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Thread: Best NBA defense of all time!

  1. #26

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    So let's say you assemble an NBA starting five with C Ben Wallace, PF Dennis Rodman, SF Bruce Bowen, SG Doug Christie, PG Fat Lever (I'm old).

    Your opponent may score 60 and you may have an incredible defense, but are you going to defeat any team with lesser (but decent) defenders at every single position but that can score?

    Maybe C Moses Malone, PF Dan Issel, SF Bob McAdoo, SG Reggie Miller, PG Pete Maravich?

    I know which team I would take. One of them would not need to play much defense to stop the other.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    So let's say you assemble an NBA starting five with C Ben Wallace, PF Dennis Rodman, SF Bruce Bowen, SG Doug Christie, PG Fat Lever (I'm old).

    Your opponent may score 60 and you may have an incredible defense, but are you going to defeat any team with lesser (but decent) defenders at every single position but that can score?

    Maybe C Moses Malone, PF Dan Issel, SF Bob McAdoo, SG Reggie Miller, PG Pete Maravich?

    I know which team I would take. One of them would not need to play much defense to stop the other.
    I totally understand and agree with your point, though im not sure how how Bob McAdoo would be as a SF....

    The 72 win Bulls team would beat every one of the greatest all-time defensive teams that did or did not win titles....because they were a pretty good defensive team in their own right

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    So let's say you assemble an NBA starting five with C Ben Wallace, PF Dennis Rodman, SF Bruce Bowen, SG Doug Christie, PG Fat Lever (I'm old).

    Your opponent may score 60 and you may have an incredible defense, but are you going to defeat any team with lesser (but decent) defenders at every single position but that can score?

    Maybe C Moses Malone, PF Dan Issel, SF Bob McAdoo, SG Reggie Miller, PG Pete Maravich?

    I know which team I would take. One of them would not need to play much defense to stop the other.
    I'd take the defensive team, but that's just my preference.

    That team would score a lot more than you'd think off of turnovers and offensive rebounds. Ben and Rodman would murder Issel and Malone on the offensive glass.

    Make Larry Brown the coach and I'd be extremely confident.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    It's a pretty awful argument, really, one of the worst I've read recently. The championship is typically won by the strongest team overall; the team with the most strengths and the least weaknesses. You can have elite-level defense, yet be weak elsewhere, and still be a lousy team. The Bucks teams under Scott Skiles were a perfect example of this.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The bolded are the only teams that even made the finals, let alone win a ring.
    I've never seen that stat broken down from when the Pistons got Sheed that year. I do contend that they were the greatest defense of all time, but I'd love to see the breakdown pre-Sheed and post-Sheed for that season. They were really good pre-Sheed, but historically good post-Sheed.
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Bleacher report was bought several months ago by TNT, it is quality site now.

    Warriors are third, Thunder is 4th. That probably surprises some.

    (I've been saying the Warriors play good defense starting last season)
    Disagreed on the surprise part. The Warriors have a similar defensive starting unit to the Pacers. Iggy = PG; Bogut = Roy; Klay = Lance, with not good-competent defenders rounding out. The Thunder have been good for awhile now and start two defensive specialists (if you can call Perkins one..). Neither at the level of the Pacers because of the strong coaching, chemistry, above average-below average defenders, and better bench. Having a strong wing and a decent rim protector is the formula at this point. The B-cats are way more impressive for me, Miami too.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    I've never seen that stat broken down from when the Pistons got Sheed that year. I do contend that they were the greatest defense of all time, but I'd love to see the breakdown pre-Sheed and post-Sheed for that season. They were really good pre-Sheed, but historically good post-Sheed.
    pre-sheed: 86.8ppg allowed

    post-sheed: 78.9ppg allowed

    Still think the pit-bull press was the most devastating defensive scheme I have ever seen in the NBA. Shock and awe. We could have seen it in the postseason had it not been for Sheed's foot problems.

    We got it for one playoff game, at least

    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 07:28 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  8. #33

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    . Ben and Rodman would murder Issel and Malone on the offensive glass.
    and Moses Malone is probably the best offensive rebounder in our planet's history.

    and I'll have Larry Bird or Dr. J instead of McAdoo at SF, maybe Isiah instead of Maravich at PG, if you permit me to say those are lesser defenders
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    and Moses Malone is probably the best offensive rebounder in our planet's history.

    and I'll have Larry Bird or Dr. J instead of McAdoo at SF, maybe Isiah instead of Maravich at PG, if you permit me to say those are lesser defenders
    I absolutely will not. Zeke and bird were plus defenders in their primes. Bird was an all-defense guy 3 straight seasons.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 09:46 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  11. #35

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    OK,

    Tiny Archibald, Reggie, Dr. J., Issel, and Moses Malone then.

    Not a plus defender in the bunch.


    vs. Ben, Rodman, Bowen, Chrsitie, and Lever.


    Tiny and Dr' J slice you up as two amazing open court players, have three 20,000 point scorers to feed, and when things break down, Moses backs Ben down and plays volleyball until he scores.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Tiny is the last person on earth you'd want to attack that defense. He was the ultimate hog in his prime.

    That team is a total mess. Is there a 5-basketball rule we haven't discussed? moses Malone is going to bully Ben Wallace in his prime? Are we talking 25-year old Moses vs 40 year old Ben Wallace? Because that is not happening otherwise.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 10:03 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Kstat this is idiotic logic, and I know you are smarter than this. Great teams win championships not great defenses alone. There are three key aspects to the sport of basketball: offense, defense, and rebounding. Being great at one does not mean you are great or even good at the others, and you have to be able to do all of them to win a championship. This is the kind of logic that puts average QBs on the same pedestal as Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas, while leaving out Dan Marino. One can be great at something without winning a championship.
    I didn't read it that way. An all time great defense is not one defined 1/3 into the season. If they can carry their current pace, AND win the national championship playing this defensive style when it matters the most, then you have legitimate claim to an all-time best defense.

    I don't see what's so idiotic or controversial about that perspective.

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  15. #38
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    I'm partial to the Thomas/Dumars Pistons defense. A 7 point deficit against them was as hard to overcome as a 20 point lead.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    pre-sheed: 86.8ppg allowed

    post-sheed: 78.9ppg allowed

    Still think the pit-bull press was the most devastating defensive scheme I have ever seen in the NBA. Shock and awe. We could have seen it in the postseason had it not been for Sheed's foot problems.

    We got it for one playoff game, at least

    What's the pre/post trade points allowed per 100 possessions for that team?

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I didn't read it that way. An all time great defense is not one defined 1/3 into the season. If they can carry their current pace, AND win the national championship playing this defensive style when it matters the most, then you have legitimate claim to an all-time best defense.

    I don't see what's so idiotic or controversial about that perspective.
    lol national championship

  18. #41

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Tiny is the last person on earth you'd want to attack that defense. He was the ultimate hog in his prime..
    League leading 11.4 assists per game in his prime. I think he can dish it. Play him to pass though. Scored 34.0 in his prime.

    All-time great defenders can hold a great 25 ppg player to 20 ppg. A bad offensive player like Rodman putting up 9 ppg against average players might get 11 against a so-so defender. It's not going to add up. Doug Christie may harass Gervin or Reggie Miller tremendously but with little gain., and on the other end remain pretty helpless.

    I am a defense-first guy, but all-time great offense with even a bit below normal D will beat all-time great D with putrid offense. This isn't soccer where we aim for 1-0. You can only put so many Mark Eaton types out there.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-09-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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  19. #42
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    League leading 11.4 assists per game in his prime. I think he can dish it. Play him to pass though. Scored 34.0 in his prime.
    Great...and his usage rate in his prime makes Kobe Bryant blush. So you've essentially rendered the other 4 guys on the floor spectators, his 11 assists notwithstanding.

    All-time great defenders can hold a great 25 ppg player to 20 ppg. A bad offensive player like Rodman putting up 9 ppg against average players might get 11 against a so-so defender. It's not going to add up.
    That's your opinion. I've seen both Wallace and Rodman light up inept defenders. Big Ben used to torture Jason Collins back in the day.

    This isn't soccer where we aim for 1-0. You can only put so many Mark Eaton types out there.
    Mark Eaton doesn't really belong in this discussion. He's the defensive equivalent of Steve Kerr.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-09-2014 at 11:19 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    What's the pre/post trade points allowed per 100 possessions for that team?
    good question, one I don't have an answer for. Their ppg did increase a couple points over the same span. I doubt there was a big difference in pace.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  21. #44

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Big Ben used to torture Jason Collins back in the day.
    I looked at the 4 matchups with Collins in 2003-4, Ben's peak year in defensive win shares, when he led the league in that stat. He scored 12.5 ppg vs. Collins, 9.5 vs. the league. He went 3-8, 5-12, 4-8, and 6-11. I guess that's torture. 46% shooting rather than 42%. Hard to notice, though.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2004/
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    18 points on 8/10 shooting in a game 7 is pretty good, I'd say....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  23. #46

    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    18 points on 8/10 shooting in a game 7 is pretty good, I'd say....
    agreed.

    Collins played just 21 minutes, so it seems half of the damage was done vs. Kenyon Martin, since no bigs on the Nets bench played over 6 minutes. KMart outboarded Ben 12-8 while scoring 17.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...405200DET.html

    You think Ben ever holds Moses to under Ben's 9.5 ppg average? In 81-82 in Malone's games I looked at games vs. Robert Parrish, a plus defender I randomly chose. Robert held him to 36.5 ppg. The 1st team all defensive center Caldwell Jones held him to 30 points and 20 rebounds.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-10-2014 at 12:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Let's imagine for a moment shall we...

    The B&G take another huge leap forward defensively, but really start to falter on the other side of the court.
    Roy starts tattooing "gnidluaps" on people's foreheads!
    Hill never get's beat off the dribble ever again, and slips through screens like a greased piglet.

    We never give up more than seventy points again this season!

    But Paul takes twenty-seven threes a game and shoots 14 percent.
    Roy never scores another point and we grimace as we watch the bunnies bounce off the rim perpetually.

    (All of these things are nearly in our grasp. Seems all too real).

    So...
    We beat the mighty Heat in six games and hold them to thirty-five percent for the series.
    We shoot twenty nine percent but dominate the glass and live at the line.

    The finals are played in the sixty's but we lose game seven in OKC when Durant and Westbrook
    combine for (a series high) thirty three points with a final score of fifty-seven to fifty-six...
    in overtime. Paul has eleven points on nineteen shots, four steals, nine rebounds, and no free throws.
    Roy goes zero for two, has eight blocks, nine boards.


    That is about as obvious as I can make it that the incomparably greatest defense of all time!!...

    May yet not be champions.
    Last edited by solid; 01-10-2014 at 06:51 AM.

  25. #48
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    Let's imagine for a moment shall we...

    The B&G take another huge leap forward defensively, but really start to falter on the other side of the court.
    Roy starts tattooing "gnidluaps" on people's foreheads!
    Hill never get's beat off the dribble ever again, and slips through screens like a greased piglet.

    We never give up more than seventy points again this season!

    But Paul takes twenty-seven threes a game and shoots 14 percent.
    Roy never scores another point and we grimace as we watch the bunnies bounce off the rim perpetually.

    (All of these things are nearly in our grasp. Seems all too real).

    So...
    We beat the mighty Heat in six games and hold them to thirty-five percent for the series.
    We shoot twenty nine percent but dominate the glass and live at the line.

    The finals are played in the sixty's but we lose game seven in OKC when Durant and Westbrook
    combine for (a series high) thirty three points with a final score of fifty-seven to fifty-six...
    in overtime. Paul has eleven points on nineteen shots, four steals, nine rebounds, and no free throws.
    Roy goes zero for two, has eight blocks, nine boards.


    That is about as obvious as I can make it that the incomparably greatest defense of all time!!...

    May yet not be champions.
    Someone always tries really, really hard to come up with the "best defensive performance ever combined with the worst offensive performance ever" scenario...

    If you hold your opponent to 57 points and your opponent holds you to 56, then you've been beaten at your own game. Obviously the defense has failed to be great in that scenario.

    Sorry, but if you get into a defensive battle and lose the defensive battle, your defense is not as good as you thought.

    This is why numbers don't matter without the championship. You can have all the gaudy stats, but matter most is how did everything hold up when your season was on the line. The first and most important question is "did you win or did you lose?" if the answer is the latter then you are not in the discussion.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-10-2014 at 07:17 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  26. #49
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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    lol
    You're funny
    If you look over the fifty or so games and statistics that I described indeed you can come to different conclusions I see...
    It's just that one of them is so absurd i hadn't imagined it.

    You've an amazing gift to gleam imaginative possibilities that I hadn't suspected.

    That Pacer team didn't obliterate every offense that they faced AND field a putrid offense. No! They...
    "we're beaten at they're own game"

    wow!
    We maybe "inspired" historically good defense in our opponents, serially, for fifty straight games?

    Or maybe luck lust happened to be with every one of those team's (defense) against us on those nights? They gave up 105 a night on average but just had a FANTASTIC night defensively.

    Yeah that's it.
    While it may look to the un-astute like the Pacer's had unheard of defensive performance we've now been assured that it was just luck!
    Those other teams we're BOUND to play one of their best defensive games of franchise history once in awhile...

    It just so happens that it occurred about sixty times in a row to teams that we're pitted against a formidable Pacer offence AND they themselves just happened also to have poor shooting. nights.

    I got it, thanks.

    or in other words: I'm trying here but I am failing in finding an explanation other than mine that doesn't sound preposterous.
    Last edited by solid; 01-10-2014 at 09:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Best NBA defense of all time!

    I see the excuse machine has stalled, and we've moved on to hysterics. Oh well.

    Apparently we've moved on to the "convoluted scenario" portion of our annual discussion. I've already had my fill of those, thanks.

    This entire discussion (as usual) is entirely premature. Nobody ever brings this topic up in June. Wonder why....
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-10-2014 at 09:14 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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