View Poll Results: Comfortable w Pacers offering Lance the following contract?

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  • 6-8 M

    8 5.97%
  • 8-10 M

    57 42.54%
  • 10-12 M

    50 37.31%
  • 12-14 M

    14 10.45%
  • 14+ M

    5 3.73%
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Thread: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

  1. #326
    Member TinManJoshua's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Min PPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG SPG>>
    31.2 15.4 .451 .277 .707 6.3 3.3 3.3 1.1>>
    35.6 14.2 .449 .344 .673 7.1 5.3 2.6 0.7

    Player 1 is Tracy McGrady his last year with the Raptors at the age of 21 before getting a mega deal with the Magic, Player 2 is Stephenson at 23.

    Not saying Stephenson is T-Mac, but a team can be rewarded for giving a megadeal based on potential.
    I mean, not to be that guy, but how did that deal work out for the Magic?

  2. #327
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Roy wasn't worth his contract when he signed it either.
    True, but you must admit..bigs ALWAYS get paid. They always have.

  3. #328
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    I haven't read the entire thread but would like to add my thoughts, briefly.

    I'd like to see Lance as our starting point beginning next season.

    Find a dead eye shooter to start at the 2.

    Use George Hill as a backup for both spots.

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  5. #329
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    I mean, not to be that guy, but how did that deal work out for the Magic?
    I'd say that deal worked out pretty well to be honest. He made two all NBA first teams, 4 all-star games, and two All-NBA second teams during his four year tenure there. You can say the team didn't do that well, but was it his fault that the team paid a max contract to Grant Hill, who never played? His second best player was a young Mike Miller. For a team that always gets clowned for letting Shaq go, he gave them another superstar and made them relevant.

    http://grantland.com/features/the-un...te-tale-t-mac/
    Last edited by PR07; 01-30-2014 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #330
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    T-mac's contract was 6yr 67.5 mil. Still not 12 mil per lol
    Were NBA revenues at an all-time high?

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    T-mac's contract was 6yr 67.5 mil. Still not 12 mil per lol
    The salary cap when McGrady signed that deal was $35,500,000.

    The salary cap this year is $58,679,000.

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  9. #332
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Look what letting Harden walk did to crush OKC's hopes of ever contending again.
    First of all, they didn't let him walk. They traded him. Granted it was not a ton of value, but they did still get back some relatively high draft picks that are currently helping their team. Second, they have Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. If we had those 3 guys under contract I doubt many would be so concerned about the status of Lance. Even WITH Lance, OKC's big 3 is better than ours. Good news is our next 2 starters are better than their next 2, but unfortunately with the way max contracts work, it leaves them in a better financial position than the Pacers.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    OKC essentially had to choose between Harden and Ibaka if they wanted to stay under the luxury tax. They already had 2 of the 5 best players in the league playing the same role as Harden. Ibaka became an easy choice.

    We are choosing between Lance and... Hill, Scola, Granger, Copeland? Some combination of that. Seems like choosing Lance becomes an easy choice when compared to the alternative.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    True, but you must admit..bigs ALWAYS get paid. They always have.
    True, but players with potential in general always get paid. Lance might not be worth 12M right now, but in 3 years?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    True, but players with potential in general always get paid. Lance might not be worth 12M right now, but in 3 years?

    That's the thing. I think that too many people are analyzing this through the prism of whether or not the Pacers could survive without this 2013-14 Lance, as if he close to reaching his peak. Just look at how drastically Lance improved from last year to this year. He's a completely different player. And you have to keep in mind that this is still just his second season of playing big minutes. A mere two years ago, he was just a bottom of the rotation player who didn't get a lot of clock. He is just 23 and is at the point where the historical evidence shows that he should still make a couple more significant leaps as long as he stays healthy. Given his intense work ethic and the quality of the Pacers' coaching staff, I'll gladly role the dice on this kid continuing to kid better over the next several years. How many good players who stay relatively healthy throughout their career hit their peak at age 23? Very very very few.

    It could get to a point in a couple of years where we look at Lance's new contract as a bargain.....

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  17. #336
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    So basically you are justifying paying PG, Roy, and Lance the same total amount that OKC pays Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka, which for them is OK because they have two of the best 5 players in the NBA.

    Assume this is true.

    Unless PG, Roy, or Lance make up 2 or 3 of the other best players in the NBA, we'd better have other weapons besides that big 3 in order to take them on. That means our need for salary is a bit different because we have to have higher level role players than OKC needs to have.

    Bottom line is that I expect Lance will get paid. Much as I'd like Herb to go into the LT, he probably won't (getting a chance to make up your previous losses and being told you need to knuckle down and lose more money seems a contradiction to me). Therefore, we have to continue to look at ways to build a third option from the roleplayers surrounding Roy and PG rather than depending on having a big 3 with rookie contract or vet minimum surrounding players.
    BillS

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  19. #337
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Does anyone think that finding the complimentary pieces necessary to compete would be easier with just Paul and Roy, than it would be with Paul, Roy, and Lance?

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  21. #338
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So basically you are justifying paying PG, Roy, and Lance the same total amount that OKC pays Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka, which for them is OK because they have two of the best 5 players in the NBA.

    Assume this is true.

    Unless PG, Roy, or Lance make up 2 or 3 of the other best players in the NBA, we'd better have other weapons besides that big 3 in order to take them on. That means our need for salary is a bit different because we have to have higher level role players than OKC needs to have.

    Bottom line is that I expect Lance will get paid. Much as I'd like Herb to go into the LT, he probably won't (getting a chance to make up your previous losses and being told you need to knuckle down and lose more money seems a contradiction to me). Therefore, we have to continue to look at ways to build a third option from the roleplayers surrounding Roy and PG rather than depending on having a big 3 with rookie contract or vet minimum surrounding players.
    Durant/Westbrook are being underpaid compared to their real value. And besides, most aren't saying Lance should be paid at Westbrooks level, as he's making 14.6M this year and will be making 17.8M by the last year of his contract.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    BillS argument applies to PG just as much as it does Lance. PG isn't on Durant's level, yet he's getting a similiar contract. Does PG deserve his contract?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  24. #340
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    I don't think anyone here wants to see the Pacers pay $12M annually, but if push comes to shove, and the risk is letting him leave for nothing. I'm ponying up the extra $3 million per year. Yes, that may cost you a Chris Copeland type player, but I'd run that risk than to let a dynamic young guard leave who may just be coming into his own.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    BillS argument applies to PG just as much as it does Lance. PG isn't on Durant's level, yet he's getting a similiar contract. Does PG deserve his contract?
    PG is a lot closer to KD than Lance is to Westbrook.

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  27. #342
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    BillS argument applies to PG just as much as it does Lance. PG isn't on Durant's level, yet he's getting a similiar contract. Does PG deserve his contract?
    Yeah but I think he is operating under the assumption that PG falls into the "one of the top five players in the NBA" category.

  28. #343
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Durant/Westbrook are being underpaid compared to their real value. And besides, most aren't saying Lance should be paid at Westbrooks level, as he's making 14.6M this year and will be making 17.8M by the last year of his contract.
    I was thinking of Lance being the equivalent of Ibaka's contract. That's CONTRACT, not PLAY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    BillS argument applies to PG just as much as it does Lance. PG isn't on Durant's level, yet he's getting a similiar contract. Does PG deserve his contract?
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never hinted, insinuated, winked at, or pointed to as it went flying by the idea that PG is not worth his contract.

    My point is we are paying max salaries, at least 2 when Roy gets his next contract. Our two guys currently on (or expected to be on) those salaries are not going to carry a team with a third perennial All-Star and no other high-level role-players. That's just the way it is, and no more than 2 teams can have 2 of the top 5 players, so saying we're paying max for guys "only" in the top 10 isn't some kind of slam - it's just what the top-10 is worth.

    With Durant/Westbrook, the point was made that one other high-flyer is sufficient to be one of the best 4 teams in the NBA. I think we've seen that, while at the very highest levels of the NBA, Roy and PG aren't that good (and don't fit together as well, which may be more important). That means we need to spread our money around more upper-level role-players, not spend it all on one single guy.

    It's an opinion, but it isn't somehow a ridiculous one.
    BillS

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  30. #344
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    With Durant/Westbrook, the point was made that one other high-flyer is sufficient to be one of the best 4 teams in the NBA. I think we've seen that, while at the very highest levels of the NBA, Roy and PG aren't that good (and don't fit together as well, which may be more important). That means we need to spread our money around more upper-level role-players, not spend it all on one single guy.

    It's an opinion, but it isn't somehow a ridiculous one.
    We already have a good role player starting point guard who is under contract through 2017. We have David West under contract through 2016. For the next couple of seasons, we don't have to worry about what we are surrounding Hibbert/PG/Lance with if we are willing to pay for it . We know for a fact that this starting lineup can push the Heat to 7 games, and that was when PG and Lance aren't near as good as they are now. I love having a good bench, but a guy like Scola is in the twilight of his career. Same with DG.

    It just comes down to how much the billionaire owner is willing to reach into his pockets.

  31. #345
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I was thinking of Lance being the equivalent of Ibaka's contract. That's CONTRACT, not PLAY.



    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never hinted, insinuated, winked at, or pointed to as it went flying by the idea that PG is not worth his contract.

    My point is we are paying max salaries, at least 2 when Roy gets his next contract. Our two guys currently on (or expected to be on) those salaries are not going to carry a team with a third perennial All-Star and no other high-level role-players. That's just the way it is, and no more than 2 teams can have 2 of the top 5 players, so saying we're paying max for guys "only" in the top 10 isn't some kind of slam - it's just what the top-10 is worth.

    With Durant/Westbrook, the point was made that one other high-flyer is sufficient to be one of the best 4 teams in the NBA. I think we've seen that, while at the very highest levels of the NBA, Roy and PG aren't that good (and don't fit together as well, which may be more important). That means we need to spread our money around more upper-level role-players, not spend it all on one single guy.

    It's an opinion, but it isn't somehow a ridiculous one.
    Ibaka got $49 million over 4 years. That's probably fairly close to what it will take to keep Lance around. The Pacers can find a way to make that $12+ per year work. If they don't do that, and let Lance go, they don't have anything even close to $12 million to spread around. That alternative doesn't exist.

    By letting Lance go, we basically have to resort to trying to find those upper-level role-players with guys on rookie contracts. That's going to be tough when our first draft pick is somewhere in the late 50's next year. Unless you just really believe in Solomon Hill.

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  33. #346
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never hinted, insinuated, winked at, or pointed to as it went flying by the idea that PG is not worth his contract.
    I didn't, I asked you a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It's an opinion, but it isn't somehow a ridiculous one.
    I also didn't call it ridiculous.

    But I think if we're going to stay within the complete lines of each others arguments, that the fact that 85% of people on this board think paying Lance more than 12M is too much is important. Westbrook is making nearly 15M and will get up to nearly 18M. So no one is saying Lance should be paid like him.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-30-2014 at 12:33 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  34. #347

    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I was thinking of Lance being the equivalent of Ibaka's contract. That's CONTRACT, not PLAY.



    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never hinted, insinuated, winked at, or pointed to as it went flying by the idea that PG is not worth his contract.

    My point is we are paying max salaries, at least 2 when Roy gets his next contract. Our two guys currently on (or expected to be on) those salaries are not going to carry a team with a third perennial All-Star and no other high-level role-players. That's just the way it is, and no more than 2 teams can have 2 of the top 5 players, so saying we're paying max for guys "only" in the top 10 isn't some kind of slam - it's just what the top-10 is worth.

    With Durant/Westbrook, the point was made that one other high-flyer is sufficient to be one of the best 4 teams in the NBA. I think we've seen that, while at the very highest levels of the NBA, Roy and PG aren't that good (and don't fit together as well, which may be more important). That means we need to spread our money around more upper-level role-players, not spend it all on one single guy.

    It's an opinion, but it isn't somehow a ridiculous one.
    The other difference between the Thunder and the Pacers is that the Thunder have a bad contract (Perkins at around 9 million per year). The Pacers don't have that. So they'll have one more high quality role player to surround the top 3 than the Thunder have. And the Thunder still have room this year to either resign Thabo or get another player for most of the mid level.

    The Pacers would be able to surround a Hibbert/George/Lance core with at least two high quality role players. One of those might have to be a mid level player, but they won't be close to out of money for talent after paying the first three.

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  36. #348

    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Well OKC didn't let Harden walk. They got Jeremy Lamb, Steven Adams, and Dallas's draft pick one of these upcoming years. Lamb has been a solid 6th man, Adams has shown a lot of potential, and the Dallas pick could end up being pretty good potentially in the future. They built their bench through the Harden trade. Letting Lance walk gets us nothing.

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  38. #349
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    The big disagreement seems to be over just how good Lance is. Some of us, me included, view him as no lower than our third most important player (I believe he's been our best player at times). Others seem to think he's a dime-a-dozen role player benefiting from our team system, and that he could be easily replaced with MLE money.


    Lance's Rankings Amongst SG

    • 16th in scoring
    • 1st in rebounding (by a huge margin)
    • 3rd in assists (behind Goran Dragic and Monta Ellis, both of whom are arguably point guards)
    • 4th in FG% (two-hundredths of a percentage behind #3 Dragic)
    • First in double-doubles (by a huge margin)
    • First in triple-doubles (as many as every other SG in the league, combined)

    ...all at the age of 23, and in his first season being used in a significant role.

    I think we're looking at a guy who not only is a star in the making, but has the skill level, passion, and charisma to be a bona fide superstar. He is as good this year as Paul George was last year, and I fully expect him to take another step forward next season.

    To lose that type of talent for nothing, and to watch the team almost certainly regress significantly, over a matter of NBA pocket change ($2-3M), is just silly. Lance should take priority over anyone on this team not named Paul George or Roy Hibbert.

  39. #350
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    The big disagreement seems to be over just how good Lance is. Some of us, me included, view him as no lower than our third most important player (I believe he's been our best player at times). Others seem to think he's a dime-a-dozen role player benefiting from our team system, and that he could be easily replaced with MLE money.
    Actually, I don't think there's much argument over how good Lance is. The argument seems to be over whether we can keep 2 max players plus one near-max player without having to dump quality at the fourth best player position in order to dump salary.

    One extreme is that it is impossible to do so and stay under the LT, so absolutely not.

    The other extreme is that Herb Simon owes it to the city to go as far over the LT threshold as needed, so absolutely yes.

    The answer is somewhere in between, but I think no one is saying that Lance wouldn't deserve a fairly hefty paycheck. We're talking ranges waaay over the MLE for most everyone in the argument.
    BillS

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