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Thread: Vnzla81

  1. #101
    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Remarkably candid. Thanks count.

    cdash, you and I have interacted with each other for years, both here and on RealGM. We weren't friends, but we have gotten along reasonably well for most of that time. This is true, despite the fact we have very different posting styles and very different tastes in terms of the type of interaction we enjoy. The reason it can work, is that we respect the differences and do not create situations to lead to problems.
    Yes, I would wager we have interacted with one another for 6-7 years between here and RealGM. That was the first forum I ever participated in, and remember very specifically being a royal pain in your *** as at the time you moderated that forum. I learned a lot from acting like a flaming bag of dicks back in those days. I think I even PMed you at one point here to apologize for my asshattery at RealGM.

    Good post though. I have largely bowed out of this discussion and really have not kept up with this thread since I made that post, and will continue to do so. It's hit the point where we are talking in circles.

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  3. #102
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    The problem I see with the above is comparing Vnzla with Ol'Blu. That is not an apples to apples comparison. Ol Blu staked claim to any position that he knew would cause people to argue with him. He didn't bring anything to the table except posts and comments that were intentionally to get a reaction. He's a lot like the analogy someone mentioned about going to another team's board and telling them their top players suck.

    Vnzla just had a contrary opinion ON SOME THINGS with the vocal majority of the forum. Far from all things though. Vnzla is clearly a Pacers fan. Ol' Blu might not even be a football fan. OL Blu wasn't posting to share opinions and debate other Pacer (or Colts) fans. That is a big difference for Vnzla.

    But what was allowed to happen with Vnzla was posters were allowed to poke at him and ridicule his opinions that didn't match with their own. He could dish it out as well as take it and so he did. But nobody really chided the posters for mocking him or ridiculing him. No mod ever rode in and said "Stop it... Both sides! Vnzla has a right to his opinions just as much as you do and even when it's a minority opinion it doesn't make him necessarily wrong". Instead, mods piled on too. Only Vnzla was called out. It was a vicious cycle because that just encouraged others to do it even more. And it empowered the vocal majority to feel even more confident in their positions.

    Basically it became OK to insult Vnzla. But the reverse was never true.

    And now it's looking more and more like a personal grudge got it to this point.

    As I said back a few posts, if as implied his banning was inevitable at some point then surely there was going to be something more justifiable than the heart and soul comment and then being insulted with the 'blog' comment.

    I was assuming Vnzla went out in a blaze of glory with both barrels blasting via PM to explain the rest of what transpired. Personally, I think once a mod hands out a punishment it's understood that the other person is going to likely be insulted and initially emotional. Especially in this case with the bad blood that was obviously brewing between the two. So I expected something much more blatant than what we've seen posted so far.

    Honestly, I'm shocked. That should've been easy to step back from and allow some cool down if emotions weren't overruling logic IMO. I'm very, very surprised that this was all that transpired if that is the case.
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  5. #103
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    cdash, you and I have interacted with each other for years, both here and on RealGM. We weren't friends, but we have gotten along reasonably well for most of that time. This is true, despite the fact we have very different posting styles and very different tastes in terms of the type of interaction we enjoy. The reason it can work, is that we respect the differences and do not create situations to lead to problems.
    I know that you are a retired mod in RealGM but I had no idea that Cdash was a member there. Your comments on his profile are not really kind but they are from 2008

    The one troll that I clearly remember is Indy2thaWindy. Gosh, such a horrible poster. He took SOOOOO much pleasure out of bashing Darren Collison.

    In any case, I agree with the gist of your post. I didn't want Vnzla to get banned but the layout that you posted happened a lot. I didn't really help with it. I was the guy responding to him too often
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  6. #104
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Ol Blu staked claim to any position that he knew would cause people to argue with him.
    That's what Vnzla did most of the time as well. He had some sincere positions as well but a lot of his positions were formed and articulated in a way that he knew that were going to be insulting to others.
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  8. #105
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Do you have any clue about the number of infractions we handed out to people baiting vnzla or just (really) overreacting?

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  10. #106
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Hicks is taking the brunt of the abuse, because he was the guy stuck holding the bag for Peck, Shade, and the other mods who did little or nothing while the situation continued to deteriorate.
    I have stayed out of this, I am going to stay out of this & I would prefer not to be mentioned in this.

    However since you have taken the time to single both myself and Shade out as mods who did little or nothing I feel compelled to speak for myself.

    NOTE I AM NOT IN ANY WAY EXPRESSING THE OPINION OF SHADE, I WILL LET HIM SPEAK FOR HIMSELF.

    I deeply resent the accusation that I stood around and did nothing over the past few years. For someone who admittedly has avoided the place for awhile now you seem certain to have the answers. So do you care to share with all of us how you came to the conclusion? Do you have the p.m. exchanges that went on over the years between myself and several posters and admins?

    I do.

    Do you have access to the admin board and and can show years and years of posts dealing with this very topic that I addressed?

    I do.

    Perhaps you are confused on the chain of command around here so let me make one thing very clear here.

    AT NO TIME HAVE I EVER BEEN THE LEAD ADMINISTRATOR TO THIS SITE.

    I have never had the authority to unilaterally act on my own with a major decision.

    I have been a mediator a counselor and advocate and a few other things over that time frame so for you to accuse me of doing nothing when I have absolute proof that I certainly did was frankly ******** and I resent it.

    Now while I won't speak for Shade I will defend him in the same exact way. Just because you disagree'd with the way he handled it, and for about a year he was the lead admin., doesn't mean he did nothing either. That is also ********.

    He certainly did and I have the p.m.'s between myself and him to prove it as well as the admin. board where he expressed his opinion along with the rest of us.

    Do I say we handled everything appropriately? No. But we did act on it and to say otherwise is absolutely without question 100% false.


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  12. #107
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I thanked Peck's post because I agree with it. I also thank him for his work moderating this forum...not just his Odd Thoughts for which he should be paid to write.

    The point is, each of the posters in this thread (including cdash and count55 whom I have locked horns with), add a lot to this forum. My advice is that everyone take a deep breath and lighten up. Try not to take things here too seriously. I enjoy coming here to debate topics and learn more about the team and its players...and I don't really like to see this level of dissension. V is not worth that.

    The point is, V deserved his fate. Maybe the timing could be criticized. Maybe the post that was used to push things over the edge as well. But the man earned it. I know it and everyone here knows it too. So, can we calm down and get back to discussing Pacer basketball? The teams doing pretty well...
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 01-12-2014 at 10:37 PM.

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  14. #108
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The point is, each of the posters in this thread (including cdash and count55 whom I have locked horns with)
    I don't know how I should feel about this. On the one hand, it was a compliment, so for that I thank you. On the other hand, I am trying to remember locking horns with you and I can't come up with anything, which means I've been an ******* more times than I can remember on here

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  16. #109
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I don't know how I should feel about this. On the one hand, it was a compliment, so for that I thank you. On the other hand, I am trying to remember locking horns with you and I can't come up with anything, which means I've been an ******* more times than I can remember on here
    I have to be honest. I am afraid you are correct. But I'm also afraid I'm the pot calling the kettle black.

    Edit: BTW, if you are grouped with Count55 you are in good company. Just because I've locked horned with someone doesn't mean I don't respect their opinion.

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  18. #110
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    EDIT: If you really think the admins are this vindictive, you'd think they'd ban you too instead of answering your questions and actually holding a debate on the topic.
    I recently hit my 10 year mark. Hasn't my tenure kicked in by now? I doubt they'd want to take on the union if they banned me.

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  20. #111
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do you have any clue about the number of infractions we handed out to people baiting vnzla or just (really) overreacting?

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    ummm...yea...i had a post deleted just the other day and received an infraction....and still find it bewildering...the only plausible explanation was it was directed at the poster in question....

    its very simple...the forum is a much better place now that hes gone...it was a much better place in the 30 days or so he was gone before...

    and if indeed its true what some say about him being much different in person than he is on here...then another thing is certain...hes much better off as well...because if this place brings out what it seemingly did and transforms him into the persona we all had to deal with...well..then...again, hes better off not being here...

    so hicks has done just about everyone a huge favor...even if some are too blind to realize it or a very select few with an obvious personal agenda want to disagree...

    but again..one thing is an absolute certainty...the forum is markedly better...and much more pleasant to read

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  22. #112
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    To be perfectly honest, the operative word is respect . You can lock horns, disagree, vent, yell, whatever - as long as it is clear there is respect it is fine.

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  24. #113
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    so hicks has done just about everyone a huge favor...even if some are too blind to realize it or a very select few with an obvious personal agenda want to disagree...
    Obvious personal agendas? What would those be? Are we trying to run a coup d'état against Hicks on his own website? Come on now, let's leave the extremes at home. Some of us disagree on how it was handled. We expressed as much. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I know I, personally, never wanted anything more than a healthy discussion about it, which I think we have had here. That was my agenda. I doubt anyone thought we were going to get vnzla's ban lifted or anything like that.

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  26. #114
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Wait, some of you don't think V intentionally staked his claim to inflammatory opinions? His two favorite opinions were Danny Granger and David West being overpaid.

    I mean I really didn't want to see the guy banned because I have a thick skin and admittedly can go round and round for hours with someone and be thoroughly entertained, but I also realize that most people are not like that.

    Vnzla was a dick on here. He wasn't in real life. Honestly, if I had never met the guy in real life I would have thought he was just a royal dick who liked smelling his own farts, but since I met him I realized there is more to him than that. However, he was asked more than once even publicly to try and tone down his machismo (BillS and Peck were the first two to describe V this way and I htink it is on the nose), and he just didn't. When you're in person it's OK, he can explain the machismo away with logic, unfortunately in the written medium, V often went down to a lower denominator of winking smiley faces and LOLZ. That annoys the heck out of a lot of people. Even if it doesn't annoy the heck out of EVERYONE.

    I got really tired of trying to have a debate with V though by the same token and having a bunch of people come in and just call for him to be banned. It clogged the topic at hand and often allowed V to wiggle out of corners where he had clearly been caught with an over-stated opinion. That was a major issue to all of this. Part of the reason V never got proven wrong is that people would often let him off the hook by calling for him to be banned regardless of what he posted.

    It was a screwed up a situation from GO. V's personality is not text/internet friendly. If this was really about a war against V, the dude would have been gone 3 years ago. I know Peck has stuck his neck out for him more than once and had tried to explain to him why people had issues. I know Hicks hasn't liked him in a long time probably since 2011. If this was really a personal thing, this thread would have happened then not now, because V wouldn't have made it this long.

    I agree with what Count said. The limb was dying. PD was changing. People were more reactionary and everyone thought calling for banz was the way to solve a problem. Is it all V's fault? No, maybe not, but he was definitely the finger that was frost bitten the worst and sometimes you have to sacrifice a finger to save the hand.

    Honestly, I'm shocked the guy made it back from his Danny Granger war path back in the summer when literally anyone who suggested Danny could help us met with a LOL or a smirk smiley, the guys balance just went too far in the red. I'll miss debating him, just because I love debating pretty much anything, but I can understand why he had to go.

    As far as what V said, I've been the target of his intentionally worded barbs. he makes it look like an honest mistake, but he's doing it to needle you. Yes, calling the site a "blog" is on the surface just a word that is not that inflammatory, but you have to consider the source in a situation like this. Let me promise you all, V knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he sent that to Hicks. The guy isn't an idiot.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 01-12-2014 at 11:49 PM.

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  28. #115
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I recently hit my 10 year mark. Hasn't my tenure kicked in by now? I doubt they'd want to take on the union if they banned me.
    V had what? the 5th or 6th most posts on this forum? With more than a few willing to speak up in his defense.

    I know you're upset Soll, but I also know that you're smart enough to know why this really happened. It wasn't about one post, and I also think you know that deep down V did **** on a lot of people over the year. Eventually **** piles up. You can only shovel it so many times.

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  30. #116
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    V had what? the 5th or 6th most posts on this forum? With more than a few willing to speak up in his defense.

    I know you're upset Soll, but I also know that you're smart enough to know why this really happened. It wasn't about one post, and I also think you know that deep down V did **** on a lot of people over the year. Eventually **** piles up. You can only shovel it so many times.
    That quoted post of mine was just sarcasm, TJ.

  31. #117
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    That quoted post of mine was just sarcasm, TJ.
    Oops

    I guess here's my final word on this, because I really didn't want to come in here in the first place, but I don't think V should have been banned for the last event that took place, BUT if I was the admin I would have banned him two years ago. There was a time before V became public enemy number 1 before every thread he went to people called for his head, where he was a just a royal *******. The fact he had made it past that time period can be debated up and down, if I was in the admins shoes, I would have dropped the banhammer then. V had toned it down, I think it sucks that he got banned during this great season, but it is kind of funny that West immediately turned around and had maybe his best game of the season Friday LOL

    All I'm saying I'm surprised he made it this long, I don't think that was Hicks choice, but I think PD as a community gave V plenty of rope. He finally hung himself.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 01-13-2014 at 12:01 AM.

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  32. #118
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do you have any clue about the number of infractions we handed out to people baiting vnzla or just (really) overreacting?

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    If you're asking me, my opinion is it was too little, too late and the horse was far out of the barn. Too many people, including even some mods, had engaged in the type of behavior that was problematic that it had grown cancerous overall. Plus, one problem with the infraction system as it's used here is nobody but the receiver gets any guidance from it. The offending post disappears and likely the followups/replies do too. Then, unless you just happened to be Johnny on the Spot to see it all go down, you have no idea where the lines were and what was said. The posts were erased that could've served as guideposts for the entire forum to see an example of where the line is being drawn.

    So for example if there's a history of arguing with Vnzla and certain things were allowed and it's all formerly been condoned by the admins either directly or by implication (by not setting a better example but to join in in some cases) then those examples stood for everyone to see. Then if the tactic changed to handing out infractions and deleting posts then that isn't going to have the same impact. Particularly short term. Things will keep popping up over and over again. If you put the line one place and make it obvious, it's very hard to move the line if you don't make it just as obvious. And still, when it come down to it, Vnzla was the one getting the ultimate infraction.

    O'Brien talked about the importance of defense but what he really cared about was the volume of 3's his teams could take and make and defense was barely an afterthought. That example was set by his actions over and over again. If one day he suddenly started caring about defense then the team wouldn't get the picture unless he started visibly coaching differently for all to see. Not just talking to Bird about it in the office and having a few private conversations with players behind closed doors.

    Edit: We're kind of going around in circles but hopefully something resonates and a future situation does not end up like this with some lessons learned by all everyone.
    Last edited by Bball; 01-13-2014 at 05:56 AM.
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  34. #119
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    A few words in answer and as remarks, not to perpetuate this thread;

    @Bball: if the law says 3 strikes and you're out, does the 3rd have to be the worst or can it be the smallest of the 3 and does the graveness make a difference to it being "out"?
    I don't believe it does and therefore anyone arguing that the 350th violation, however minor in some eyes, is not a justifiable "out" misses the entire point and should be pointed to a little story about a boy, a flock of sheep and boredom, Cry Wolf only goes down this much just like it maybe fun to yell fire in a busy convention or push the fire-alarm button at a party in a hotel, it's all against the law and whether or not damages were done is not that relevant

    @Count: you were on track with 90% of your post, the last but suggesting admins had done little or nothing ruined all the good work, because there you made an assumption that not only did you understand it, you would also have handled it better and been more active. Now that is something (as Peck pointed out vehemently) which is wrong on all accounts.
    Which was right however is how we deal with people like Olblu and Vnzla, they are very hard to deal with as an admin force. The least moderation will earn the admins a bad reputation, to many infractions and his followers come up and rise to the defense, however few there may be they are still a disturbance.

    I've felt when I banned him 30 days not to long ago, and yes that was me, unilaterally but allowing my fellow admins to change this aftert the fact, I did so because he crossed lines, to many times.
    I made it clear to him in PM that his stay on this board was nearing it's end if he did not clean up his act, since we ALL felt that the board had degraded badly over the past period where his presence became more and more prominent. His rise to prominence was equal to the demise of the board and the loss of posters most of us appreciate when they post.
    It lead to friction among admins, some which still remains, it even lead to me admonishing Bills and "asking" him to drop the sarcasm, and lastly yes (@bball) it made me reconsonsider what on earth I am doing here and why on earth I am putting up with all this.

    @sollozzo: you are wrong in so many ways that for you to say "you don't understand" mean that you're telling me one of two things, either you truly don't understand/are to blind to see and to that I can only express pitty or you are an agent for Vnzla and he posts through you, which I can understand, but not appreciate.

    What we tried to achieve with this banning, like we did with all the non-spam bannings around here, is to improve or restore the community feeling and posting with respect for what this board is known for throughout the world. Shwoing respect is not easy, being polite even harder, but still it is nice if we all try to be civilized in our postings, and this make this a place where you can come daily to read up on and discuss one of your favorite topics which in actual fact should you do this at home or in the local, might earn you a bad rep for never having anything else to talk about.

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  36. #120
    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He was alive as of December 20:

    (note the thread starter....)

    http://forums.colts.com/topic/24430-...qbs-this-year/
    And I notice that they wised up and banned him too. He made it here longer than he did there. That should tell some folks that the admins here are beyond patient when he can't make it at two differnet forums. It's well known that I think they were too patient in his case but whatever. I don't get a vote.
    Last edited by travmil; 01-13-2014 at 10:47 AM.

  37. #121
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    And I notice that they wised up and banned him too. He made it here longer than he did there. That should tell some folks that the admins here are beyond patient when he can't make it at two differnet forums. It's well known that I think they were too patient in his case but whatever. I don't get a vote.
    I think it was his second stint there lol. He was around as "OlBlu" a year ago or so.

    The picture was probably a dead giveaway.......

  38. #122
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I think it was his second stint there lol. He was around as "OlBlu" a year ago or so.

    The picture was probably a dead giveaway.......
    lol He somehow got on my Twitter and it blowing it up with dozens of messages.

    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" lang="en"><p>Watch &quot;Artificial Fruit Soda Creates Cancer Causing By-Product...and Looks Like ****&quot; on YouTube - <a href="http://t.co/IJySBLVzDO">http://t.co/IJySBLVzDO</a></p>&mdash; olblueyez (@BTandKM) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTandKM/statuses/422815506786430976">January 13, 2014</a></blockquote>
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    Last edited by McKeyFan; 01-13-2014 at 03:57 PM.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    lol He somehow got on my Twitter and it blowing it up with dozens of messages.

    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" lang="en"><p>Watch "Artificial Fruit Soda Creates Cancer Causing By-Product...and Looks Like ****" on YouTube - <a href="http://t.co/IJySBLVzDO">http://t.co/IJySBLVzDO</a></p>— olblueyez (@BTandKM) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTandKM/statuses/422815506786430976">January 13, 2014</a></blockquote>
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    Lol, is that really him?

  40. #124
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Doesn't look like him.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Doesn't look like him.

    I didn't think so either. It looks like he shares an affinity for sunglasses though.

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