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Thread: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

  1. #26

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by rabid View Post
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    There's no way to know exactly what's going to happen this summer, but to me this just reinforces the notion that THIS is the year for our team. Yes, we MAY sit at the top of the standings throughout next season as well, but there are no guarantees.

    Granger is probably gone this summer.
    Scola may need to be waived to keep Lance.
    West turns 34 this August and will be on the decline.

    Yeah guys like Lance and George might continue to get better for another year or two, but probably not in the leaps and bounds they've progressed in the past two years. Hill has peaked. Roy is in his prime and is probably at his peak (or very close) as well.

    Also, some other team(s) are going to be as good or even better than last year. Injuries could happen. etc.

    I think we have a good chance at contending for the next few years but we really can't take this season for granted. We just can't count on having the combination of youth, bench depth, and underpaid guys (Lance, Scola in terms of cap hit) in the subsequent years after this.

    This season is special. It's time to win it all in 2014 folks. We may never get a better chance than this.


    An easy remedy for this is keep everyone, cept Danny. Trade George Hill to a team under the cap. Now, we not only have more than enough to sign Lance back, but add a starting caliber PG upgrade as well. Also you forget Rasual Butler comes off our books at season's end, and we can always trade Ian, Orlando, and Solomon to a team under the cap to clear more space.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    An easy remedy for this is keep everyone, cept Danny. Trade George Hill to a team under the cap. Now, we not only have more than enough to sign Lance back, but add a starting caliber PG upgrade as well. Also you forget Rasual Butler comes off our books at season's end, and we can always trade Ian, Orlando, and Solomon to a team under the cap to clear more space.
    So how are we supposed to upgrade our PG spot and keep Lance? And how is it a good idea to get rid of our bench

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    The team is all in for a title run. I don't want to move anyone that might prevent that from happening even if it would mean missing the playoffs next year and that won't happen. The only player I'd want us to move would be Copeland for cap space if it didn't cost the team anything else to move him.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    So how are we supposed to upgrade our PG spot and keep Lance? And how is it a good idea to get rid of our bench

    Ok let me expound....


    If we let Danny go right? We have enough to re-sign Lance. But, if he makes the AS team, combined with winning MIP. That bumps up his market value. So we'd probably need to get rid of Ian to be able to sign him. Also this depends on if another team makes an offer to him. I think with LBJ, Wade, Melo, being free agents this coming Summer.....we have time to work out a fair deal with Lance. Anyone thinking of making him an offer, will wait to see where LBJ, Wade, Bosh, and Melo land. We can use that time to not make a BIG overpay offer. Because there won't be a big rush.

    So, if we trade George Hill to a team under the cap, that leaves us with more than enough to re-sign Lance, and maybe pursue Bledsoe who's restricted. Or sign Kyle Lowry. If we re-sign Lance by just letting Danny go, and trading Ian? That's a bonus. We can trade GH, and use that slot to throw money at Lowry. We'd still have one of our exceptions, which can go towards a replacement backup center.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Ok let me expound....


    If we let Danny go right? We have enough to re-sign Lance. But, if he makes the AS team, combined with winning MIP. That bumps up his market value. So we'd probably need to get ride of Ian to be able to sign him. Also this depends on if another team makes an offer to him. I think with LBJ, Wade, Melo, being free agents this coming Summer.....we have time to work out a fair deal with Lance. Anyone thinking of making him an offer, will wait to see where LBJ, Wade, Bosh, and Melo land. We can use that time to not make a BIG overpay offer. Because there won't be a big rush.

    So, if we trade George Hill to a team under the cap, that leaves us with more than enough to re-sign Lance, and maybe pursue Bledsoe who's restricted. Or sign Kyle Lowry. If we re-sign Lance by just letting Danny go, and trading Ian? That's a bonus. We can trade GH, and use that slot to throw money at Lowry. We'd still have one of our exceptions, which can go towards a replacement backup center.
    There is no way that would ever happen. Look at the numbers it just doesn't work. Dannys money is going to George anyway

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by rabid View Post
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    Granger is probably gone this summer.
    Scola may need to be waived to keep Lance.
    West turns 34 this August and will be on the decline.
    Let me ask a hypothetical... Is Lance enough of a player that we can let Granger walk and cut Scola... Would you trade Granger and Scola for Lance??

    I think that would be a pretty steep price... Given that I feel Scola has a very favorable price to production ratio... I think that it is all but certain that we bring back Lois next year because of this...

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  8. #32

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    There is no way that would ever happen. Look at the numbers it just doesn't work. Dannys money is going to George anyway
    I don't work in the front office, so I dunno. But I know trading Hill would clear up cash for a new PG and to re-sign Lance. Remember, the last two years of Hill's contract would be off our books. We could also trade for Rondo. He's on the last year of his contract. There are options for replacements if we re-sign Lance, and have to trade Hill. Nick Young, Marcus Thornton, Rodney Stuckey, Lou Williams, and Rondo just to name a few.

  9. #33

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I don't work in the front office, so I dunno. But I know trading Hill would clear up cash for a new PG and to re-sign Lance. Remember, the last two years of Hill's contract would be off our books. We could also trade for Rondo. He's on the last year of his contract. There are options for replacements if we re-sign Lance, and have to trade Hill. Nick Young, Marcus Thornton, Rodney Stuckey, Lou Williams, and Rondo just to name a few.
    Your hatred of hill is really clouding your judgement

  10. #34
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    I swear, some of you guys think this is just a video game where you swap guys in and out and expect the same results. It doesn't work that way, and if it were that easy every team would be able to do it and maintain the same level of quality.

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  12. #35
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Your hatred of hill is really clouding your judgement
    Looking at the names that he has there has me scratching my head...
    I am a big Hill guy, but I think that he is the most replaceable starter at the moment... You could resign CJ and make him the starter and sign another quality backup...

    I think that the most likely scenario to play out this offseason is that we trim some of the fat off of the payroll to keep as much of the core together as possible... Let Danny walk, trade Cope, stretch provision Ian, sign 1 year minimum contracts, etc... That leaves us with 7 of the key guys from this year to go to battle next year...

  13. #36

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Your hatred of hill is really clouding your judgement
    I don't hate him, just think if we have to move a player to open space it'd be him. Then again, maybe Herb will say lets go over the cap a bit and this could work. But I doubt it. I also wish some internet billionaire would hurry up and invest or become co-owner of the Pacers already. This team is missing a Mark Zuckerberg like character with deep pockets attending games. I keep thinking of the perfect face for this team like Cuban is for the Mavs? And it'd be a Twitter billionaire or a Facebook billionaire or an Instagram millionaire.

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I don't hate him, just think if we have to move a player to open space it'd be him. Then again, maybe Herb will say lets go over the cap a bit and this could work. But I doubt it. I also wish some internet billionaire would hurry up and invest or become co-owner of the Pacers already. This team is missing a Mark Zuckerberg like character with deep pockets attending games. I keep thinking of the perfect face for this team like Cuban is for the Mavs? And it'd be a Twitter billionaire or a Facebook billionaire or an Instagram millionaire.
    ...which opens the door to the possiblity of the Pacers moving... PASS

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We must pay Lance whatever it takes.
    you gotta be kidding me. pay lance more than d west.


    its very similar to the rondo situation.. he played around 3 all stars and it made him great. prob is we don't have the cash that boston can shell out.


    did anyone read the Larry Legend article a few weeks ago.

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  18. #39

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Are people seriously saying we should match give Lance the Max if somebody else is stupid enough to offer him that. I like Lance and want to keep him around. But I would rather. Keep Granger and try to further improve our Front court

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Maybe Jazz will sign him for 12+ mil and be willing to trade us Hayward for like 8mil. seeing Jazz didnt offer him an extension and he wants to be here anyways. I'd love to have our home grown white boy in a Pacers uni.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I doubt we waive scola to save money. More likely we will trade Copeland
    This. Can't see Larry Legend giving up a first round pick for a one year rental of Scola. Copeland would be moved, and I think at one year 3 million and maybe a second round pick or two, some team would probably take him.

  22. #42

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Your hatred of hill is really clouding your judgement
    Lot of that going on around here.

  23. #43
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Maybe Jazz will sign him for 12+ mil and be willing to trade us Hayward for like 8mil. seeing Jazz didnt offer him an extension and he wants to be here anyways. I'd love to have our home grown white boy in a Pacers uni.
    Really... Why does it matter the skin color...

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    Really... Why does it matter the skin color...
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    If we win the finals does that put him out of our price range?

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    If it ends up that we can't keep Lance I think we can still be a title contender without completely filling that void.
    I honestly don't. At least, not with what we currently have on the roster. I think if we lose Lance, and you expect Danny or anyone else we have under contract to "fill the void", you'll be disappointed. For this, I'm willing to sacrifice our bench, than our starters....especially considering that last year with a crappy bench we still were one game away from the finals.

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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    I honestly don't. At least, not with what we currently have on the roster. I think if we lose Lance, and you expect Danny or anyone else we have under contract to "fill the void", you'll be disappointed. For this, I'm willing to sacrifice our bench, than our starters....especially considering that last year with a crappy bench we still were one game away from the finals.
    I've came to terms with the fact that no matter what we'll be worse next year.
    Keep Lance and lose Danny and we're worse because we won't be filling the void that Danny leaves.
    Keep Lance and lose Danny and Scola and we're much worse.
    Keep Danny and Scola but lose Lance and we're worse.
    Overpay Lance and lose Hibbert the following year and we're done.
    You can't fill all the voids but I do believe we are still a title contender without Lance if that happens. We're not a contender is we lose Hibbert.
    I may be in the minority but I don't think we can just pay Lance whatever it takes. If I am in the minority I'm glad part of that group includes Larry Bird. Larry isn't going to gut the team to keep Lance, he's said he'll plug someone else in and we'll be o.k.

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  30. #48

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Pencil me in as someone who enjoys Lance's talent and production, but also as someone who sees him as 90% replaceable if his cost is too high. In a Lance replacement, you're looking for a guy who can guard his position, shoot the 3, and act as a secondary ballhandler. A guy like Aaron Afflalo, Thabo Sefolosha or Evan Turner would replace most or even all of Lance's production for around $8 million per season. You could also bring in a big point guard like Vasquez or Stuckey and have Hill play 2 on offense and 1 on defense, which is pretty much what he does now anyways.

    Meanwhile, Scola is producing what you would expect of a big man making about 5-6 million. No way you cut him to retain Lance at $12m per. For that matter, Danny will get a good price in free agency, but most likely less than $10m per. Would you rather have Danny and Scola, or Lance? Would you rather have Sefolosha and Scola, or Lance?

    If that asking price goes much above $8m per, I think it's time to look at cost-effective replacement players. I believe Hill is actually more valuable than Lance because he can guard any PG in the league, and can also slide over and play shooting guard. He's just as versatile as Lance, a better shooter, and defending arguably the most important position in the league to defend. If you trade Hill for a replacement level player and sign Lance, you run the risk of guys like CP3, Westbrook, and Rondo getting Hibbert and West in foul trouble on a regular basis. I don't think that Hibbert's foul trouble issues dropping when Hill joined the team is a coincidence.

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  32. #49

    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Well, explain.

    I could understand wanting the hometown kid. Why you had to specify color though ........... ??????

  33. #50
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    Default Re: Pacers Dilemma (insider request)

    I don't know and don't care anymore what Lance is going to get paid because I believe the playoffs are truly going to determine his value.

    Right now however the current "dilemma" may be is should Danny start getting minutes at the end of games. I don't think were gonna change the starting lineup this season and Danny is likely not ready for heavy minutes but if all goes well and he continues his recovery its going to happen.

    This is not a knock on Stephenson except for the fact I at times significantly question his maturity and by that I mean in stritctly a basketball sense. ie. does he always make the right play, and does he do what is best for the team. at times its an astounding and emphatic yes,,, other times not so much and it disrupts things offensively for us.

    hear me out.

    when lance reaches his prime he is going to be one helluva player, but there are times when his attributes with our starting lineup is not a great fit believe it or not. without going into too much detail I believe it primarily revolves around his maturity and making the right play at all times. the veteran savvy will come with time but recently I have begun to wonder how good we can be if Danny begins playing at the end of games in the starting lineup.

    what I love about that possibility is the size that Danny brings to our starting 5. he also brings what I discussed above is a veteran presence which just fits in nicely to what we are all about. I am not ready to see this happen just yet because Danny is still recovering. I only mention now because I have noticed Vogel implemented Granger into the starting lineup the other nite when Lance was struggling vs GS and even more so vs PHX. Its obvious Dannys legs and conditioning are not there yet but they will be if all things go well and at that time this team may become more productive with danny in the starting lineup than without.


    Lance brings passing but at times its just too darn careless and not in the best intersts of the team but in the best interests of SC highlights. The one asset I am convinced cannot be replaced if Lance is not on the court is the fast break. Guy just excels in the open court like very few in the nba. defensively lance and granger (when fully conditioned) are pretty darn even and prob would be determined by matchups.

    however, I think Dannys size is a bigger advantage for us.


    Danny notoriously starts seasons slow with shooting.. so I expect him to find his touch soon and when that happens Coach Vogel is going to have to find out somehow someway which starting 5 is going to best finishing games.


    I just really like where Danny is right now.. so many questioned if he can accept a lesser role and its very clear that Danny is all about winning (even in a contract year).. whereas Lance I think has a dual purpose at times.

    Lance is going to get pd... I realize he will likely make the AS game but I don't care. I really think Coach Vogel is considering this already in that who is the best 5 for us to finish games.

    as lance continues to flourish we would likely be wondering if he should be starting point which would make our size incredicbly imposing w a lance paul backcourt but that time is not right now as lance simply cannot be trusted to make the smart pass in direct contrast to the highlight pass.


    Dannys veteran presence with our starters could really be something. I guess it comes down to Dannys shooting or Lances playmaking.


    imho this is the relevant "dilemma" we will likely be discussing soon once Granger fully returns to form (and by that I mean about 80% of what Granger once was prior to the knee).

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