View Poll Results: Comfortable w Pacers offering Lance the following contract?

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  • 6-8 M

    8 5.97%
  • 8-10 M

    57 42.54%
  • 10-12 M

    50 37.31%
  • 12-14 M

    14 10.45%
  • 14+ M

    5 3.73%
  • Do not re sign and look elsewhere

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Thread: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

  1. #226
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    same as george hill....no more...
    Then George Hill better start playing a lot better.

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  3. #227
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    based upon relatively simple calculations of added cost to going over the LT and the amount of going over the LT and the missed incoe from going over the LT totalling 40 million, it would mean that you need an additionalt income of about 600K per homegame assuming you would make the other 40% back in added sales on merchandise and increased income share from away games. (a tall order)
    19k seats dividing 600K income remains close to $ 30 per seat, which in general averages means a 75% increase on tickets.
    I have no idea how you calculated this.....but I am impressed by how you figured this out.
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I have a question about how a "Sign and Trade" of Lance would work for a Team that is over the Salary Cap at $68 mil.

    NOTE - PLEASE READ BEFORE you jump off the deep end and declare from the highest mountain that you'd rather dump the entire Team before doing what I am asking below. I know what the opinion is of the forum of what the Pacers should and should not do regarding Lance....I am PURELY asking the questions below and exploring this option as "WORST CASE scenario - Option C" if we end up losing Lance.

    The Pacers have about $7.7 mil to spend before hitting the $75.7 mil LT ceiling. The Full MLE is around $5.38 mil. That would leave about $2.32 mil left over before going over the LT ceiling.

    Since we are over the Salary Cap...we can only AT MOST...sign a Free Agent ( not named Danny Granger ) to the Full MLE and either sign Granger to a contract that starts at $2.32 mil ( unlikely ) or one ( or both ) of the 2014-2015 2nd round draft picks that the Pacers have.

    Can the Pacers sign a Free Agent AT the FULL MLE ( thus pushing the Pacers to $73.38 mil in Owed Salary ) AND THEN execute a Sign & Trade for Lance while getting back a Player or Players that only had no more than $2.32 mil ( most likely a rookie Prospect along with Picks )?

    What I have come to consider is the option that the Pacers do a S&T of Lance ( IF Pacers/Simon/Bird decide that re-signing Lance is not an option cuz he's being priced beyond the Pacers reach ) and getting back SOME assets in a S&T scenario. The way that I look at it is that Lance Trade Value is AT WORST worth a Trade Exception + Rookie Prospect ( or a Draft Pick ) or AT MOST worth a Trade Exception + Rookie Prospect + Draft pick.

    What I don't know is what the Pacers can do in a S&T scenario AFTER signing a Free Agent ( not named Lance or Granger ) to the full MLE. Keep in mind...the Pacers are already OVER the Salary Cap. So I am not sure how being over the Salary cap can affect taking back Players in a S&T.

    The reason I bring this up is that I just realized that the Pacers are in a similar scenario as the Thunder are when it came time to pay Harden. The Thunder decided to get something back in return for their Star Player instead of losing him for nothing in Free Agency. I look at the possibility of losing Lance in the same light....if "push comes to shove" and the Simons/Pacers/Bird decide that they cannot afford to keep Lance cuz the Free Agent Market is making him too costly....I can see them trying to get something in return for losing an asset like Lance ( again, PLEASE just look at this as "Option C" ).

    NOTE - To be clear...I know that Harden being traded to the Thunder wasn't a S&T scenario ( like what I am suggesting above ) nor that it is the SAME EXACT scenario...I'm just saying that I am approaching this from the scenario where both Teams didn't want to lose their Star Player nothing is similar and therefore made moves to ensure that they get something back in return for trading him to another Team.

    Thank you in advance for your response...but please try to keep your response to this particular topic at hand. I don't want this to tangent into another "We should do whatever we can to keep Lance" discussion. I am trying to understand what ALL of our Offseason options are ( like it or not...a S&T scenario is one of our Options )...especially when it comes to ( what I think ) is a very strong possibility that the Pacers can lose Lance to Free Agency.


    Can the Pacers sign a Free Agent AT the FULL MLE ( thus pushing the Pacers to $73.38 mil in Owed Salary ) AND THEN execute a Sign & Trade for Lance while getting back a Player or Players that only had no more than $2.32 mil ( most likely a rookie Prospect along with Picks )?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  6. #229
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I have no idea how you calculated this.....but I am impressed by how you figured this out.
    it is actually closer to 95% as the avg ticket price is $ 31.62 for this season apparently, i was using old data (2008) that said $ 41 dollar

    19k seats x 31.62 = not enough

    by comparison the knicks avg = $129
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I think the idea is that it wouldn't take a player making 12 mil (or anything really close) to replace (most) of what Lance brings to the team. Actually, that's totally the idea.
    That may have been "totally the idea" of other posts in this thread, but that wasn't "totally the idea" of the post I was responding to.

    If you think we can find a player with Lance's overall game for anywhere near the money we'll have available, then I wish you good luck, because you're going to need it. Lance is probably one of the three or so most complete shooting guards in the league, and he has the makings of a superb scorer, too, as he's shown lately, all at the ripe old age of 23.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It's not the aging PF on the bench we are worried about losing, it's the eventual loss (and downgrade) of our starting PG, PF...the backup PF is 3'rd or 4th on the worry list.
    Again, the post I was responding to clearly made it a keeping Lance vs. keeping Scola dilemma.

    As for your points, you're exaggerating. Keeping Lance isn't going to cost us two starters and a quality bench. It may cost us one of the three, I'll grant you that, but I'd easily choose Lance over any of the other three. I'd take the young SG on the brink of greatness over the aging, declining PF, the dime-a-dozen combo-guard, or a good bench.

    If sacrifices must be made, I don't think Lance should be one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I believe the fact that the owner has said numerous times that he will not go into the luxury tax for any reason, is why individuals are so adamant about not overpaying.
    Only time will tell if that's true, but, as I just said, if sacrifices must be made, I don't think Lance should be one of them.


    For those curious, here's Lance's current production vs. Paul George's production last year, his breakout season:



    Similar across the board, with Paul being more of a scorer and Lance being more of a passer. Paul walked away with MIP, and Lance is one of the frontrunners this season.

    My hunch is, Pacers management realize they've found yet another player on the brink of being special, and will make sure he's locked up long-term this offseason.
    Last edited by Lance George; 01-27-2014 at 09:55 PM.

  8. #231
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    ^ Good stats, and 2013 PG was only more of a scorer than 2014 Lance because he took 3 and a half more shots a game.

  9. #232
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    The difference in our opinion lies in the fact that you believe that Lance is on the brink of greatness (your words) and i think he's a good player who's on a team where his talents are maximized, weaknesses are minimized, and he's playing great during the first half of his contract year.

    As far as replacing his all around game, yes that would be difficult since Lance is a jack of all trades player. But it's not as if he doesn't have weaknesses, and it's not as if he's great at any one thing (with the exception of rebounding in which he is other world for a guard) so while replacing his exact strengths would be hard, replacing him with a similarly talented/productive player isn't out of the question.

    Players that I believe to be of equal production/talent that make less than $12mi, a yr?

    Wes Matthews- 5yr/$34 mil
    Aaron Afflalo- 5yr/$43 mil
    Demar Derozan- 4yr/$40 mil
    Monta Ellis- 3yr/$30 mil
    Tyreke Evans - 4yr/$44 mil

    Vet players that are just a shade below Lance's talent level but still produce
    Jamal Crawford- 4yr/$25 mil
    Rodney Stuckey- 3yr/$25 mil
    OJ Mayo (having a rough yr this yr on a terribly coached MIL team) 3yr/$24 mil.

    Obviously NONE of these guys are FA's, but their contracts should set the bar for Lance. He hasn't done anything to demonstrate that he deserves to be paid so much more than any of these guys.

    Edit: there are currently only six 2guards that make $12mil a yr or more. one of them is Ben Gordon, so really there are only 5. Joe Johnson and Eric Gordon are obviously extremely overpaid, so there are three shooting guards right now that make $12mil or more and aren't considered to be overpaid: Kobe, Harden, and Wade. So you're willing to give him the 5th highest contract (with 2 of those contracts being grossly overpaid) at his position in the entire league?

    There are other 2guards in this league who produce just as much as Lance, just in a different way. With the rest of our team being so balanced, you could plug any of these guys into our lineup in place of Lance and we are still an elite team.

    As far as me exaggerating what we would lose, you must not have seen what we have on the books in the next few seasons, PG is going to be paid, Roy is going to be paid (esp when he opts out) if you think we can pay Lance $12 mil AND be able to keep talented players like GH and D.West within our starting lineup, I'd like to hear how you'd plan to do so while having enough money to fill out the rest of the roster with anything more than minimum salaried players.

    The Heat can do this because they have the best player in the world, a very consistent Chris Bosh and another hall of fame talent (when healthy) in D.Wade. If We have a 3man core of Lance, Roy, and Paul we would need at least a 4th starter who's very good (and we'd honestly need an at least more than adequate 5th starter as well) if we wanted to truly continue to contend.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 01-27-2014 at 11:46 PM.

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  11. #233
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    What am I comfortable with? Not my $$ so I would pick 14+.

    In all seriousness if we lost him it would make the team a lot less fun to watch. He also helps us our difference maker in being the best team (or in the conversation) and just a contender who competes for the east. So I hope a miracle happens and we can keep him.
    Last edited by pacer4ever; 01-27-2014 at 11:43 PM.

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  13. #234
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    I think if Lance is allowed to Bolt in FA then it will send a ripple throughout the Locker room that the organization is not committed to winning the title, and then we probably lose Hibbert anyway. Pacers have to show they are willing to flirt with the LT even if its for one year if they want to show the current group of players that the team is 100% committed to the winning.

    BUt then again I think the choice will be very easy for Bird this off season. If the Pacer win the Championship then Simon will give Bird the green light to do whatever is needed to get another one. If the Pacers some how fail miserably, and the Heat smash them in the ECF then you'll a major restructuring on draft night.

    Also I'm not sold on the idea that Hibbert will get 18 million. He does not average enough points or rebounds to justify that kind of contract. You gotta be a double double type big man to get that kind of contract.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 01-27-2014 at 11:41 PM.
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  15. #235
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    essentially it sounds as if Lance is gone after this season no matter what. I don't see us going into LT territory and if we do as others have stated it will not be for Lance *unfortunately.* If Lance was a more consistent shooter he would be worth 12 M but his jumper is not there yet. Kid has talent no one on here will deny that.


    Bird knows whats up and he will do what is best for the Franchise. He has given us the core we just cannot afford it as a small market in the nba. At what point will Paul George become unreasonable to sign? Not fully aware of how the contracts escalate but if PG gets into the 20+ range seems impossible to field a competitive roster.


    Like others have suggested, this is a special season so lets enjoy the ride while it lasts.


    Go Pacers

  16. #236
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    essentially it sounds as if Lance is gone after this season no matter what. I don't see us going into LT territory and if we do as others have stated it will not be for Lance *unfortunately.* If Lance was a more consistent shooter he would be worth 12 M but his jumper is not there yet. Kid has talent no one on here will deny that.


    Bird knows whats up and he will do what is best for the Franchise. He has given us the core we just cannot afford it as a small market in the nba. At what point will Paul George become unreasonable to sign? Not fully aware of how the contracts escalate but if PG gets into the 20+ range seems impossible to field a competitive roster.


    Like others have suggested, this is a special season so lets enjoy the ride while it lasts.


    Go Pacers
    i suppose u can wish. But Bird will resign Lance. Book it.
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  18. #237
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    The difference in our opinion lies in the fact that you believe that Lance is on the brink of greatness (your words) and i think he's a good player who's on a team where his talents are maximized, weaknesses are minimized....
    I could say the same about Hibbert. Roy would be good along a LaMarcus in Portland, or Duncan, or Dirk...but put him in Orlando, Philly, or even Denver and I guarantee he gets exposed. Maybe even to the point that many fans would call him a bust.

    As far as replacing his all around game, yes that would be difficult since Lance is a jack of all trades player. But it's not as if he doesn't have weaknesses, and it's not as if he's great at any one thing (with the exception if rebounding in which he is other world for a guard) so while replacing his exact strengths would be hard, replacing him with a similarly talented/productive player isn't out of the question.

    Players that I believe to be of equal production/talent that make less than $12mi, a yr?

    Wes Matthews- 5yr/$34 mil
    Aaron Afflalo- 5yr/$43 mil
    Demar Derozan- 4yr/$40 mil
    Monta Ellis- 3yr/$30 mil
    Tyreke Evans - 4yr/$44 mil

    Vet players that are just a shade below Lance's talent level but still produce
    Jamal Crawford- 4yr/$25 mil
    Rodney Stuckey- 3yr/$25 mil
    OJ Mayo (having a rough yr this yr on a terribly coached MIL team) 3yr/$24 mil.
    You (and maybe many others) may disagree with me here, but I feel that Lance, overall, is better than these guys. For example: Matthews, Afflalo, Ellis, and Crawford may score more, but Lance has more rebounds, assists, and plays better defense than these guys. Derozan can be inconsistent for being a #1 or #2 option, and I think he's just better than Evans, Stuckey, or Mayo.

    There are other 2guards in this league who produce just as much as Lance, just in a different way. With the rest of our team being so balanced, you could plug any of these guys into our lineup in place of Lance and we are still an elite team.
    I disagree. If that was the case, guys like Green, Augustine, and Barbosa wouldn't look so horrible when they were here. I'm not sure exactly why, and why they are doing ok with their current teams, but I don't think you can just plug ANY player in this spot and not expect a dropoff.

    As far as me exaggerating what we would lose, you must not have seen what we have on the books in the next few seasons, PG is going to be paid, Roy is going to be paid (esp when he opts out) if you think we can pay Lance $12 mil AND be able to keep talented players like GH and D.West within our starting lineup, I'd like to hear how you'd plan to do so while having enough money to fill out the rest of the roster with anything more than minimum salaried players.
    I completely understand. I'm all for trying to keep Lance, even if it's for a lot of money. Now if someone offers something crazy like 13k or 14k a year...I'll be first to say bye-bye Lance. But as I posted prior to this thread or another (I can't remember and I'm too lazy to check), I'm willing to sacrifice the bench or his kind of talent.

    I remember the Pacer squad through the 90's and early 00's had a deep bench, but we ended up only going to the finals once. So just having a deep bench is somewhat overrated. I mean you need a bench, but you need players that compliment each other, and Lance does that here.

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  20. #238
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    i suppose u can wish. But Bird will resign Lance. Book it.
    Bird has made it clear we will not go into the LT. with approximately 7.7 I don't see how its possible. Especially once this team goes to the NBA Finals.


    This poll has proved at least one fact so far, no one wants to see Lance leave the BnG.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I think if Lance is allowed to Bolt in FA then it will send a ripple throughout the Locker room that the organization is not committed to winning the title, and then we probably lose Hibbert anyway. Pacers have to show they are willing to flirt with the LT even if its for one year if they want to show the current group of players that the team is 100% committed to the winning.

    BUt then again I think the choice will be very easy for Bird this off season. If the Pacer win the Championship then Simon will give Bird the green light to do whatever is needed to get another one. If the Pacers some how fail miserably, and the Heat smash them in the ECF then you'll a major restructuring on draft night.

    Also I'm not sold on the idea that Hibbert will get 18 million. He does not average enough points or rebounds to justify that kind of contract. You gotta be a double double type big man to get that kind of contract.
    Roy could score less then he is now and he'd still have multiple teams ready to hand him a max contract starting at around 18 mil. Roy is a franchise player because of his elite defense not just because of his stats but because he alone changes everything the opposing team does on offense. Lance will never have that kind of impact, he's a good jack of all trades but he doesn't do anything on that elite level. Teams are already planning on targeting Roy when he becomes a free agent in 2015, we can't even afford to toy with low balling him.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Bird has made it clear we will not go into the LT. with approximately 7.7 I don't see how its possible. Especially once this team goes to the NBA Finals.


    This poll has proved at least one fact so far, no one wants to see Lance leave the BnG.
    I don't want to see him leave but I agree with you that I think the odds are against us now. If he makes the all star team I think it almost becomes a given that we lose him unless Lance gave us a discount that would be unprecedented for a young player in his position.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Can the Pacers sign a Free Agent AT the FULL MLE ( thus pushing the Pacers to $73.38 mil in Owed Salary ) AND THEN execute a Sign & Trade for Lance while getting back a Player or Players that only had no more than $2.32 mil ( most likely a rookie Prospect along with Picks )?
    Technically I think this is possible, but executing a S&T for Lance while getting back only $2.32m seems unlikely. The other team would have to be under the cap (in which case they can sign Lance outright) or else have mostly unguaranteed salary filler.

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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Players that I believe to be of equal production/talent that make less than $12mi, a yr?

    Wes Matthews- 5yr/$34 mil
    Aaron Afflalo- 5yr/$43 mil
    Demar Derozan- 4yr/$40 mil
    Monta Ellis- 3yr/$30 mil
    Tyreke Evans - 4yr/$44 mil

    Vet players that are just a shade below Lance's talent level but still produce
    Jamal Crawford- 4yr/$25 mil
    Rodney Stuckey- 3yr/$25 mil
    OJ Mayo (having a rough yr this yr on a terribly coached MIL team) 3yr/$24 mil.
    If you go on a neutral forum, I think most people will pick Lance over these guys (with the exception of maybe Afflalo) by a landslide. Note too that Lance is the youngest with only DD and Tyreke being close in age. Potential factors in to the high valuation of Lance, whether you think it's warranted or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    As far as me exaggerating what we would lose, you must not have seen what we have on the books in the next few seasons, PG is going to be paid, Roy is going to be paid (esp when he opts out) if you think we can pay Lance $12 mil AND be able to keep talented players like GH and D.West within our starting lineup, I'd like to hear how you'd plan to do so while having enough money to fill out the rest of the roster with anything more than minimum salaried players.
    Oh I agree that we'll be in tough financial spot. Assuming PG and RH are the 2 guys we want to keep at all costs, the next question is who is most expendable among West, Hill, and Lance. In an ideal world, we get to keep all 3, but if you have to sacrifice one, who would it be? In your case I'm pretty sure it's Lance, but other people have different opinions.

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  27. #243
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Also I'm not sold on the idea that Hibbert will get 18 million. He does not average enough points or rebounds to justify that kind of contract. You gotta be a double double type big man to get that kind of contract.
    Um Ben Wallace? You definitely can get a big money contract when you're DPOY and widely regarded as the best defensive big man in the game. Exhibit B: old and injury prone Tyson Chandler is making $14m this year and $15m next. Tell me some team wouldn't pay Hibbert in his prime more money than that.

    In a way, we've been a victim of our drafting success. Our players are really good - and the high price tag kind of goes with it.

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  29. #244
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    In a way, we've been a victim of our drafting success. Our players are really good - and the high price tag kind of goes with it.
    We also have a tendency to overvalue our own, no worries, every fan does for every team, but on this site it is funny how "camps" have grown and reason has left the ballpark ages ago, not sure i like it.

    Lance does a lot of good things, but he's not the next best thing since sliced bread. He's a 4 year vet, not some rookie, depite his age, he has 4 years under his belt, those 4 years have been very hard work for this franchise and in the system we have he fits reasonably well.
    Lately (since he has more "freedom") I see a lot of things I just don't like, me-ball being one of them and yes he has a high assist number but let's face also the fact that those are often hand offs to big men in the paint, plays that more players can make, not only Lance, yes he can go coast to coast and/or drive to the basket like a steamtrain, but his "celebreations" are enough to upset someone badly some day and if there's one thing i learned in life; there's alwasy someone out there that's bigger and stronger.
    His "throw the ball it the 18th row" passes are simply irritating, in the last couple of games we all have seen some plays that potetially lost us the game, or at least momentum, we fail to acknowledge that in many cases because he had some eyewidening pass or layup, but there are days the circus shots wont fall, the dribbling will be punished and the drives are hard to come by.
    Dribbling with the ball for ages may be part of "where he comes from" but it is not part of winning basketball, defence is and how many times do we see him take time off on defense? to much.
    Yes he can defend, but that doesn't mean he does it or does it proper and continuous (unlike PG) no one would ask Lance to defend Griffin.
    Often he sags of his man and they guy he is supposed to defend goes off, we counter by putting PG on him, and switch with Lance, why ?

    all in all I rate him less then some of you and way less then another number here, that consider him the next coming, so that is my opinion, not worth less than yours, i have given you arguments of why he wont get more then at the very most 8 million (and i'd be surprised if we even offered that much) since we have a fsically responsible front office.
    I would not be amazed that we never going to make Lance an offer, since someone will jump on the bandwagon the moment FA starts and LB canonnly shrug and say go Lance, go get that bag of money, and come back when you want to win again.
    Lance can not carry a team, he is no PG no Kobe, no RH no DW, he is Lance, a shooting guard that has (so far) 3 triple doubles this season courtesy of his teammates, and who can be found in highlight reels for the same reason, but he is also a regular in the blooper reels.
    What if there is NO RH or DW to bail him out, no PG to cover his behind? do you still think he's all that some say? I don't that is obvious.
    Would i like to see him go? If we see a lot more me-ball than i couldn't care less, if he stays within the system and helps us win, i will be sad, but I also realise that with PG and RH and the eyes on talent our FO has, we will be in contending territory for a while and players of high calibre will want to join our organisation.
    In short Lance is replacable for less and PG and RH are not, which is exactly what PB said, if his value goes to hig, we get someone else, simple as that.
    You all idolize LB and yet if he says something you choicefully ignore it, to me he is still a green man, but I appreciate what he has done so far and hope he does more good, but I choose to listen to what he says and assume he means it.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  31. #245

    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Um Ben Wallace? You definitely can get a big money contract when you're DPOY and widely regarded as the best defensive big man in the game. Exhibit B: old and injury prone Tyson Chandler is making $14m this year and $15m next. Tell me some team wouldn't pay Hibbert in his prime more money than that.

    In a way, we've been a victim of our drafting success. Our players are really good - and the high price tag kind of goes with it.
    If I'm not mistaken, that Ben Wallace contract turned out to be one of the worst ever. Tyson's probably a better comparison, but he was an Olympian that had just completed a championship season in which he shot over 65%. And it was the Knicks who signed him.

    I'm not saying he won't get max offers, he probably will, but defensive specialists don't normally get paid like superstars. That kind of money is usually reserved for great offensive players who are expected to produce night in and night out.

  32. #246
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If I'm not mistaken, that Ben Wallace contract turned out to be one of the worst ever. Tyson's probably a better comparison, but he was an Olympian that had just completed a championship season in which he shot over 65%. And it was the Knicks who signed him.
    Well the Pistons' version of Ben Wallace would easily have been worth that money. But the point is that he did get a very large offer as an undersized defensive center with mediocre stats. So let's say Roy gets a huge offer elsewhere and turns into a bust, does that actually help the Pacers in any way? We'd still be out one very good center. Same argument applies for Lance btw. Even if he becomes a bad contract on another team, the Pacers would still have lost a valuable contributor.

    Which is not to say that we have to keep either player AT ALL COSTS. Past a certain point, a good player making much more than he's worth becomes a detriment to team building. I think (hope) we all understand this. The disagreements arise because the number I put on Lance for example is very different than the one that say, able, does. And the disagreements aren't going away any time soon because of this fundamental difference in valuation.

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  34. #247
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    If you go on a neutral forum, I think most people will pick Lance over these guys (with the exception of maybe Afflalo) by a landslide. Note too that Lance is the youngest with only DD and Tyreke being close in age. Potential factors in to the high valuation of Lance, whether you think it's warranted or not.
    I disagree. Lance may be a better all around player, but that doesn't make him BETTER than these other guys. The other players I mentioned have had multiple years of production, whereas this is Lance's first year in his four year career where he's even averaged double figures scoring--and it just so happens to be a contract year. Also it all depends on the type of player you would rather have. Some would rather have a player that can consistently shoot, score at a good rate over someone who does many things well but isn't the type of player that can blow up for 30 plus points. I feel that Matthews, Affalo and Derozan are just as good, just have different strengths. Guys like Tyreke, and Monta are a notch below, but it isn't such a significant drop off that Lance should be considered better by a Landslide. Just a matter of opinion I guess.

    I don't dislike Lance. I've grown to enjoy watching him play, and I think he's a great asset for this team. My gripe is that I just don't think Lance is good enough to be a number two option option on an elite team when he's not flanked by security blankets such as GH and DW within the starting lineup. I would assume that about 70% of NBA players have career years during their contract seasons and I'm not fully convinced this isn't example. Others think differently, and it is what it is. Hopefully I'm wrong but we will see what happens.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 01-28-2014 at 09:37 AM.

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  36. #248

    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    While I would NEVER question Mr. Bird, I don't understand why we didn't offer Lance an extension for 4 years at about 4-5 million before we resigned PG to his killer contract. I believe LS would have taken $5m at the start of the season and been happy for awhile. That would have still let us sign the Max deal with Paul by using Granger's expiring money to pay him. Depending on the Cap space we would be facing at the end of our Championship run season, we could have still offered DG the MLE and kept the core(6) on the team. Would this work money wise or am I dreaming? I just believe teams wait too long to make offers to their players(like we did with Roy) when they start showing signs of being special. IMHO, extensions for decent money, like we did with Hill and West, is a much desired outcome to the PANIC matching of offers from teams with Cap space and desperation on their side.

  37. #249
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    While I would NEVER question Mr. Bird, I don't understand why we didn't offer Lance an extension for 4 years at about 4-5 million before we resigned PG to his killer contract. I believe LS would have taken $5m at the start of the season and been happy for awhile. That would have still let us sign the Max deal with Paul by using Granger's expiring money to pay him. Depending on the Cap space we would be facing at the end of our Championship run season, we could have still offered DG the MLE and kept the core(6) on the team. Would this work money wise or am I dreaming? I just believe teams wait too long to make offers to their players(like we did with Roy) when they start showing signs of being special. IMHO, extensions for decent money, like we did with Hill and West, is a much desired outcome to the PANIC matching of offers from teams with Cap space and desperation on their side.
    Before the season started, would you honestly had signed Lance to 5 mil per year? I dont think I would have, I don't think we saw this coming to this degree.
    .

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  38. #250
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    Default Re: What are you willing to see the Pacers pay to keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Um Ben Wallace? You definitely can get a big money contract when you're DPOY and widely regarded as the best defensive big man in the game. Exhibit B: old and injury prone Tyson Chandler is making $14m this year and $15m next. Tell me some team wouldn't pay Hibbert in his prime more money than that.

    In a way, we've been a victim of our drafting success. Our players are really good - and the high price tag kind of goes with it.
    Tyson Chandler signed that contract after being the defense anchor on a championship team, and then of course won DPOY the next year in NYC. Not mention has averaged pretty much near a double double since being in NYC. In terms of a defensive specialist, he is the perfect example of what you want from a defense focused center. The reality is that Roy Hibbert isn't going to average a double double anytime in his career. He is infact, just like Lance....a product of a successful system that has really good defenders all around him. If you put Swap
    Hibbert and Chandler, the Pacers would still have the best record in the NBA. The Knicks would still be terrible.

    Roy will not get 18 million, a smart GM would never offer him that because he knows that the Pacers have a unique starting 5 that can guard their own man, thus eliminating the constant help defense or rotation that gets guys out of position. So you have to have the right kind of roster, if Hibbert had to constant rotate over the help he would be in foul trouble every game in the 1st qtr. Its easy to stay on the court when all you have to do is patrol the paint.
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