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Thread: Best NBA defense of all time!

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    Default Best NBA defense of all time!

    " ...enjoy this.

    The Pacers are giving you the chance to watch defense played more effectively than ever before."


    It's Bleacher Report...but still

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-the-best-ever

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Bleacher report was bought several months ago by TNT, it is quality site now.

    Warriors are third, Thunder is 4th. That probably surprises some.

    (I've been saying the Warriors play good defense starting last season)

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    I feel like the post-Sheed-trade 2004 Pistons were the best I've ever seen. They were holding some teams under 70. Though I never have seen their Def rating to account for pace.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Same answer as any year. Win the championship and they're in the discussion.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Same answer as any year. Win the championship and they're in the discussion.
    You may be right, but can you explain this thought process? I'm not sure I see the correlation with having the best defense and a championship. I'd agree that, in general, if you have a great defense, you have a shoot at the title. But if your offense is also the worst of all time, then you're probably not going to win the championship. To me the offense should be largely irrelevant if you're strictly taking about defensive capability. For example, if the Pistons had lost the championship in 7 games, are they out of the discussion? To me, that seems silly and conveniently arbitrary.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bricklayer View Post
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    You may be right, but can you explain this thought process? I'm not sure I see the correlation with having the best defense and a championship. I'd agree that, in general, if you have a great defense, you have a shoot at the title. But if your offense is also the worst of all time, then you're probably not going to win the championship. To me the offense should be largely irrelevant if you're strictly taking about defensive capability. For example, if the Pistons had lost the championship in 7 games, are they out of the discussion? To me, that seems silly and conveniently arbitrary.
    Greatness is defined through championships. There have already been historically great defenses that have gone through that gauntlet. If you want a seat at the table, that's the price of admission.

    And yes, losing an elimination games in the finals is that important. Great teams aim the entire season to reach their peak in May and June. How you hold up in the finals says everything about your resolve.

    I think the pacers have more than shown that they have the capability to be one of the best defenses ever. Need seal the deal when it really matters, though.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Warrior's can score too. I've thought all year that they have a shot IF they can stay healthy.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bricklayer View Post
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    You may be right, but can you explain this thought process? I'm not sure I see the correlation with having the best defense and a championship. I'd agree that, in general, if you have a great defense, you have a shoot at the title. But if your offense is also the worst of all time, then you're probably not going to win the championship. To me the offense should be largely irrelevant if you're strictly taking about defensive capability. For example, if the Pistons had lost the championship in 7 games, are they out of the discussion? To me, that seems silly and conveniently arbitrary.
    Doesn't even guarantee a shot. Chicago has a great defense, not all time great, and they could be out of the playoffs very easily. They're 3rd right now in opponet FG% and 2nd in points scored. The bobkitties have the 5th best FG% and 3rd in points allowed. So being arguably a top 5 defensive team barely gets you into the top half of the Leastern Conference.
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Greatness is defined through championships.
    So a NBA champ that gives up 100pts per game, and allows their opponents to shoot, say 47% is better defensively than a team who loses in the first round who gives up 90pts on 40% shooting?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So a NBA champ that gives up 100pts per game, and allows their opponents to shoot, say 47% is better defensively than a team who loses in the first round who gives up 90pts on 40% shooting?
    Nope. That just means there wasn't a team good enough defensively in that given season to rank among the best of all time. It's not like these teams come along every year.

    You can be the best defensive team in the league and not win a championship. Just can't be one of the best of all time. If you're that good on defense, you won't get eliminated.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    You can be the best defensive team in the league and not win a championship. Just can't be one of the best of all time. If you're that good on defense, you won't get eliminated.
    So the defining factor of ranking defenses, isn't their actual defensive numbers, but rather if they win a ring. It over-simplifies sports.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the defining factor of ranking defenses, isn't their actual defensive numbers, but rather if they win a ring. It over-simplifies sports.
    Again, untrue.

    The ring is the most important stat. It validates everything else accomplished, because it was all done with that goal in mind.

    We can discuss all day what criteria to use to decide who #1 is, but the bare minimum requirement to be involved in the discussion is the most important thing any team can accomplish during any given season. The numbers mean absolutely nothing without that. They are not as important.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Throughout the relevant part of NBA history, these are the only teams to produce defensive ratings of 97 or lower:

    1. 2003-04 San Antonio Spurs, 94.1
    2. 1998-99 San Antonio Spurs, 95.0
    3. 2003-04 Detroit Pistons, 95.4
    4. 2013-14 Indiana Pacers, 95.5
    5. 1976-77 Denver Nuggets, 96.1
    6. 1977-78 Phoenix Suns, 97.0
    The bolded are the only teams that even made the finals, let alone win a ring.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-09-2014 at 04:50 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The bolded are the only teams that even made the finals, let alone win a ring. So that SA team that gave up less points than Det, who won the next year? Yep, clearly they can't even be in the discussion.
    Given how they melted down against the lakers in the playoffs? Of course not. That's a ridiculous question. Their defense melted down in the most critical part of their season. Even without the Fisher shot they probably lose game 7 at home anyway.

    FYI, the pistons numbers that season after the Rasheed trade completely outclassed the spurs...but that's neither here nor there.

    I'll say it again, losing out on your most important goal simply invalidates any claim to greatness. It just shows you could not raise your level when everything you worked for was on the line.

    Teams aim to be great in May and June, not November and December. The truly great teams dominate the entire year and prove it by coming away with the Larry O'Brien trophy.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 04:55 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Again, untrue.
    No, it is true. You're telling me and everyone else that the ONLY thing that you need to win a ring is a good enough defense. If you have the best defensive team ever, you're guarantee'd a ring regardless of how good or how bad you are offensively.

    You saying "If you're that good on defense, you won't get eliminated." says exactly that.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, it is true. You're telling me and everyone else that the ONLY thing that you need to win a ring is a good enough defense. If you have the best defensive team ever, you're guarantee'd a ring regardless of how good or how bad you are offensively.

    You saying "If you're that good on defense, you won't get eliminated." says exactly that.
    Absolutely. Doesn't make every champion a great defensive team, but it does make every great defensive team a champion.

    If Indiana's defense is THAT good that it deserves to be up there with the very best ever, they'll win the whole thing. It's that simple. What they're doing now is very good but they need to do it in May and June or it won't hold up historically.

    When the NBA starts handing out championship trophies for being the best team in December and January, I'll change my tune. Fair enough?
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 04:59 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Same answer as any year. Win the championship and they're in the discussion.
    Kstat this is idiotic logic, and I know you are smarter than this. Great teams win championships not great defenses alone. There are three key aspects to the sport of basketball: offense, defense, and rebounding. Being great at one does not mean you are great or even good at the others, and you have to be able to do all of them to win a championship. This is the kind of logic that puts average QBs on the same pedestal as Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas, while leaving out Dan Marino. One can be great at something without winning a championship.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Kstat this is idiotic logic, and I know you are smarter than this. Great teams win championships not great defenses alone. There are three key aspects to the sport of basketball: offense, defense, and rebounding. Being great at one does not mean you are great or even good at the others, and you have to be able to do all of them to win a championship. This is the kind of logic that puts average QBs on the same pedestal as Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas, while leaving out Dan Marino. One can be great at something without winning a championship.
    No, idiotic logic is comparing basketball to football where Dan Marino does not play defense....

    Btw, any of the NFL teams considers the greatest defense of all time won superbowls. Championships are kind of important in any sport...

    If your defense is that good, it'll carry you through offensive droughts.

    Btw, rebounding is not a separate 1/3 of the game. It's part of both sides of the floor. A great defensive team can't be a crappy rebounding one. That's hilarious. This isn't football. Rebounding is not akin to special teams.

    You can continue beating up your strawman about any average champion being better than every non champion ever, but I never made that argument.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 05:24 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    No, idiotic logic is comparing basketball to football where Dan Marino does not play defense....

    Btw, any of the NFL teams considers the greatest defense of all time won superbowls. Championships are kind of important in any sport...
    Then I must have been wrong about your ability to be logical.

    Championships are the goal. They do not measure the greatness of a single aspect of a team. They only measure the team as a whole.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Then I must have been wrong about your ability to be logical.

    Championships are the goal. They do not measure the greatness of a single aspect of a team. They only measure the team as a whole.
    If you lean on your defense to win your games, then you have put that aspect of the game ahead of the others.

    Again, other teams have own championships by focusing on defense. It isn't that hard to understand.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    If you lean on your defense to win your games, then you have put that aspect of the game ahead of the others.

    Again, other teams have own championships by focusing on defense. It isn't that hard to understand.
    It isn't hard to understand that some teams win championships based on having a great defense first. That has no bearing on how great their defense actually is though. It doesn't matter how good your defense is, you still have to score points. If you can't you aren't going to win a championship. It takes a well rounded team to win a championship, not a one dimensional team.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    It absolutely has a bearing.

    If your defense is that good,you won't lose a must-win game. If your offense scores 67, you scratch and claw your way to allow 66. And so on, and so on.

    Well rounded or not, if you have a truly great defense, you find a way to win. No excuses. I've personally watched teams that had absolutely nothing to give offensively on any given night dig down to incredible levels and win games they had no earthly business winning. Any team wanting to call itself the best ever should be able to duplicate that.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 05:59 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    I have a feeling Kstat's entire argument wouldn't be happening if his favorite team hadn't won a title with a defense that is in the conversation as one of the all-time greats.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I have a feeling Kstat's entire argument wouldn't be happening if his favorite team hadn't won a title with a defense that is in the conversation as one of the all-time greats.
    Oh, it would be happening, but my favorite team wouldn't be in the discussion, nor would I be taking such an interest.

    Nevertheless, my standards are the same. It would be no different from a discussion on great offensive teams, and I can assure you the pistons would be nowhere on that list. (For what it's worth, the 1985 lakers have my vote).

    For what it's worth, I enjoy watching this team defend, and they have what it takes but nobody will know for sure until we see what they do in the playoffs.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 06:35 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    The "best" anything doesnt always win...hence why they play the games...there are rarely such absolutes in life, let alone sports

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