand, busted his *** for his show and was almost manic in his preparation for shows.
    Truth be known, I think Letterman was probably more hurt by not getting the Tonight Show than we'll ever know. He idolized Carson. He was Carson's pick to follow him and the heir apparent due to what NBC did to keep Letterman in the fold and to have him waiting in the wings. Then it all went wrong.

    I'm sure for a while the "I'll show them!" attitude prevailed to fuel his career and the Late Show at CBS, but now I think he's just settled in and accepted that his career doesn't and won't have the crowning jewel of the Tonight Show and while he might've damaged it a bit, overall the Tonight Show is still the prize amongst his peers and the up and comers in that group. The question of who will host the Late Show when Dave retires is either looked at as a consolation prize at best, or a show that won't even really exist when he retires.

    I don't think the true story of what was accomplished with the Late Show will ever be written until it's over and Dave rides off into the sunset. Maybe even after he's gone from this earth. There never really was a viable competitor to the Tonight Show's supremacy until Dave came along. Kimmel probably doesn't even exist on ABC without the Late Show being able to actually exist comfortably and show the Tonight Show doesn't just overwhelm and overshadow all of that type of entertainment any longer (which was conventional wisdom after failed attempt after failed attempt came along). Even the followup shows like Craig Ferguson, Conan, and Fallon exist mainly because of the success that Dave had with Late Night with David Letterman on NBC.

    I think it really is a shame he didn't end up at the Tonight Show. And I think he probably is just mailing it in these days because he's that good that he can, and because the passion just isn't there like it once was with career goals 1 and 2 no longer attainable. He's never going to host the Tonight Show, and his show, as successful as it is and historically, is never going to supplant the Tonight Show.
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Ya know, I've been watching Letterman since he first got Late Night, 31 years ago. Longer than some of you have been alive. For a long time I had never missed an episode (20 years?). At some point he stopped being must see tv for me.

    These days I watch John Stewart, the second half of Conan, the second half of Letterman, and then all of Craig Ferguson.

    Here's some trivia you may not know. On Carson's show he used to have occasional guest hosts. Letterman, Leno and Joan Rivers were in the rotation, among others. Then Letterman got Late Night. Soon after Joan Rivers was named the permanent guest host on The Tonight Show. She left as permanent guest host when she got her own late night talk show on Fox. They went back to rotating guest hosts until Leno was eventually named permanent guest host.

    So if Joan Rivers hadn't jumped to Fox, she may have been first in line to take over from Johnny. Her or Letterman.

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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Back in the day it was never thought the 'permanent guest host' would take over as host of the Tonight Show. Letterman had it sewn up was what the thought was in the industry. NBC signed Letterman to a contract to the network just to have him in the fold after several successful stints as a guest host on the Tonight Show. Then they tried to find vehicles for him while he was under contract waiting for the Tonight Show to open up. That's why there was such a shock and backlash when Leno was announced as the new host of the Tonight Show.

    So, I'd be curious to know if Joan jumped at the chance to host her own show because she thought there was zero percent chance she would ever be host of the Tonight Show (when the 'obvious' heir apparent was David Letterman)? The money they were offering, the chance to have her own show, and how long she assumed Johnny would continue could all be factors. But I have to wonder if she realized there was even a chance the next permanent host wasn't already decided if she ever would've jumped ship when she did. She was then effectively banned from Johnny's Tonight Show after that. And if I'm not mistaken, Leno continued the ban. Strangely enough, even with his loyalties to Johnny, Letterman has had Joan on his show.
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    Default Re: Why is NBC making the same mistake again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merz View Post
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    He's pretty campy, but does any one ever watch "The Graham Norton Show" on BBC? That show can be funny (once you get past the small monologue in the beginning). I really like the format (getting all the guest out at the same time).
    I catch it every so often depending on the guests. I like him but not enough to watch every week. I think a lot of what makes the show solid is that it's only weekly and they're able to get some pretty insane guest panels at times.

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