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  1. #1
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Posting this because it's interesting, even though part of it goes against something I've been preaching for a couple years now.

    http://www.indycornrows.com/2014/1/1...nce-stephenson

    Also, all of the concerns about Granger and George playing together may have some truth behind them. In 128 minutes with those two on the floor together, the Pacers have been outscored by 6.7 points per 100 possessions. The offense is the problem as the offensive rating is 82.8, while the defensive rating is 89.6.

    Granger is the best wing off of the bench, and suggesting someone like Rasual Butler should get more minutes over Granger is silly, but the Granger-George pairing hasn’t been effective.

    The best overall two-man unit is Granger and Stephenson. The Pacers have outscored opponents by 24.5 points per 100 possessions in 114 minutes with that duo on the court.

    In fact the top four defensive duos all include Granger. He is a part of eight different pairs that hold opponents to less than 90 points per 100 possessions.
    I still think I'm right... I think we're dealing with a small sample size. Still, pretty interesting. The whole article is worth reading. Head over there and check it out.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Sample size is too small.

    But I have not seen anything to change my opinion that when Granger is in for Lance, we lose a lot of ball handling and playmaking. But then we gain outside shooting

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But I have not seen anything to change my opinion that when Granger is in for Lance, we lose a lot of ball handling and playmaking. But then we gain outside shooting
    In theory, certainly. In practice, Lance has been a better outside shooter by a significant margin.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Lance knows how to find people. Has gotten Scola and Granger good, clean shots. PG is primarily looking to score
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    I honestly think that every single one of our players is better when paired with Lance than with any other player on our roster.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I honestly think that every single one of our players is better when paired with Lance than with any other player on our roster.
    Production falls off when any of the starters step off the floor. Lance is actually at the lower end of impact out of the starters, although the difference between the starters is pretty minimal, only a few points.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I honestly think that every single one of our players is better when paired with Lance than with any other player on our roster.
    that is an interesting statement. Let me think about that for a minute.

    I think you could make a strong case for the exact same statement about West, Hibbert and Paul George. I guess the question is which player is the best at this. I think every player is better when paired with West, but are they better with West or Lance. I don't know.

    I will say that I agree wit you as far as Lance being the guy that delivers the ball to a teammate.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I honestly think that every single one of our players is better when paired with Lance than with any other player on our roster.
    I really really hope you are correct about this.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though
    I agree with this. It's hard to tell right now because George is in such a slump. Whether that coincides with Granger's return or not, I don't know. However, he's not hitting the shots that were automatic at the beginning of the year.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though
    Probably a pretty good bit of it. Since Danny's return, PG is averaging 19pts which is down about 4pts from where it was prior. His shooting is relatively similiar at 43% but his 3pt% has fallen off as he's shooting under 33%. (Taking 6.4 and only making 1.9) Is Paul just struggling or is he having a hard time adapting to Danny? I think he's just struggling, as he had worse overall shooting numbers the prior 5 games than he has since Danny came back. (38.5fg% and 38 3pt%)

    The thing I find rather interesting is Danny's impact defensively.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-13-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though
    This is what I wanted to post, no question PG has been in a huge slump ever since he was named eastern conference player of the month or whatever it was.

    However I do agree that when Lance is in vs when Lance is out does make a difference.

    I think we are safer when CJ is in and Lance is out than when Lance is out and Hill is the playmaker. We need a playmaker on the floor and Lance is filling that Role, CJ is a better playmaker than Hill so its not a complete loss of playmaking when he comes in.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though
    And he attracts a ton of defensive attention

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    How much of this is just because George is in a huge slump though
    I'd say about 95%

    They are often in there together with C.J. Watson who is a capable ball handler and distributor so it's not always because of lack of a good point guard.

    No these numbers would look different if Paul was still hitting mid range shots like he was the first 25 or so games of the season.


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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Granger/George hasn't been effective statistically because George has gone in the tank offensively, regardless of who is out there. And Granger naturally is still finding his groove.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    VOGEL will not allow Stephenson to run point guard for at least 60% of the time he is on the floor this season. Look at the production with Hill replaced at the PG role.
    "The Pacers most effective lineup on the season has been Stephenson, George and Hibbert joined by C.J. Watson and Luis Scola. That unit is scoring 133.3 points per 100 possessions, and outscoring opponents by 39.3 points per 100 possessions. This lineup has been used in 16 games, but for just 47 minutes.If you replace Watson with Hill, the offensive rating jumps up to 143.9, but the defensive rating climbs as well, and that unit outscores opponents by 36.4 points per 100 possessions."
    I think Vogel is a good coach and has done a very good job with the Pacers, but he just need to make this unbelievably simple adjustment ! Stephenson needs to come down the floor and run the plays Hill is running for these reasons. Lance loves creating, he leads the team in assists. When he comes down the floor he's immediately putting pressure on the defense because of his explosive aggressiveness as soon as the possession starts to create easy scoring opportunities (that is something every point guard needs and Hill lacks.) Stephenson would also have a strength and size advantage to other PG defenders and better ability to feed our large lineup. He also knows how to control the tempo decently and given the chance the start point guard he would only become better at that because this team is perfect for him ! SECOND, Hill is an efficient low turnover PG no doubt. He will get the play run almost every single time, but hes so predictable ! This causes turnovers, broken plays, 1 on 1's, LOW FG % aka ugly offence and easy points for the other teams and discourages our team on defense!! I love when Hill is on the wing looking to SLASH and shoot. He's an excellent slasher in my opinion and great at little slip passes, he is truly a good SG. The last 4 minuets of the game I would have Hill at PG for sure. The game slows down and execution so in the mean time I would let Hill close. Lance should run PG about 80% of the time he's out there. Stephenson is a great learner so he at least deserves a chance, if you don't at least believe that it's a damn shame. They both know they are not playing their natural positions and it shows every single game, utilize them to their strengths and our team would be unstoppable !

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    I wonder how Lance-George is doing since Granger came back? It can help to put things in perspective.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Sample size is way to small. Danny just trying to get back and Paul cant hit a broad side of a barn lately. This is no different then the sample size of Scola and West playing together.
    Just a bored soul putting stupid crap out there to try and prove a point.
    .

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Here are a few more stats to get a more complete view. These are the seven line-ups featuring George and Granger.

    Minutes - Players - ORtg - DRtg - O/D difference

    32 - Watson/Scola/Mahinmi - 93 - 92 - +1
    24 - Hill/West/Hibbert - 63 - 131 - -63
    22 - Hill/Scola/Hibbert - 81 - 77 - +04
    14 - Watson/Scola/hibbert - 121 - 86 - +35
    13 - Hill/West/Mahinmi - 120 - 79 - +42
    11 - Watson/West/Mahinmi - 52 - 116 - -64
    4 - Watson/West/Hibbert - 113 - 25 +88

    If you ignore the last one for sample size reasons, it seems more like West and Danny are the ones not gelling.


    Also there is only one Granger/Stephenson line-up that doesn't outscore its opponents by at least 14 points per 100 possessions, and it only played for 3 minutes.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Also there is only one Granger/Stephenson line-up that doesn't outscore its opponents by at least 14 points per 100 possessions, and it only played for 3 minutes.
    Right, but it's still suffering from a small sample size.

    A lot of those numbers come from a few games where everybody feasted on poor teams.
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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Granger and Lance are so good because Lance is in the primary wing position. While Danny is running the baseline, cutting in the lane, and camping the corner three.

    The best, most effective play is when Watson brings the ball up. Granger sets up left side wing. Scola is high post right. Lance is corner right, and Ian is low block right. Lance gets a screen by Ian and receives the entry from Granger. There Lance abuses weaker SGs. There was no reason why that wasn't called more than once against Beal. And I watched Lance call it to Danny last game but it got botched.
    http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=178

    This is with Hibbert and West.
    Lance catches too far out (late pass by Danny). The spacing is horrible on the other side of the lane (Watson should be at the top of the lane instead of West). And Roy needed to flatten out more on the baseline (go to the short corner). And then Lance just forces it.

    But how many times have we seen that work? It is the most effective set out there.

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    So we are all in agreement, we need to grade Paul!!

    Kidding, Kidding

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    Default Re: Cornrows: Most Effective Lineups

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    So we are all in agreement, we need to grade Paul!!

    Kidding, Kidding
    Well you can grade him just don't trade him!

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