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Thread: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    BTW, anyone else genuinely surprised at how good of a back up Butler has been? His FG% is great.
    I always liked Butler. He's stuck around the league for a reason. But given the fact he's bounced around so much, I thought my perception must have been off.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I like all of our starters but to direct the angst of the turnover problem...which is a real one on this team....at Lance Stephenson is misdirected. The problem is more than that and it may have to do with our offense and how it works.
    Lance isn't the cause of the turnover problem. That much is obvious. The cause of this problem is the increased motion that our offense has. Simply put, the sets are more complex and they involve more options and sometimes the players read their teammate's movement wrong.

    Lance's turnovers are just easier for people to remember because they tend to be flashy.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Lance isn't the cause of the turnover problem. That much is obvious. The cause of this problem is the increased motion that our offense has. Simply put, the sets are more complex and they involve more options and sometimes the players read their teammate's movement wrong.

    Lance's turnovers are just easier for people to remember because they tend to be flashy.
    Or they remember because he has the second highest TO% on the team of those who get regular minutes, and it is up by 4% from last year which combined with his usage being up by 3.7% is a large increase in TOs. He is currently 16 TOs shy of his season total from last year.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Or they remember because he has the second highest TO% on the team of those who get regular minutes, and it is up by 4% from last year which combined with his usage being up by 3.7% is a large increase in TOs. He is currently 16 TOs shy of his season total from last year.
    TOs come hand in hand with assists for perimeter players who act as PnR handlers. It's true that Lance has the second highest TO% on the team but he also has the second best Assist to Turnover ratio of our team after George Hill (who is great at taking care of the ball).

    Lance and Hill really compliment each other in this regard. Lance will make the tough pass that carries the risk of being stolen but that same pass can also open up the defense. Hill will make the solid pass that may not open up the defense but will carry minimal risk of being stolen. If Hill was paired with another player that wouldn't make the risky pass then our offense would become too predictable and thus become stagnant. If Lance was paired with another player that would make the risky pass then our offense would be extremely turnover prone. It's great that we have both of them and can achieve the right balance between risky and safe passing.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    The thing about our Magic (Senator, I knew Magic Johnson, he was a friend of mine, sir, you are no Magic Johnson) is his BB IQ still isn't high enough to put the ball in his hands full time. He is getting better, but there are moments where his 1 on 3 fast breaks smack of grade school basketball. High risk, high reward. We need the easy baskets his style provides (which the Pacers as an organization have never really had) but not at the expense of lots of lost possessions.

    And this becomes even more pronounced on the road and in the playoffs. Everyone plays with a higher intensity and turns the screwer tighter on the defensive end. Sometimes you just want to take care of the ball, run the offense and just get a shot (think Jax), not an over the head bullet from 25 feet to Ian (50-50 he catches it) under the basket for an O-My moment.

    At this point, I (IMHO) do not believe we can afford to put our fate exclusively in his hands. Just keeping tuning to find the right mix, right %, the right recognition. Or by analogy, my brother was lucky to get 3 really quick kids who could handle on the the same 8th grade team. They loved to run. But until he got them to understand the concept, "if it ain't there, pull it out and run the offense" they were a high octane mess.

    The real Magic knew that instinctively. Not there? Back it out, wait for Kareem, dump it in and watch the sky hook go in. Include everyone in your show. Win titles not ESPN air time (or triple double records). Plus Magic Johnson had people to run with him and more often than not, the trailer scored. Lance, not as much.

    Hopefully, Lance will become so good we will have have to upgrade from Born Ready to Magic to The Second Coming.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    The thing about our Magic (Senator, I knew Magic Johnson, he was a friend of mine, sir, you are no Magic Johnson) is his BB IQ still isn't high enough to put the ball in his hands full time. He is getting better, but there are moments where his 1 on 3 fast breaks smack of grade school basketball. High risk, high reward. We need the easy baskets his style provides (which the Pacers as an organization have never really had) but not at the expense of lots of lost possessions.

    And this becomes even more pronounced on the road and in the playoffs. Everyone plays with a higher intensity and turns the screwer tighter on the defensive end. Sometimes you just want to take care of the ball, run the offense and just get a shot (think Jax), not an over the head bullet from 25 feet to Ian (50-50 he catches it) under the basket for an O-My moment.

    At this point, I (IMHO) do not believe we can afford to put our fate exclusively in his hands. Just keeping tuning to find the right mix, right %, the right recognition. Or by analogy, my brother was lucky to get 3 really quick kids who could handle on the the same 8th grade team. They loved to run. But until he got them to understand the concept, "if it ain't there, pull it out and run the offense" they were a high octane mess.

    The real Magic knew that instinctively. Not there? Back it out, wait for Kareem, dump it in and watch the sky hook go in. Include everyone in your show. Win titles not ESPN air time (or triple double records). Plus Magic Johnson had people to run with him and more often than not, the trailer scored. Lance, not as much.

    Hopefully, Lance will become so good we will have have to upgrade from Born Ready to Magic to The Second Coming.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    TOs come hand in hand with assists for perimeter players who act as PnR handlers. It's true that Lance has the second highest TO% on the team but he also has the second best Assist to Turnover ratio of our team after George Hill (who is great at taking care of the ball).

    Lance and Hill really compliment each other in this regard. Lance will make the tough pass that carries the risk of being stolen but that same pass can also open up the defense. Hill will make the solid pass that may not open up the defense but will carry minimal risk of being stolen. If Hill was paired with another player that wouldn't make the risky pass then our offense would become too predictable and thus become stagnant. If Lance was paired with another player that would make the risky pass then our offense would be extremely turnover prone. It's great that we have both of them and can achieve the right balance between risky and safe passing.
    Excellent post, but let me clarify something further. When Lance is not on the floor, teams can pressure the perimeter and make it harder to get open looks. They can take more risk because they are far less likely to get burned. Hill protects the ball well and isn't so weak physically (like Augustin) that teams just take the ball away...but Hill is mediocre at ball movement. His game indeed can lead to a stagnant offense unless others are creating. He's not going to excel at driving and dishing because it's not his game. With that said, he is still a very, very good player and as you say fits well in the lineup with Stephenson.

    So, what I'm saying is that Lance's ability to create and assist opens the floor up for other players to get open looks...even if Lance isn't getting the assist.

    With Miami it can get tough. Augustin wasn't big enough to handle Chalmers and Cole. Hill is barely able to handle it and there pressure has gotten the best of him on occasion. Lance can hold the ball away from those clowns, see over them to pass and can drive and power through them for an And-One. They physical pressure isn't going to shut down Lance and if anything it will motivate him.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Excellent post, but let me clarify something further. When Lance is not on the floor, teams can pressure the perimeter and make it harder to get open looks. They can take more risk because they are far less likely to get burned. Hill protects the ball well and isn't so weak physically (like Augustin) that teams just take the ball away...but Hill is mediocre at ball movement. His game indeed can lead to a stagnant offense unless others are creating. He's not going to excel at driving and dishing because it's not his game. With that said, he is still a very, very good player and as you say fits well in the lineup with Stephenson.

    So, what I'm saying is that Lance's ability to create and assist opens the floor up for other players to get open looks...even if Lance isn't getting the assist.

    With Miami it can get tough. Augustin wasn't big enough to handle Chalmers and Cole. Hill is barely able to handle it and there pressure has gotten the best of him on occasion. Lance can hold the ball away from those clowns, see over them to pass and can drive and power through them for an And-One. They physical pressure isn't going to shut down Lance and if anything it will motivate him.
    I don't know if driving and dishing is Hill's game or not. We never ask it from him and thus I don't know if he can do it or not. I'm pretty sure that our players can do more things than they are asked to (heck, Roy hit a corner 3 yesterday) but there's no reason to attempt it most of the time.

    I'd also say that Hill is very beneficial to our ball movement. Take a look at this -> http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingP...&sortOrder=DES

    Hill averages 55.6 passes per game which is a team high for the Pacers even though his USG% is 9th for the team (only Ian has a lower USG% out of the players that receive regular minutes). In other words, he is actively moving the ball every game.

    Lance obviously helps us a lot but so does Hill. As I said, it's a nice balance between those two.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Hill averages 55.6 passes per game which is a team high for the Pacers even though his USG% is 9th for the team (only Ian has a lower USG% out of the players that receive regular minutes). In other words, he is actively moving the ball every game.
    The reason he has so many passes is that he almost always touches the ball. He either brings it up or a player hands it to him to "initiate". There are times where Lance and Paul initiate and it doesn't touch Hill, but those are the exceptions. So, the fact Hill passes a lot often doesn't mean much in terms of quality of pass. He often pounds the ball a few times and drops it off to DWest or Paul to create. That doesn't amount to much and his assist totals reflect it.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I watched the Wizards feed, and by the end of the night the announcers had stopped being reluctant about admitting it; they basically treated it as a clinic in good defense. Very complimentary.
    Living in DC, I catch a lot of Wiz games when the Pacers aren't playing at the same time. Steve Buckhantz and Phil Chenier are two of the best in the business. Very enjoyable to watch.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The reason he has so many passes is that he almost always touches the ball. He either brings it up or a player hands it to him to "initiate". There are times where Lance and Paul initiate and it doesn't touch Hill, but those are the exceptions. So, the fact Hill passes a lot often doesn't mean much in terms of quality of pass. He often pounds the ball a few times and drops it off to DWest or Paul to create. That doesn't amount to much and his assist totals reflect it.
    But my argument was never about the quality of the pass. You said that Hill is mediocre at moving the ball and I disagreed. I used this statistic in order to prove that Hill does indeed move the ball around.

    And I will further defend my point using the following:

    http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingT...&sortOrder=DES

    Total Touches per Game:

    George Hill: 69.1 per game

    Paul George: 71.3 per game

    PG touches it more but he makes less passes. And that's perfectly normal since PG is looking to score whereas Hill looks to get everyone else involved.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    But my argument was never about the quality of the pass. You said that Hill is mediocre at moving the ball and I disagreed. I used this statistic in order to prove that Hill does indeed move the ball around.

    And I will further defend my point using the following:

    http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingT...&sortOrder=DES

    Total Touches per Game:

    George Hill: 69.1 per game

    Paul George: 71.3 per game

    PG touches it more but he makes less passes. And that's perfectly normal since PG is looking to score whereas Hill looks to get everyone else involved.
    Ok. Hill is just fine dumping the ball off to David West. In fact, that is a great deal of what he does for "ball movement" which is one reason he ranks nowhere on the charts for assists in the NBA. Even Josh McRoberts has more assists and that's playing less minutes. I guess I don't really get the point of talking about ball movement when all he does is dump it off and start running around to play SG.

    Speaking of SG's, Paul is really our SG on offense and he has more assists than our PG. Lance is closer to doubling the assists. Not ripping on Hill but this talk about him moving the ball doesn't really add up.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Ok. Hill is just fine dumping the ball off to David West. In fact, that is a great deal of what he does for "ball movement" which is one reason he ranks nowhere on the charts for assists in the NBA. Even Josh McRoberts has more assists and that's playing less minutes. I guess I don't really get the point of talking about ball movement when all he does is dump it off and start running around to play SG.

    Speaking of SG's, Paul is really our SG on offense and he has more assists than our PG. Lance is closer to doubling the assists. Not ripping on Hill but this talk about him moving the ball doesn't really add up.
    I think using assists a judgment for whether someone moves the ball well is..a poor use of the statistic. In fact, high assist players can sometimes not move the ball well at all. (Brandon Jennings..) It totally ignores a player that understands the hockey assist..or the assist to the hockey assist.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think using assists a judgment for whether someone moves the ball well is..a poor use of the statistic. In fact, high assist players can sometimes not move the ball well at all. (Brandon Jennings..) It totally ignores a player that understands the hockey assist..or the assist to the hockey assist.
    I like George, but to say he understands the hockey assists ignores the fact he so often just dumps the ball off to go play SG. I actually don't have a huge problem with him not playing the PG position traditionally but someone needs to start the ball movement. I suppose that can be the PF or SF or SG...or anyone. But this is the place where the team needs to work. It is hard to complain about the record and I'm not doing that. Very pleased with the entire team. But our issue is turnovers and our ability to move the ball successfully is highly related to it.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    TOs come hand in hand with assists for perimeter players who act as PnR handlers. It's true that Lance has the second highest TO% on the team but he also has the second best Assist to Turnover ratio of our team after George Hill (who is great at taking care of the ball).
    True, even so his TO% is high for guards no matter how you slice it. While Paul has gotten better at taking care of the ball as he has been given more of the reigns, Lance has become more careless. Really the increase in TOs can be traced to him and Scola. Everyone else seems to be about the same or slightly better from last year, with a big improvement from Paul. Now I can't really explain why Scola's TO% jumped from 11% to 17%, but I do know why Lance's has jumped, and it isn't because of more movement in the offense. It is because as he likes to show off, and as he is given more leeway he tries to show off more. This leads to him being in situations with no plan for escape, and bad passes. Lance doesn't always go into the situation knowing where he will be able to pass the ball, he often just makes it up as he goes along hoping that there will be a pass. It can lead to amazing passes, but it also leads to unnecessary TOs.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Ok. Hill is just fine dumping the ball off to David West. In fact, that is a great deal of what he does for "ball movement" which is one reason he ranks nowhere on the charts for assists in the NBA. Even Josh McRoberts has more assists and that's playing less minutes. I guess I don't really get the point of talking about ball movement when all he does is dump it off and start running around to play SG.

    Speaking of SG's, Paul is really our SG on offense and he has more assists than our PG. Lance is closer to doubling the assists. Not ripping on Hill but this talk about him moving the ball doesn't really add up.
    Josh McRoberts has more assists than Hill because the Bobcats run their offense through him. We don't run our offense through Hill and that's why he doesn't have a high assist number.

    Hill is asked to give the ball to our wings or dump it in the post and then spot up. That's his function in our offense. That's also exactly what CJ Watson is doing when he is in the game. That's what our system requires our PGs to do. Dump the ball in the post or to our wings and spot up.

    I feel that you mistake a player's individual ability with out offensive scheme and I don't think that this is particularly fair.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    True, even so his TO% is high for guards no matter how you slice it. While Paul has gotten better at taking care of the ball as he has been given more of the reigns, Lance has become more careless. Really the increase in TOs can be traced to him and Scola. Everyone else seems to be about the same or slightly better from last year, with a big improvement from Paul. Now I can't really explain why Scola's TO% jumped from 11% to 17%, but I do know why Lance's has jumped, and it isn't because of more movement in the offense. It is because as he likes to show off, and as he is given more leeway he tries to show off more. This leads to him being in situations with no plan for escape, and bad passes. Lance doesn't always go into the situation knowing where he will be able to pass the ball, he often just makes it up as he goes along hoping that there will be a pass. It can lead to amazing passes, but it also leads to unnecessary TOs.
    I wouldn't say that Lance's TO% is high for guards. There are several other guards with a higher TO% than him.

    Personally, I believe that it's our offense. We have incorporated a lot more PnRs in our offense this season and that's something that we really didn't do a lot in our last seasons. PnR plays can lead to higher quality shots but they can also lead to more turnovers. I believe that this explains why both our eFG% and TO% have increased.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I wouldn't say that Lance's TO% is high for guards. There are several other guards with a higher TO% than him.

    Personally, I believe that it's our offense. We have incorporated a lot more PnRs in our offense this season and that's something that we really didn't do a lot in our last seasons. PnR plays can lead to higher quality shots but they can also lead to more turnovers. I believe that this explains why both our eFG% and TO% have increased.
    I believe with these few days off and with some practice time, that our offensive flow will improve. The defense is very good now, so practice on fine tuning the offense. We will see.
    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Josh McRoberts has more assists than Hill because the Bobcats run their offense through him. We don't run our offense through Hill and that's why he doesn't have a high assist number.

    Hill is asked to give the ball to our wings or dump it in the post and then spot up. That's his function in our offense. That's also exactly what CJ Watson is doing when he is in the game. That's what our system requires our PGs to do. Dump the ball in the post or to our wings and spot up.

    I feel that you mistake a player's individual ability with out offensive scheme and I don't think that this is particularly fair.
    I agreed until your last sentence. As I've said, I really like George Hill. But if he actually had the ability to play traditional point, he'd be doing it. This offensive scheme is built around the players as it should be. That's exactly where Frank Vogel and JOb are different. JOb forced square pegs into round holes. Frank looks at the pegs and is more likely to change the board some so they fit properly. He's done that with Hill. He's doing it with Lance, giving him some chances to initiate. But I fully disagree that George Hill has the ability to create much by initiating ball movement. It's just not his game. It is Lance Stephenson's game though.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    I would say Lance is already more of our PG than Hill is

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I wouldn't say that Lance's TO% is high for guards. There are several other guards with a higher TO% than him.
    There are other guards with a higher TO%, but not very many good ones.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There are other guards with a higher TO%, but not very many good ones.
    Wonder why people are talking about 9M/yr for Lance. They must not know anything...

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I agreed until your last sentence. As I've said, I really like George Hill. But if he actually had the ability to play traditional point, he'd be doing it. This offensive scheme is built around the players as it should be. That's exactly where Frank Vogel and JOb are different. JOb forced square pegs into round holes. Frank looks at the pegs and is more likely to change the board some so they fit properly. He's done that with Hill. He's doing it with Lance, giving him some chances to initiate. But I fully disagree that George Hill has the ability to create much by initiating ball movement. It's just not his game. It is Lance Stephenson's game though.
    I also think that Vogel is doing an amazing job at building our scheme around the players.

    That's exactly why Lance is asked to create and why Hill is asked to play off the ball and shoot 3s.

    Lance is our best creator and Hill is probably our best 3 point shooter (he has the highest 3p% after Butler and Hibbert). That's why Hill plays off the ball. The issue is not that Hill cannot create. The issue simply is that Lance is a better creator than Hill and that Hill is better suited as a shooter anyway.

    It has to do with taking advantage of each player's strength.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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  39. #74
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There are other guards with a higher TO%, but not very many good ones.
    Let's take a look at it then.

    Here's a list about SGs -> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...tio/order/true

    Here's a list about PGs -> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...tio/order/true

    Here's a list about SFs -> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...tio/order/true

    Lance has a 13.5 TO ratio according to Hollinger's stats.

    Jeremy Lin has a 15.5 ratio and he's significantly higher than Lance. Norris Cole has a 14.3 ratio and Mario Chalmers has a 14.1 ratio so we can easily say that Lance turns it over less than either of Miami's PGs.

    Ricky Rubio has a 13.4 TO ratio and he is only 0.1 lower than Lance. Derrick Rose and Eric Bledsoe have a 13.3 ratio. Deron Williams is at 13.0 and even Stephen Curry himself is at 12.9.

    In the SG list, we can see that rookies like Victor Oladipo, Nick Calathes and Giannis Antetokounmpo are significantly higher than Lance (15.8, 17.6 and 15.4 respectively). Same goes for veterans like Chauncey Billups and Ben Gordon even though they don't play a lot. Tony Allen has a 13.6 ratio as well. James Harden is at 13.0 and only slightly lower than Lance.

    In the SF list, we can see that two prominent passing SFs are very close to Lance. I'm talking about Andre Iguodala and Nicolas Batum. Both of them are 13.2 and only slightly lower than Lance.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Wizards Post-Game Thread - 1/10

    The TO% is beside the point. Lance Stephenson is an all-star caliber guard. He may be the best player on this team if he keeps this pace. He's already the 3rd best on the best team in the NBA.

    Edit: Seriously, if I had to rank players only Paul and Roy are above him. DWest is expendable with Scola and CJ Watson could do a nice impression of Hill.

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