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Thread: Vnzla81

  1. #76
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    That's why some of us feel that this was a vendetta-driven witch hunt.
    When reading this thread I was amazed at your unreasonableness. If Hicks had had a vendetta, with his authority he wouldn't have taken such a long time to act on it! And he wasn't the one that suspended V a month ago.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 01-12-2014 at 01:33 PM.

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  3. #77
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    So if you have a good reputation, you can have a paragraph's worth of sarcasm.......but if you have a bad reputation, you get an infraction for a one liner that would no doubt be considered tame if it were made by any other poster?

    Didn't realize it said that in the rules. But it does look like we're getting closer to admitting that there are different rules for different posters. I do think it's clear that vnzla was at the point where him simply giving his opinion was going to be considered infraction-worthy.
    I doubt the rules change as much as you have a bank account with the Admins. If you start bouncing checks, the account is getting closed. Seriously, the post might have put his account in the red by a penny but the check still bounced.

    Now, I don't think Admins ban people who don't irritate them...so I fully expect it was personal to some extent...but I have no problem with that. Last time I checked all the Admins are also human and however they wish to proceed is up to them. As Able said...and I hardly ever agree with the man...this is not a democracy. We should already be getting used to that living in this nation under this administration. Laws are merely guidelines and those in power can rewrite them anytime they want.

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  5. #78
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    When reading this thread I was amazed at your unreasonableness. If Hicks had had a vendetta he wouldn't have taken such a long time to act on it!
    I'm amazed at your unreasonableness in accusing me for having unreasonableness because I accused the admins of unreasonableness.

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  7. #79
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Soll man, I like you, I hope you move on. Mature people have to understand when to stop and draw a line. Like olblu, nzla struggled with this concept. It's good and right to stand up and moderate your dissent... but when you increase your expression of dissent to a point where people are asking you to tone it down, and you continue to conduct yourself against the policies of the community, it becomes disrespect.

    Vnzla had a million posts on these boards, I think more posts than all but a few. He was given all the freedom in the world to express himself for a long time.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 01-12-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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  9. #80
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I asked Vnzla81 if he wanted me to share his pm's for me to post on this thread, and he said he did. Here is what he said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vnzla81_pm1 View Post
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    This is ridiculous people get to say worse things but I can't say heart and soul? what a joke.

    The double standard in this blog is ridiculous.
    And after a reply, he said:


    Quote Originally Posted by Vnzla81_pm2 View Post
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    It's a blog as long as you keep giving infractions to those that disagree with you and give thanks to those that you agree with, people have to agree with you or else, it's your blog.

    And I tried to find another community but it looks like the other bloggers are PD members too so they are also riding the high horse and think they are the kings of the castle because they can give away infractions lol
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  11. #81
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I asked Vnzla81 if he wanted me to share his pm's for me to post on this thread, and he said he did. Here is what he said:



    And after a reply, he said:
    Thanks for those shared PMs. I'll have to disagree with his position that this is a blog, though.
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  13. #82
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    McKeyFan, thank you very much for posting those.

    Assuming those are the extent of what was said, all I can say is that I feel very comfortable in the position I've taken throughout this thread. Very very very comfortable.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    McKeyFan, thank you very much for posting those.

    Assuming those are the extent of what was said, all I can say is that I feel very comfortable in the position I've taken throughout this thread. Very very very comfortable.
    If you were to go in to a work after being written up multiple upon multiple of times, then when your boss calls you into the office you insult him multiple times, do you think you still have a job? Hell no.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    McKeyFan, thank you very much for posting those.

    Assuming those are the extent of what was said, all I can say is that I feel very comfortable in the position I've taken throughout this thread. Very very very comfortable.
    I'm pretty sure that V was much more amicable to a poster with whom he has agreed in the past with like McKey in comparison with someone that he hasn't agreed with like Hicks.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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  18. #85
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm pretty sure that V was much more amicable to a poster with whom he has agreed in the past with like McKey in comparison with someone that he hasn't agreed with like Hicks.
    He sent me PD emails with the exact exchanges, not a cleaned up recollection for me.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  20. #86
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    McKeyFan, thank you very much for posting those.

    Assuming those are the extent of what was said, all I can say is that I feel very comfortable in the position I've taken throughout this thread. Very very very comfortable.
    So let me ask you - when an admin chooses to let something go, is that supposed to reset the poster's perceived attitude? If not, then how many repeated incidents have to take place before it's allowed to make a sum total that needs action? And, finally, if people are so completely convinced that this is a fascist message board that bans people willy-nilly for no good reason, why is there only about one non-spammer banning per year? Is it just that everyone else is complicent kiss-ups?

    We're not going to change anyone's mind even if we published every PM over the last few years. I don't know what more to say. We appreciate the feedback and that it is being discussed in the proper place,

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  22. #87
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    He sent me PD emails with the exact exchanges, not a cleaned up recollection for me.
    I thought that the PMs that you posted were directed at you by Vnzla. Was those PMs his exact exchanges with Hicks?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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  23. #88
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I thought that the PMs that you posted were directed at you by Vnzla. Was those PMs his exact exchanges with Hicks?
    V lives on. It was nice knowing you McKeyFan.

  24. #89
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    To clarify on the 'blog' comments, understand that he only calls PD a 'blog' when he is demeaning it. It's not some innocent misunderstanding of web terminology. He knew what he was doing, and he knew I didn't appreciate it.

    I already told you that it wasn't that bad, and I also told you that it's level of severity wasn't the point. He didn't have to use a 'naughty word' or make a sexual reference in order for it to be insulting. He chose, for the Nth bleeping time, to deliberately be demeaning and/or rude, and as far as I am concerned, that is insulting. It's especially insulting when it's not the first, second, third, fourth, etc., etc. time he's displayed this attitude towards me, towards other administrators, or towards other forum members.

    His attitude sucks, and it continued to suck far too often for far too long. That's what it amounts to. This was not abnormal attitude from him, brought on by an 'unjust' infraction (the others have already realized and articulated why it was justified), and this was his par for the course with him. I put up with it a ton of times, other admins put up with it a ton of times, other forum members put up with it a ton of times, and eventually, we're just not having it anymore. We're just not. Especially when we don't owe anyone this much tolerance in the first place. And if it was petty and personal, this would have happened in 2012, not in 2014. You cannot argue this point because I haven't liked the guy for years, he's been rude to me for years, and this last go-round didn't budge my feelings, one way or another, one iota.

    Most of you seem to understand this, while a few of you don't. I feel justified in what I've done, and I think some of the accusations and analogies that have been laid at my feet in this thread are pretty damn awful and hurtful. 'Thank you so much' for those.

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  26. #90
    Cardiac Colts khaos01207's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    To clarify on the 'blog' comments, understand that he only calls PD a 'blog' when he is demeaning it. It's not some innocent misunderstanding of web terminology. He knew what he was doing, and he knew I didn't appreciate it.

    I already told you that it wasn't that bad, and I also told you that it's level of severity wasn't the point. He didn't have to use a 'naughty word' or make a sexual reference in order for it to be insulting. He chose, for the Nth bleeping time, to deliberately be demeaning and/or rude, and as far as I am concerned, that is insulting. It's especially insulting when it's not the first, second, third, fourth, etc., etc. time he's displayed this attitude towards me, towards other administrators, or towards other forum members.

    His attitude sucks, and it continued to suck far too often for far too long. That's what it amounts to. This was not abnormal attitude from him, brought on by an 'unjust' infraction (the others have already realized and articulated why it was justified), and this was his par for the course with him. I put up with it a ton of times, other admins put up with it a ton of times, other forum members put up with it a ton of times, and eventually, we're just not having it anymore. We're just not. Especially when we don't owe anyone this much tolerance in the first place. And if it was petty and personal, this would have happened in 2012, not in 2014. You cannot argue this point because I haven't liked the guy for years, he's been rude to me for years, and this last go-round didn't budge my feelings, one way or another, one iota.

    Most of you seem to understand this, while a few of you don't. I feel justified in what I've done, and I think some of the accusations and analogies that have been laid at my feet in this thread are pretty damn awful and hurtful. 'Thank you so much' for those.
    Hicks understand that most users here on PD believe you were justified as well, and there isn't some grand conspiracy against you just a couple disgruntled friends of Vnz who refuse to acknowledge that this has been a problem for years on end.

    If you were as petty as they are trying (and failing) to make you seem they would have been banned on the spot for questioning an admin decision.

    You have went far and beyond what most admins on most sites would have, you can't please everyone.
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  28. #91
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I thought that the PMs that you posted were directed at you by Vnzla. Was those PMs his exact exchanges with Hicks?
    Yes, as far as I know.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  30. #92
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Yes, as far as I know.
    I see. Thanks for answering this question, mate.
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  31. #93
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by khaos01207 View Post
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    Hicks understand that most users here on PD believe you were justified as well, and there isn't some grand conspiracy against you just a couple disgruntled friends of Vnz who refuse to acknowledge that this has been a problem for years on end.

    If you were as petty as they are trying (and failing) to make you seem they would have been banned on the spot for questioning an admin decision.

    You have went far and beyond what most admins on most sites would have, you can't please everyone.
    Nice post, but there isn't a topic on this board that has ever pleased everyone. Hopefully we can move on and save everyone's skin here.

    Personally, I would welcome back both OlBlu and V. I know they are both trolls, but they are "our" trolls. At the same time I don't have to police them and I know they are high maintenance. But I know that both brought some entertainment to the board while also making some very good points.

    Even now, I recall OlBlu ranting about Peyton Manning and as we all know now, Peyton has torn it up in Denver and set NFL records putting up better numbers there than he ever did here. Peyton may well play another 5 years at this rate. OlBlu might not even be alive today, but he's vindicated.

    Then you have V who is right about Granger and the whole issue of him starting vs Lance. That Atlanta loss showed how much we miss Lance...and even if we had two or three Grangers, it's not as important as one Lance.

    In any event, I will miss V and hope he finds someplace to call home...

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  33. #94
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Then you have V who is right about Granger
    He really isn't, though.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    OlBlu might not even be alive today, but he's vindicated.

    He was alive as of December 20:

    (note the thread starter....)

    http://forums.colts.com/topic/24430-...qbs-this-year/

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Let's keep this about feedback to the admins and their responses and not discuss other topics.

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  37. #97
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    V lives on. It was nice knowing you McKeyFan.
    I don't see me being penalized for posting the pm's. Hicks was not in a position to ethically post them without V's permission. I'd like to think I offered a service to better understanding the concerns in this thread.

    Are there some decisions I'd like to see done differently. Yep. But, at the end of the day, I have to remind myself that this is a free forum run by volunteers. So I do appreciate the service and the effort.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    A shorter leash to the point where he basically couldn't give his opinion any longer. A leash so short that he got an infraction for a tame one line post that would be glossed over if it were literally any other poster. When you start basically making up new rules for a specific poster, then it crosses into vendetta territory.
    Wow, he's even got you making him a victim now. He could give his opinion, he could give it the way you do. Instead, he chose to be a constant *******, so he got banned. It's not what he said, but rather HOW he said it.

    You might consider them making them up, but the rules changed quite a while ago and they were done so to try to avoid the problems. V couldn't adjust to the rules, he was given multiple chances too. Sooner or later, you reach the point where your bite doesn't mean anything or you follow through with the threats.

    I would have thought his 30 day vacation would have been a clear warning to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Why does it matter to me? I liked the guy and enjoyed talking with him. I'm not saying that he was perfect, but I do feel that he was definitely done wrong here.
    He's not dead. PM BnG and maybe he can give you the list where Vnzla wants people to follow him on other sites.

    EDIT: If you really think the admins are this vindictive, you'd think they'd ban you too instead of answering your questions and actually holding a debate on the topic.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-12-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    When reading this thread I was amazed at your unreasonableness. If Hicks had had a vendetta, with his authority he wouldn't have taken such a long time to act on it! And he wasn't the one that suspended V a month ago.

    No kidding. The guy got a leash that was 3 years long, and the complaint is that the leash is too short...
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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  43. #100
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    If any other poster had posted the comment that led to vnzla's infraction and subsequent ban, would it have earned an infraction? Literally--ANY other member of this board.
    I've avoided this place for awhile, but I can't think of any other current posters that would...but OlBlu probably would, and I can think of some that would have from years past...both from here or RealGM.

    Would any moderator besides Hicks have given vnzla or--literally--anyone else an infraction for that post? And yes I know the history and the backstory and the "I farted daddy" analogies but let's try to break this down from the abstract into the simplest terms possible. If Hicks didn't have a personal problem with vnzla, would these 64 posts worth of discussion have happened? That was only quasi-rhetorical.
    True, the post in question - taken by itself without any context - should not have drawn an infraction. True, the personal animosity between vnzla and Hicks played too large of a role in the event immediately preceding vnzla's banning. But...what you're implying here - that vnzla was only banned because Hicks didn't like him - is completely untrue.

    Vnzla was banned, because a lot of people didn't like him.

    What many don't understand - or perhaps, don't want to admit - is that this is why virtually all poster bannings happen. In the vast majority of cases, said poster is kind enough to commit obvious, ban-worthy offenses. Most are about as subtle as a jackhammer, though considerably less intelligent, so nobody misses them. But...while most have specific events that can be conveniently pointed out as evidence, the reason that KOBEROXLEBRONSUXAZZ69 was shown the door was because he couldn't play well with others.

    Vnzla - and posters like him - are much more difficult and much worse than your run-of-the-mill dumbass. They are the bane of forums, forum members, and forum mods all over. Vnzla didn't respect anything, except his own opinion, and he made that clear to everyone. Then, when people responded in kind, he played the victim. The cycle repeats over and over again, until their very presence creates the problem.

    The problem that moderators and other posters face has multiple aspects. First, is that stealth trolls like these rarely commit overt acts. They just poke. And they poke. And they poke. In that context, no comment they make is ever innocuous. All of this leads to the second part of the problem, which is the reactions that the poking provokes. The troll creates the environment - is really the cause of the problem - but other posters end up committing the violations, and the moderators are stuck in between.

    But, far more problematic, is that their presence becomes pervasive. Vnzla infected the entire Pacer board...or at least he did up to just before the season started, when I essentially stopped coming here. I can't think of a long-form topic thread over the last two seasons that didn't have a least one of the following exchanges:

    1. low grade vnzla snark
    2. somebody taking the bait
    3. vnzla upping the snark
    4. the responder upping his complaints
    5. people telling the responder to ignore vnzla
    6. people *****ing about vnzla, some requesting a ban
    7. people *****ing about people *****ing about vnzla
    8. someone trying to make it about people persecuting vnzla for having unpopular beliefs (it never was, and he rarely did)
    then, either
    9. a valiant few heroically drag the thread back on topic
    or
    9b. the thread dies.

    Guh.

    Vnzla made the whole forum worse - in a lot of ways - but the most damaging was that his presence fed an atmosphere in which everyone treated everyone else just a little bit worse each day. Reacting to, dealing with, avoiding, and being unable to avoid vnzla adversely affected how other posters operated and posted. I'll give an example that will require a personal, face-to-face apology from me on Tuesday night to that person on Tuesday night (or at one of the games this week).

    BillS is a great guy and one of the best posters on here. He's one of the few that I speak to personally, and I have a lot of respect for him. However, I do believe that his posting style has become increasingly shrill and preemptively sarcastic over the last couple of years - a time frame during which Bill and the rest of the moderating team has spent working with vnzla on the issues the board was having with him.

    It's not just Bill. In the few times that I was sucked into the vnzla vortex, I found myself re-reading posts that I thought - in retrospect - were unhelpful, or deleting drafts of post that were just plain ugly. Whenever vnzla was involved, I felt both stupider and meaner.

    And, cdash, I think it played a big role in the exchange you had with Hicks in the suggestion box. I think Hicks was in vnzla-mode, and while I think he was wrong in the way he handled that specific instance, I can very clearly understand how it could happen without any malicious intent.

    But, more importantly, the existence of guys like vnzla - and OlBlu - is the reason for the creation of rules like the one mentioned. It is - from a general point of view - a pretty useless rule. But, as the general tone on a board gets worse, moderators begin to enumerate rules in order to address specific symptoms. These rules plug leaks, but don't address the cause and tend to create a lot of collateral damage among posters who are good actors. This ends up looking like over-moderating, but it's actually just over-compensating. It's really reflective of a different kind of moderating failure, generally, one made earlier involving a different situation and, usually, grossly under-moderating it or a different poster.

    You object to the abstract, but this entire situation exists in what you call the "abstract." It's all about tone and tenor and how people generally treat each other on the board. Vnzla getting banned has seemed to be a long time coming, but it seems to me it was always going to be something like this. For me, vnzla's actually banworthy crime was being an unrelenting gaping *** hole for the better part of the last five years. For others, the fact that he's been the same gaping *** hole for the better part of five years without being banned means that he shouldn't be banned at all.

    This type of banning makes people uncomfortable, because there isn't anything to tie it up all nice and neat. Also, It touches heavily on what kind of forum this will be. For things like, it feels like there should be very detailed rules that everybody understands.

    However, that's not how it really works. There aren't detailed rules...there's really just one, and everybody understands it...Don't be a dick.

    Now, that doesn't mean that everyone has to be endlessly polite. It doesn't mean things can't ever get heated, or that people won't be frustrated. It doesn't mean everyone will have exactly the same definition. It does, however, mean that if you want to participate in a forum, you have to respect the differences and make a good faith effort to be a good actor in the community. It means that people have to understand that this is a conversation...not a test...not negotiating peace in the Middle East. People have to recognize that being wrong isn't the end of the world, and more important than anything else, being right doesn't make it OK to be a complete jackass.

    cdash, you and I have interacted with each other for years, both here and on RealGM. We weren't friends, but we have gotten along reasonably well for most of that time. This is true, despite the fact we have very different posting styles and very different tastes in terms of the type of interaction we enjoy. The reason it can work, is that we respect the differences and do not create situations to lead to problems.

    This is something vnzla never even attempted to do. You, personally, decided to not let the treatment vnzla gave you bother you. However, that seems like a lot to ask of people who are just wanting to talk about their favorite team. Most of us have a sense of when we go over the line into being actually offensive. Most of us understand how our words will be taken. Most of us are capable of understanding who we are having exchange with, and when barbs would be good-natured banter and when it's just mean-spirited baiting. Vnzla did not - would not - acknowledge any of that, because to him, only he mattered.

    And for all of those reasons and more, vnzla richly deserved to be shown the door.

    But, that doesn't mean the situation was well-moderated, or that the mods don't have to get their house in better order. It just means Hicks isn't the bad guy, here. Hicks is taking the brunt of the abuse, because he was the guy stuck holding the bag for Peck, Shade, and the other mods who did little or nothing while the situation continued to deteriorate. Really, there is no universe in which vnzla is an innocent and Hicks a power-hungry ogre.

    The board can get stronger here, by the board recognizing why vnzla had to go, and by the moderators recognizing where they let this get away from them. It can get worse, too, but not for lack of vnzla.

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