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Thread: And thus, it begins.

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default And thus, it begins.

    Today's latest drivel about how we will take the long steady turtle approach while letting the rabbit wear himself out.

    Dear God I've seen this interview so many times over the past few years I could quote it by memory, only this time they are inserting the name Bird where Walsh was. I love the part that Bird told Donny not to panic, sure Larry I was afraid that Donnie would make a knee jerk trade because we all know he love's those.

    So to all you Artest fans out there, I say be of good cheer. Your boy is a Pacer & no matter how much I (or maybe even a few others) hate it, he will be next year as well.

    Detroit fans you have no idea how good you really have it.

    From today's star:

    http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/218724-9776-179.html

    Bird plays waiting game
    Pacers president refuses to overreact to current struggles; says Artest will return a changed man.


    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    January 31, 2005


    In 1978, the Boston Celtics were coming off a 32-50 season and had the sixth pick in the NBA draft.

    The easy and popular thing to do would have been to take the player most able to bring immediate relief to a troubled franchise and its impatient fan base. General manager Red Auerbach, however, had a grander vision. He selected Larry Bird, who still had a season of eligibility at Indiana State, and waited.

    Auerbach's reward was a Hall of Fame player who led the Celtics to championships in 1981, '84 and '86. The lesson was just as obvious.

    "Let me tell you something," Auerbach would tell Bird years later. "A year is not very long. It goes by like that."

    Bird will keep that lesson firmly in mind this month in his role as the Indiana Pacers team president. The team has been butchered by suspension, injury and illness, and takes a four-game losing streak and a 20-22 record into tonight's game at Philadelphia. With phone lines starting to hum in anticipation of the NBA's Feb. 24 trade deadline, Bird could easily be tempted to punch a panic button.

    Like Auerbach, however, he believes projection is more important to a franchise's well-being than reaction.

    He and CEO Donnie Walsh don't just see a battered team with an identity crisis. They see a team that also was among the NBA's elite in the nine games leading to, and including, the one at Detroit on Nov. 19, when a historic brawl disrupted their season.

    They don't just see a team that needs a small forward to replace the suspended Ron Artest. They see a team that will have Artest back next season -- a new and improved Artest, they believe.

    "I keep telling Donnie, we can't panic in this situation," Bird said. "We have to stay together."

    Walsh already knows, having been through trying periods before. In the early 1990s the Pacers were still struggling after accumulating high draft picks. There was pressure to trade Rik Smits, whose career started slowly, but Walsh held firm. In 1999, after the team Bird coached lost to New York in the Eastern Conference finals, pressure mounted to break up a veteran team. Walsh held firm again and the Pacers reached the NBA Finals the following season. Smits retired after that season as the franchise's No. 2 all-time scorer behind Reggie Miller.

    "I always think long-term," Walsh said.

    That's not to say Bird and Walsh don't listen to and initiate trade conversations, or that they don't see room for improvement in their roster and payroll structure.

    Their second- and third-highest paid players, Austin Croshere and Jonathan Bender, combine to earn nearly $15 million but don't start. They see a gaping hole at small forward left by Artest and a shaky backcourt, where injuries and illness have taken their toll on point guards Jamaal Tinsley and Anthony Johnson.

    "If there's a deal out there where we think we can better our team, we will do it," Bird said.

    Such a deal, however, almost certainly won't include Artest despite widespread assumptions and opinions. It's virtually impossible to make a good trade for an All-Star player whose salary is "only" $6.1 million and whose reputation around the league has hit rock-bottom because of his suspension. But there's also the growing feeling that Artest should benefit greatly from his seasonlong suspension.

    Does Bird expect Artest to return a changed man?

    "Oh, yeah," he said, smiling. "Oh, yeah.

    "I've said that to other teams, too. They call about Ronnie and I say, 'Hey, man, we're over the hump now. We get through this year and we're over the hump.' "

    Artest has used his time off to improve his mind and his body, engaging in private workouts on and off the basketball court and meeting with counselors. The franchise keeps the specifics of his personal work private, but people are sensing a new outlook from him.

    "I think things that bothered him in the past won't bother him now," Bird said.

    "Ronnie was always one of those guys who'd say, 'I don't need this; I can always go back to where I grew up and hang out and play ball.' That's over with. He realizes he loves this league. He's like everybody. He took it for granted and now he doesn't have it.

    "It's not just the money part, but the actual basketball part. The competing. When people retire the thing they miss is the locker room and the competition. That's what he's finding out."

    The Pacers, meanwhile, are finding out how badly they need him on the court. And if they have to endure a difficult season to get back a 25-year-old All-Star, Bird knows how quickly it will be forgotten in the grander scheme of things.

    He knows the rewards of judicious patience, too.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Bender is #3 on the payroll??? And a poster that shall remain nameless wanted to argue that we don't over pay our own players.

    ---

    The Insider article says teams aren't interested in Artest and this article has this:

    "I've said that to other teams, too. They call about Ronnie and I say, 'Hey, man, we're over the hump now. We get through this year and we're over the hump.' "
    -----

    Did Bird really say this or did he just give a number that cross-referenced to find the canned quote:
    "If there's a deal out there where we think we can better our team, we will do it," Bird said.
    I think I have that phrase burned into my brain from about this time every year for the about the past 20 years.

    -----
    "In the early 1990s the Pacers were still struggling after accumulating high draft picks. There was pressure to trade Rik Smits, whose career started slowly, but Walsh held firm."
    Some of the pressure no doubt came from the coaching staff.

    ----

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    NBADraftNet.com still has us listed as picking #17 and taking 6'3" PG John Gilchrist from Maryland. (Jr.)
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Can anyone honestly say they are surprised by this article ? I think I formed my answer back at the end of Nov. , early Dec. that Artest is gonna be a Pacer Next year unless they get a outstanding off they can't refuse. I don't see that deal ethier but I guess the people who hate Artest can dream.

    I honestly believe Bender will be gone before Artest , I also believe that Donnie and Larry and even Rick have had serious discussions with Artest. Along the lines of how if he messes up again he's gone for life and not just a year , also how critical he will be looked upon once he returns to the court for playing.

    Honestly I wasn't shocked about this article or what it says.

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSauceMaster
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    Can anyone honestly say they are surprised by this article ? I think I formed my answer back at the end of Nov. , early Dec. that Artest is gonna be a Pacer Next year unless they get a outstanding off they can't refuse. I don't see that deal ethier but I guess the people who hate Artest can dream.

    I honestly believe Bender will be gone before Artest , I also believe that Donnie and Larry and even Rick have had serious discussions with Artest. Along the lines of how if he messes up again he's gone for life and not just a year , also how critical he will be looked upon once he returns to the court for playing.

    Honestly I wasn't shocked about this article or what it says.
    I've always said I'd like to see the young man succeed and to do so as a Pacer BUT I thought the brass had decided long ago to cut bait with him. They are now in a "no-choice" situation. Until he goes thru at the minimum 1/2 to 1 1/2 seasons pure as a Choir Boy, nobody will risk it. Then again, these fluff articles were predicted just recently (by who???) as being a prelude to an attemp to move him by the deadline. Whoever it was even pointed out that the night before Jalen's trade they were denying any attempt to move him.
    Yes, he's ours. But Jimminies I hope they DO SOMETHING to salvage this season!

    QUESTION to those of more coaching knowledge than I: How does having Jax play SF this season impact his ability to play SG wnext? Would it impact how say the PG's perceive how and where he wants to get the ball etc????
    I'm no coach so enlighten me. (I have ref'd tho)
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Huh - Pacers taking the conservative route? Mark Monteith writing a fluff piece kissing management's collective butts?

    Who woulda thought?
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    QUESTION to those of more coaching knowledge than I: How does having Jax play SF this season impact his ability to play SG wnext? Would it impact how say the PG's perceive how and where he wants to get the ball etc????
    I'm no coach so enlighten me. (I have ref'd tho)
    Shouldn't make much difference. In the NBA SF is mostly a perimeter position anyway. I've always figure those two positions are almost interchangeable.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  8. #8
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    My biggest problem is that everyboyd is using some on court incident to judge next season for Artest.

    I'll go on record now, he won't go into the stands next year so we don't have to worry about it.

    I am far far far more concerned with what happens between Ron & his team mates here in Indiana, generaly behind closed doors. Although over the past few days Bird & Walsh have admitted to what all of us were saying back in Oct./Nov.

    J.O. & Ron do NOT get along. The fight in the locker room & on the airplane was not the first confrontation between the two players.

    Now everybody says that Koby & Shaq didn't like each other either, but thats them not us. Also, because they didn't get along they are no longer together.

    I said at the begining of last season that it would wear on the team to have to babysit Ron all season long & from the sounds of it I was right. You cannot put that much time, effort & energy into just one player no matter how good they are.

    I have no doubt that Ron will come back, be as good as ever on the court & he will not go after fans or even do any flagrant fouls. But all of the other garbage that goes along with Ron will still be here & still cause the team problems.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    I think it's gonna take more than 1 season and possiably 2 before people start saying Artest is no longer a risk like he is now. Your just not gonna find to many people desperate to take the risk and the Pacers realize it and aren't gonna give him away for nothing. I do believe though it's been explained to Ron that next time will be a life ban , I guess we will see how much winning and basketball means to Mr. Artest.

    But I do agree before that night , we had a championship team that had finals written all over it.

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    Offical Thread Killer TheSauceMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Peck you said it right there ...Kobe and Shaq didn't get along and that's been reported widely , but they got the job done that was expected of them. They won what 3 championships ? and played for how many years together ?

    When you have Ego's and I believe both Ron and J.O have ego's your gonna have disputes on the team , and I bet alot of other teams who have more than 1 superstar have the same issues ..you just don't hear too much about it. I know it helps if you get a long but I don't think it's a requirement , after all they are men and they all seem to have the same goals they want a championship.

    I could have quit every job I have had for a person I didn't like working with or for whatever fruitless reason then that seems kinda silly and childish. Just like when I get paid for a job I am expected to get the job I'm being paid for done , not too be best buddies with everyone.

  11. #11
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Ron keeps heating our discussions, for all the wrong reasons.

    Peck I agree partly with you, 100% where it concerns the public behaviour of Ron, however I have a feeling that the internal problems will diminish as well, unlike you.
    I think that it has been made clear to Ron that he is expendable, more now than even before, JO stepping on him does not have to be long time thing, JO has stepped on others and will continue to do so according to his own statements, it is his team, he will kick butt if need be.

    I also firmly believe that they can move past that, certainly over time.

    I more so believe that Ron's suspension will be reviewed and shortened, which is perhaps one of the reasons that the "not yet" statement has been made in regards to trades.

    It is also very clear that once the Pacers trade Ron they can easily be snakebitten by that trade, unless they get value back.
    Those advocating trading Ron for a bag of chips and a wet cookie are seemingly blind to the business side of the matter and the team build up.
    Ron is 2nd player on this team, no matter what, and you do not replace a guy on that level for nothing without being punished hard.
    One hope they had (JB coming out) has been quashed hard, so hard they are looking to get rid of him, Cro is also simply not viable as a bench player, good starter for some teams, but nor good enough for the Pacers and as a bench player he can simply not bring it with any consistency so he will keep on up taking a large chunk of salary for DNP-CD's

    Sad but truthful.

    DW & LB would give a pot o gold to anyone who would give them a solution or reasonable trade for the contracts of Cro and JB, because it is a chunk that prevents them from taking measures now to fill the temporary gap we have at SF/SG.

    What will happen over the next 3.5 weeks ?

    Pacers will look to trade either Cro or JB or both to re-inforce the SF/SG position, with additional thoughts on safeguards should Ron not get it together.
    Pollard will soon take over the starting C position for a few games, Harrisson once back will get more and more minutes, simply because JO wants it that way, IF Polly is to irregular due to his back. If Polly can play consistenly then the starting C position will be his the rest of the season with Jeff providing a spark and Hulk getting a fair share of minutes, if that happens Cro will only see DNP's because Jeff will partly take over the PF minutes to release JO 10 mpg as well as 10 mpg at C, Hulk will probably avg 18 at C and Polly 20.
    Reggie's minutes will go down further, which is good for him and the team, the 33+ he's playing now is simply to much for him, he should go down to 15 -20 mpg, Fred needs to step up big time.
    Jax will be getting into stride and JJ will be his main relieve of the bench.
    JO will get a few shots more then the last 2 - 3 games, where he went down to avg 21 FGA and go back up to 27 FGA.
    If we can keep Mel Mel well, then he will avg close to the same number of shots as Jax, withe very reason and his Ast rate will be up to around 10 again.

    I am still quite sure that we will win 27+ games over the remainder which will be more then sufficient for that coveted 6th seeding and give us an easy 1st round.

    IF the good-magic hits this team then we might even end up in the 2nd seat, but that needs a fairy or two.
    No matter what happens, come playoffs we will see where we are.

    I do think that Ron will have 25+ games total, on his resume by then.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    But to the best of my knowledge Shaq & Kobe never became physical. Shaq never told Kobe to get out of his locker room & never told Kobe to take another plane home.

    That all happened here & that's just this year.

    Also to the best of my knowledge the entire Shaq/Kobe thing didn't start till after they won their first title (against us unfortunately).

    Look, J.O. has matured a ton as a person since he first got here. But there is only so much I think the man can take.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    You guys say what you want, but I loved that article. Yes Artest is worth waiting for and while it is certainly in the Pacers best interests to say that Ronnie is and will be a changed man, I guess I am willing to wait and find out.

    Peck, 61 wins sounds awfully good to me right now. I wonder what J.O would say to 61 wins right now. J.O. can you put up with Ronnie if it makes the team better. Because you know we aren't going to get much for him. (Before someone goes ballistic, I am specially responding to Peck, who said that flagrants and going into the stands won't be a problem but the biggest problem is that J.O and Ron don't get along)

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But to the best of my knowledge Shaq & Kobe never became physical. Shaq never told Kobe to get out of his locker room & never told Kobe to take another plane home.
    That all happened here & that's just this year.

    Also to the best of my knowledge the entire Shaq/Kobe thing didn't start till after they won their first title (against us unfortunately).

    Look, J.O. has matured a ton as a person since he first got here. But there is only so much I think the man can take.

    I've not heard that story.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    You guys say what you want, but I loved that article. Yes Artest is worth waiting for and while it is certainly in the Pacers best interests to say that Ronnie is and will be a changed man, I guess I am willing to wait and find out.

    Peck, 61 wins sounds awfully good to me right now. I wonder what J.O would say to 61 wins right now. J.O. can you put up with Ronnie if it makes the team better. Because you know we aren't going to get much for him. (Before someone goes ballistic, I am specially responding to Peck, who said that flagrants and going into the stands won't be a problem but the biggest problem is that J.O and Ron don't get along)
    You know, there is something I've been wanting to ask you for a long time & I just don't do it cause I can't think of anyway to ask it without sounding like an @ss. Ok, for kegboy's benefit I always sound like an @ss but that is another point.

    So I'm just going to go ahead & ask it & hope that you understand that I don't mean anything by it.

    Which did you like more, last seasons 61 win E.C. finals team or the 99/00 56 win W.C. finals team?

    Cause everytime I hear you wax nastalgic it is always over last years team & whenever I do it always goes back to that team.

    I have a feeling you liked last season better.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    You know, there is something I've been wanting to ask you for a long time & I just don't do it cause I can't think of anyway to ask it without sounding like an @ss. Ok, for kegboy's benefit I always sound like an @ss but that is another point.

    So I'm just going to go ahead & ask it & hope that you understand that I don't mean anything by it.

    Which did you like more, last seasons 61 win E.C. finals team or the 99/00 56 win W.C. finals team?

    Cause everytime I hear you wax nastalgic it is always over last years team & whenever I do it always goes back to that team.

    I have a feeling you liked last season better.
    Never thought about that before. Are you asking me which team I enjoyed more, or which season I enjoyed more. Sorry, I'm not trying to make it difficult.

    I liked last seasons team more. But I gues I enjoyed the 2000 season more, because finally beating the Knicks and getting to the NBA Finals was the best feeling I've had as a Pacer fan.

    The 2000 team was like a machine, efficient and workmanlike. Last years team was not as smooth or efficient, but I think more fun to watch.

    And this season, before 11/19, I was as convinced as I ever could be that this was the best Pacers team I had seen, and that was with some injuries.

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    You guys say what you want, but I loved that article. Yes Artest is worth waiting for and while it is certainly in the Pacers best interests to say that Ronnie is and will be a changed man, I guess I am willing to wait and find out.
    I was waiting for someone to say that. I really did like the article, too, it was nice to hear and gave hope. You can't miss 73 games and not be changed.

    Bender needs to go. Somehow. And I still don't understand why the hell we don't play Croshere at all. The man is pretty solit.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Never thought about that before. Are you asking me which team I enjoyed more, or which season I enjoyed more. Sorry, I'm not trying to make it difficult.

    I liked last seasons team more. But I gues I enjoyed the 2000 season more, because finally beating the Knicks and getting to the NBA Finals was the best feeling I've had as a Pacer fan.

    The 2000 team was like a machine, efficient and workmanlike. Last years team was not as smooth or efficient, but I think more fun to watch.

    And this season, before 11/19, I was as convinced as I ever could be that this was the best Pacers team I had seen, and that was with some injuries.
    Again, further proof of the differances of what we like.

    I like skill which you just described to a T with the 00 team. Machine, efficient & workmanlike.

    While you like athleticism, hence last seasons team.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Lets see...

    Can't trade Ron, except for chump change and DW/LB won't do that.
    Can't trade Bender, he has no value.
    Can't trade Cro, nobody wants his contract.
    Won't trade Reggie.
    Can't trade JO, he's the franchise.
    Can't trade Tinsley, obviously. :-)

    Probably shouldn't trade Jax.
    Probably shouldn't trade Harrison.

    Foster has trade value, but actually makes about what he's worth and will be a good backup 4/5 once Harrison takes over the starting job.

    Noboby wants Johnson, Gill, Edwards.

    So, what can we get for the Jones boys and Pollard (or Foster)?

    As much as I'd love to trade FJ, JJ, and Jeff for Redd (and filler), I just don't think that's going to happen. Or Ron and Austin for Paul Pierce for that matter.

  20. #20
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    aren't there a few malcontents out there earning 13 - 14 mil in their last year of contract? something that would render the team that has that person without anything at the end of the season, something that would fill our void at SG/SF and come of the books at the end of the season?
    maybe, just maybe we can give them a near starting quality PF and a great prospect in return?





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    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    LAL have a glut of SF's would they like AC???
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Hey I do now want Walker on our team. But if we can rent him for a year at the price of Cro finding a home that will give him pt and dumping Bender than I would be all for it. If they can find a way to throw in AJ I would be thrilled. You never know the Hawks just might be willing to make that trade.

  23. #23
    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    I've not heard that story.
    Me neither. When did this come out? Do you have a link to the story anywhere peck?

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    hmmm How about Pollard, Bender and Freddie for Lorenzen Wright and Bonzi Wells?

    I dont really want Bonzi either but he is a capable scorer.

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    Default Re: And thus, it begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by btownpacer
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    I doubt it's in print anywhere, but I'll vouch for its authenticity. So now you have two unverifiable, anonymous sources claiming it. You could work for CBS.

    But wait....before I report it, what was the story?

    Thank you in advance
    Craig Sagar
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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