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Thread: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

  1. #101

    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I guess that only makes sense to me if you start your comeback with 2 minutes left (i.e. for whatever reason the other team has built a 10 point lead in a short period at that point). In this case we started playing like we had 2 minutes left when we still had almost the whole 4th quarter.
    You had mentioned missing a bunch of threes though, and they were 2-5 in the 4th before the last 2:04. Taking a look at the video of those 5 shots:

    11:19: The Pacers clearly run a play to get George a 3, and he misses it from the top of the key with 9 on the shot clock. There were two screeners at the foul line to free him.

    10:41: Hawks have a player get back way late, in semi-transition George throws it to a wide open Butler in the corner. He has plenty of time to set his feet and drains the 3.

    9:07 Another one of the Pacers typical plays to get an open three. Butler throws it to George on the post, starts to cut, then turns around and heads back behind the line. Scola sets the screen on his man which frees Butler open for the 3 which he misses.

    8:42: Watson runs pick and roll with Scola who throws it to an open George on the wing. George hits the 3.

    6:18: Pacers lose the ball but in the scramble pick it up. Hill is wide open on the wing with 5 on the shot clock, but he misses the 3.

    After that they went 0-7 from 3 point land, but it started with 2:03 on the clock and the Pacers down 10, which as the previous poster said is a pretty desperate situation at that point. If they got into hurry up mode before that, it doesn't show up on the 3 point shot possessions.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    I don't think anybody is saying that Lance and his energy weren't missed. Obviously any time you miss ANY one of your main players due to injury, it's going to hurt. But the loss of Lance (for one game) wasn't as catastrophic as some make it seem. Had either of our bigs played relatively close to their norm, we win the game. Had our defense played up to it's norm..we win the game. I know some are trying to make a correlation between Lance's absence and our struggles last night, but the fact of the matter is we've struggled with things like this at various times throughout the season WITH Lance.

    We've long been a team whose strength lies within that starting 5. If ANY of the starters go down, we're going to struggle (with maybe the exception of Hill, but that's because Sloan is a pretty good pickup as a 3rd PG)

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Although there maybe times when he takes a jumpshot when he tries to go "iso" on another Player.....but more often than not....I notice that he only takes jumpshots when someone else creates an opportunity for him to take an open shot.

    I have noticed that when Danny "plays" ( not "starts"...cuz that...to me is irrelevant ) he is driving to the basket and trying to pass the ball out to other Players. To me, he is making a real concerted effort to drive to the basket ( where the defense collaspes on him ) and then tries to dish it to an open Player.
    He doesn't do it all the time. But it seems to me he mostly goes to the basket when he receives the ball in transition.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    You had mentioned missing a bunch of threes though, and they were 2-5 in the 4th before the last 2:04. Taking a look at the video of those 5 shots:

    11:19: The Pacers clearly run a play to get George a 3, and he misses it from the top of the key with 9 on the shot clock. There were two screeners at the foul line to free him.

    10:41: Hawks have a player get back way late, in semi-transition George throws it to a wide open Butler in the corner. He has plenty of time to set his feet and drains the 3.

    9:07 Another one of the Pacers typical plays to get an open three. Butler throws it to George on the post, starts to cut, then turns around and heads back behind the line. Scola sets the screen on his man which frees Butler open for the 3 which he misses.

    8:42: Watson runs pick and roll with Scola who throws it to an open George on the wing. George hits the 3.

    6:18: Pacers lose the ball but in the scramble pick it up. Hill is wide open on the wing with 5 on the shot clock, but he misses the 3.

    After that they went 0-7 from 3 point land, but it started with 2:03 on the clock and the Pacers down 10, which as the previous poster said is a pretty desperate situation at that point. If they got into hurry up mode before that, it doesn't show up on the 3 point shot possessions.
    Nice follow-up, thanks. Another reason why the "eye test" doesn't always give the truth - it sure looked like they were rushing to try to get 3s through the 8 minute mark.

    I'm swamped or I would check on the turnovers and missed jumpers early in the shot clock from about 8:00 on just to be sure.
    BillS

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread







    Buckner is talking about the team's offensive struggles since the New Year. It's not just us perfectionist/pessimists.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    He doesn't do it all the time. But it seems to me he mostly goes to the basket when he receives the ball in transition.
    He goes to the basket and either tries to score ( while drawing the foul ) or dishes to someone else. I'm okay with him doing that....I just don't get the sense that it's all about Granger dribbling dribbling and then taking some Jumpshot.

    I have noticed that he is driving to the basket a lot more than I remember him doing before and then seeing him dish to another Player.

    If the rest of the Team is standing and watching....given that I have seen IMHO too much of a willingness to pass the ball to someone else ( once the defense collapses on him )...then that's the fault of the Players. I feel that he is actively trying to look for scoring opportunities for others ( despite not being as good as Lance at doing that ).

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see it as an automatic given that Granger will try to score on his own ( like how we think he used to do ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-09-2014 at 03:44 PM.
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Granger epitomizes team basketball since his return
    David "And One" West

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  12. #108

    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see it as an automatic given that Granger will try to score on his own ( like how we think he used to do ).
    Granger's trying hard to do what's been asked of him. It looks awkward and it's is not always effective, but he's playing the right way.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Euro Big men who shoot 3's are notoriously soft on Defense. It might be a stereotype. I can think of only 2 Euro Big in the NBA that isn't soft on D and that is the Polish Hammer Gortat, and Amir Asik. Those guys don't take 3's though.
    Might be a stereotype?

    Wasn't the defensive player of the year last season a big man from Europe?

    What about Joakim Noah? Or does he not fit your stereotype of a European?

    Even a player like Ilyasova, who can shift to the 4 and shoot the three, isn't exactly soft on defense.

    And since we just played the Hawks, how many times did Pachulia give Roy problems in the post by overpowering and outmuscling him, denying him good position?

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Buckner is talking about the team's offensive struggles since the New Year. It's not just us perfectionist/pessimists.

    To me it still all starts with our defense. When it is average or just a bit better our offense struggles.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Check out this logjam:

    Indiana 28 7 .800 - 17-1 11-6 6-2 20-5 97.0 88.6 +8.4 Lost 1 8-2
    San Antonio 28 8 .778 ˝ 14-5 14-3 6-2 17-6 104.8 96.7 +8.0 Won 3 7-3
    Oklahoma City 27 8 .771 1 15-3 12-5 6-4 17-6 105.8 98.3 +7.6 Lost 1 6-4
    Miami 27 8 .771 1 16-3 11-5 8-0 17-6 104.9 97.9 +7.0 Won 3 8-2
    Portland 27 9 .750 1 ˝

    I can't remember the last time the top of the league looked like this. 5 teams all within 1.5 of each other, and all above .750. There is a serious crop of contenders this year.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Jax View Post
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    It wouldn't have mattered to me if it were PG taking the 3's or CJ or GH, or Danny or anyone who can hit a 3.
    It wouldn't have mattered to me either. But you know that some people do mind it.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Euro Big men who shoot 3's are notoriously soft on Defense. It might be a stereotype. I can think of only 2 Euro Big in the NBA that isn't soft on D and that is the Polish Hammer Gortat, and Amir Asik. Those guys don't take 3's though.
    It absolutely is a stereotype. And I blame Bargnani for it. He has tarnished the reputation of all European big men. Darko Milicic, although a bust at #2, was never soft. Noah (who is a true international citizen since he can be considered both European and American plus part-African) is not soft on D. Valanciunas is not soft on Defense either. There are several examples of European big men that are absolute bruisers in the paint. It's just that most of them are not skilled enough to play in the NBA.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Granger's trying hard to do what's been asked of him. It looks awkward and it's is not always effective, but he's playing the right way.
    I'm not saying that he has shed any of his bad habits but I see him attacking the basket more and trying to get to either get to the FT line or pass it out. Unfortunately, this sometimes does end up with a turnover....which many of his detractors like to point out and highlight. But to be fair....Lance and PG24 does the same exact thing ( attack the basket....defense collapses on them...they tries to pass it out but can't find the person to pass it to ) and they sometimes turns it over too.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not any more so than the rest of the starters.

    With Lance Pacers score 109pts. Without 103. (per 100 possessions)
    With Roy Pacers score 111pts. Without 101.
    With PG Pacers score 110. Without 99.
    With West Pacers score 111. Without 102.

    Seems like the pattern is consistent across the board for the starters.
    Good posts. Additionally, according to NBA.com, Lance is 11th on the team in defensive rating. He's fourth in offensive rating. On Basketball Reference, he's 10th in defense and 5th on offense. He is also 4th in defensive win-shares (above Hill with the other starters ahead) and tied for second with Hill in offensive win shares; he's tied with Roy for second in win shares. These are just estimates (as most things are) but the trend is that he's obviously very important though probably in the second tier of the starters after Paul/Roy. Just putting some figures out there in supplement to the always-perfect eye test.

    I think one question we have to ask is, after being a top nine offensive team two years ago with Danny as the leader, why are we 15th now with Lance playing big minutes and Danny back? I have no fluffing idea.
    Last edited by AesopRockOn; 01-09-2014 at 08:12 PM.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I think one question we have to ask is, after being a top nine offensive team two years ago with Danny as the leader, why are we 15th now with Lance playing big minutes and Danny back? I have no fluffing idea.
    That's due to the lockout season. The condensed schedule and the extra time off at the beginning of the season affected negatively most NBA offenses. Our offense wasn't affected as much as most teams, though, because we kept things simple and didn't turn the ball over.

    According to teamrankings.com our offensive efficiency at 11-12 was 1.021 -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2012-06-21

    That number was good enough for #10 then but would only be #16 in 12-13 and 13-14.

    We are currently at #17 with a 1.011 score -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ive-efficiency
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's due to the lockout season. The condensed schedule and the extra time off at the beginning of the season affected negatively most NBA offenses. Our offense wasn't affected as much as most teams, though, because we kept things simple and didn't turn the ball over.
    I disagree with this assessment. Not only was it Vogel's first full season, but we had to work in two big rotation pieces in David West and George Hill without the benefit of a training camp. We may have exceeded expectations that year, but it's unfair to say that we had fewer obstacles to overcome than most.
    Last edited by LG33; 01-09-2014 at 10:17 PM.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I disagree with this assessment. Not only was it Vogel's first full season, but we had to work in two big rotation pieces in David West and George Hill without the benefit of a training camp. We may have exceeded expectations that year, but it's unfair to say that we had fewer obstacles to overcome than most.
    I didn't say that we had fewer obstacles. We just were one of the few teams that kept things simple and that helped our Offensive Efficiency since we didn't turn the ball over.

    Take a look at the following:

    11-12 Team eFG%: 47.3% (tied for #23) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2012-06-21

    12-13 Team eFG%: 47.8% (#22) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2013-06-20

    13-14 Team eFG%: 49.9% (#11) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...field-goal-pct

    So, as you can see our eFG% has actually been better in the last two seasons even though our Offensive Efficiency has been worse. Why is that? That's solely due to our turnovers.

    11-12 Turnovers per Possession: 15% (#12) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2012-06-21

    12-13 Turnovers per Possession: 16.4% (tied for #29) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ate=2013-06-20

    13-14 Turnovers per Possession: 16.5% (tied for #26) -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...per-possession

    The increase in turnovers has been big enough in order to negate our jump in eFG%. And a lot of that has to do with our offense. Our offense was much simpler in 11-12 and that eliminated turnovers. We use a lot more motion in our sets now and while that can create better shots in general it can also create turnovers.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    You see a game like this and wonder what's wrong with our guys for so many players to just not show up at the same time. Then you see Miami drop to NY and it looks like OKC is getting killed by Denver right now. Great teams have bad games, I'm not going to take the loss as anything more then fatigue. I wish the team had a little more time off instead of playing Friday.

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  31. #120
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I just don't understand how that conclusion can be reached. The Pacers DID lose 6 games with Lance in the lineup. Does that not matter at all? We've seen plenty of games where they looked tired and couldn't pull it out, and others where they could. Which category does this fall into? I don't know, but I know it doesn't mean much long term by itself.
    I don't know if we win this one game or not but I do know I like our chances over the long haul to win as many games as possible when Lance is starting and playing starter minutes.

    We know he can score himself and he can create and get to the basket. He also plays the game with a contagious energy that invigorates his teammates (and infuriates opposing players). His passion for rebounding is also helpful in getting the team out on the break in some cases. And he likes to pass the ball and has an uncanny knack for making really good passes to get players open or get them the ball perfectly ready for an easy shot. Getting an open player the ball is one thing, but getting it to him QUICKLY, and in proper position, are other things to consider that Lance does really well.

    We can talk about certain players not getting it going this game, but Lance is the type of player that helps get other players 'going'. There's just no way to measure that in a single game but you can certainly see the difference.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Check out this logjam:

    Indiana 28 7 .800 - 17-1 11-6 6-2 20-5 97.0 88.6 +8.4 Lost 1 8-2
    San Antonio 28 8 .778 ˝ 14-5 14-3 6-2 17-6 104.8 96.7 +8.0 Won 3 7-3
    Oklahoma City 27 8 .771 1 15-3 12-5 6-4 17-6 105.8 98.3 +7.6 Lost 1 6-4
    Miami 27 8 .771 1 16-3 11-5 8-0 17-6 104.9 97.9 +7.0 Won 3 8-2
    Portland 27 9 .750 1 ˝

    I can't remember the last time the top of the league looked like this. 5 teams all within 1.5 of each other, and all above .750. There is a serious crop of contenders this year.
    I don't consider Portland a contender just YET. I try not to get too too high on a hot start unless there was some history of sustained success.
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    I agree (OOOPS-no quote - agree that this team is a sum of its parts team overall), but I think Lance is the offensive catalyst and our primary energy source. In other words, the poster who compared him to the "engine" driving us. He's essentially our best point guard and our best wing dribble drive rim attacker. Take both those strengths away and our offense gets a lot easier to defend. It becomes notably less multidimensional. He's not bad on D either, when he's focused on it, which is not nearly as consistent as past years.

    So we can't win without any number of guys from our starters particularly for long stretches - Roy, PG, West. But from an offensive standpoint, I think we have to make up more with Lance out than we would with any other player out.
    Last edited by D-BONE; 01-10-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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  36. #123
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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I agree (OOOPS-no quote - agree that this team is a sum of its parts team overall), but I think Lance is the offensive catalyst and our primary energy source. In other words, the poster who compared him to the "engine" driving us. He's essentially our best point guard and our best wing dribble drive rim attacker. Take both those strengths away and our offense gets a lot easier to defend. It becomes notably less multidimensional. He's not bad on D either, when he's focused on it, which is not nearly as consistent as past years.

    So we can't win without any number of guys from our starters particularly for long stretches - Roy, PG, West. But from an offensive standpoint, I think we have to make up more with Lance out than we would with any other player out.
    I keep saying this. We already have three hammers. We don't need another one. We need a wrench. When you remove Lance from the toolbox, it gets really difficult.
    .

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't know if we win this one game or not but I do know I like our chances over the long haul to win as many games as possible when Lance is starting and playing starter minutes.
    That wasn't in dispute. Lance being the main guy that makes the team run is what was questioned. I agree with what you're saying regarding Lance, but I also think you can swap out Lance and plug in either PG/Roy and the statement would ring just as true.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: 2014-01-08 Pacers lost to Hawks. Post game thread

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    We already have three hammers.
    No they don't. They all have different skillsets, that's what makes this team so good because of how well they compliment each other. Together they make up a loaded toolbox, just not a box with three hammers and a wrench.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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