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Thread: Vnzla81

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    When I was 25, I thought the same way. Things change when you have a kid, and he says that.
    You can't ignore your kid in real life. You can ignore someone on an internet message board.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    The admins can't though.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    The admins can't though.
    I'm pretty sure that the admins can ignore a "heart and soul" post about David West. Posters have made comments like that throughout the history of Pacers Digest, but only recently have they been "infraction worthy".

    Do admins need to step in if posters are going too far and insulting other posters? Absolutely. Do they need to give "infractions" for stuff like vnzla's David West comment? Well, to use your parenting analogy, that would be like grounding your kid because he didn't adequately clean his dinner plate.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    So what exactly did he say behind closed doors that was so egregious that you immediately banned him on the spot?
    Private messages are going to stay private, but what you really want to know is whether or not you would think it was 'bad enough' to warrant a ban. Suffice it to say that you would not have considered it to 'be that bad'. And that would not be the point. I feel that I've explained why it's not the point, and I also feel that I've explained what the point actually is. This was banishment by attrition. I don't know what else to tell you that I haven't already.

    Obviously the way things are handled here isn't always going to happen the way some of you feel it should be done, but that's true of every forum, so at some point it just is what it is, guys. It brings me no pleasure to know it upset or bothered a couple of you, but I have to do what I think is right, and I did.

    I've explained this above and beyond what most admins would normally do (here, or on other forums I'm familiar with), and I don't think there's anything left to say about it.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I understand Sollozzo's point that is getting lost here.... What was so wrong with the heart and soul post that it rated an infraction? There is no behind the scenes exchange if that post doesn't rate an infraction.

    Or IOW... If that was going to rate an infraction then it was going to be impossible for Vnzla to post here because it would be impossible to self-censor yourself to that degree and there's just no way the goal posts could be consistent. I'm just struggling to see how that post was detrimental to the forum in any way shape or form. It really does no good to talk about other posts or the PM's that followed because what matters is why that post was deemed to be infraction-worthy. That post was the one that got the infraction.

    To me it seems like an over-reaction of a moderator led to an over-reaction of the forumite. And no good was going to come of that. But without the first step, we don't get to the second step.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Private messages are going to stay private, but what you really want to know is whether or not you would think it was 'bad enough' to warrant a ban. Suffice it to say that you would not have considered it to 'be that bad'. And that would not be the point. I feel that I've explained why it's not the point, and I also feel that I've explained what the point actually is. This was banishment by attrition. I don't know what else to tell you that I haven't already.

    Obviously the way things are handled here isn't always going to happen the way some of you feel it should be done, but that's true of every forum, so at some point it just is what it is, guys. It brings me no pleasure to know it upset or bothered a couple of you, but I have to do what I think is right, and I did.

    I've explained this above and beyond what most admins would normally do (here, or on other forums I'm familiar with), and I don't think there's anything left to say about it.

    It just sounds like he slapped you a little bit in private messages. But instead of slapping him back or walking away, you pulled out your moderator machine gun and executed him on the spot. Now you're trying to claim self defense, but it's hard for me to buy it when the evidence is under lock and key.

    But this tells me a lot: but what you really want to know is whether or not you would think it was 'bad enough' to warrant a ban. Suffice it to say that you would not have considered it to 'be that bad'.

    If what he did was really bad, you'd be at least a little more descriptive about it and let me know.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If what he did was really bad, you'd be at least a little more descriptive about it and let me know.
    Hicks has gone WELL above and beyond what he has to share with users regarding internal matters (which to be honest, he didn't have to share a damn thing).
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Hicks has gone WELL above and beyond what he has to share with users regarding internal matters (which to be honest, he didn't have to share a damn thing).

    And why is he going above and beyond? It's because a poster liked by a decent amount of people was offed behind the scenes under some circumstances that appear shady to the naked eye. There wasn't some big public meltdown in which vnzla was insulting a bunch of posters or anything like that. He instead makes a "heart and soul" comment about David West and then is GONE FOR GOOD, seemingly out of nowhere.

    I know that Hicks is the one with the power and that he doesn't owe us anything on "internal matters", but I think the reason he chose to respond in this thread is because he is trying to justify something that looks extremely shady. If it was all out there in the open, like with Olblu, then there would be nothing to talk about.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-11-2014 at 01:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I don't think Hicks should share PM's or parts of them without Vnzla's permission (IMHO). So I'm fine with that. We can safely assume they were two guys entrenched in their positions and both pizzed off by the time this PM exchange took place.

    The question mark is still why the heart and soul post was bad in the first place to lead to the infraction and then the PM's where both people got pizzed.

    If someone complained about the post that might be one thing (though I don't really see anything to complain about myself and that's not been mentioned as an issue), but I just don't see how a mod reads that post and hands out an infraction. It just seems way, way, way too far from the line to have been an issue. Which is then why Vnzla would get pizzed off to get an infraction for that.

    It's like the cop that has a problem with his neighbor so he pulls him over because he didn't signal for a turn exactly 250' before he turned (even though several other drivers did the same or never signaled at all), and then when the guy complains to him about it he gets tazed and arrested for disorderly conduct.

    You don't get to the second point without the questionable decision by TPTB at the first point.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Note: I'm not questioning the decision or the process... I'm just explaining how it looks from the outside looking in. If I'm wrong then ignore it or explain it better or whatever feels right. OTOH, if there's something of use in seeing this thru someone else's POV then hopefully this discussion helps.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The question mark is still why the heart and soul post was bad in the first place to lead to the infraction and then the PM's where both people got pizzed.
    Can't quote a closed thread, so I copied and pasted.
    Rule #1

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    "Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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    In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
    So basically, Rule 1's examples were exactly Vnzla's posting style. I bet some of those examples were either quoted him verbatim or he was the inspiration for a few.


    I don't understand how he hoodhinked you guys. You might have shared some basic opinions on some level, but your style of presenting your opinions are polar opposite of his.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-11-2014 at 02:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I think the problem is that it is being approached as if this came out of the blue like nothing had happened before and suddenly the thunderbolt hit.

    I can assure you that is not the case. I have the make-up work hours to show for the huge amounts of time I've spent in long and detailed conversation trying to explain why other people were having problems with post. Those were private, as they should be, and would be how we treat admin conversations with any poster.

    I know other admins (and non-admins) have done the same. We've ridden herd (also in private) on those who attacked him as well, including one another because we were also aware we weren't setting a good example. All of this to try to prevent the constant thread derailments and sniping that took place.

    It makes it very difficult to not feel insulted by the idea that people think this was an off-the-cuff action motivated solely by malice engendered by a single silly issue.

    Being an admin here is not easy, and none of us get anything out of it - in fact, it costs able money - but we do it because we care about this community of fans. We know we're not perfect and that we make mistakes. The worst disrespect we can get is the insinuation that it's all done just for a power trip of some kind.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I always appreciated how Vnzla was Johnny on the Spot in posting new tweets and relevant NBA articles.
    I agree. I always appreciated these posts.

    Too bad that that he made a lot more of those other posts, though
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I do not have a dog in this fight (perhaps because I have stayed away from the Pacers board for the most part) but I do want to chime in briefly. First let me say if you go back far enough (and maybe google still has my "I retire" "I am done with this site" posts from back in like 05 or 06) you can see I often do not agree with many of the moderation decisions on this site. I wish I had handled it better back then, but I also think others could have handled things better. Regardless, the past is the past.

    With that said, I would like to comment on a few thing using other sites (and a big Washington Pro football franchise board, extremeskins.com, which is actually owned by the Washington Pro Football franchise)

    - I have literally seen folks banned, permanently, for not following proper formatting of titles. Normally the accepted format is SOURCE: BRIEF TITLE and then a brief snip (one or two paras max). I have legit seen people banned for posting a whole article.

    - If things go off topic, I have seen mods come in and say "stop". The next person not to, regardless of 10 seconds or 30 minutes, gets a ban

    - With the exception of one Madden board I used to frequent back in high school (so almost 10-15 years ago), I have never seen mods come in and explain why a decision was made.

    Now without inserting my foot in my mouth, I can understand people get angry. And I have even seen other sites come out and admit to hidden forums, hidden chat rooms, and I think one site even had a hidden group (before facebook, some small chat setup) for the first like 100 members before EA came in and bought the fan site and it grew to be huge. I understood why these issues were addressed, but I was also kind of surprised to see them addressed. That said, I actually think it was awesome (and maybe awesome is a bad word) because in the past I have felt admins acted with emotion in my situations and were not willing to hear my out. So I respect the fact he gave an explanation, although I think that may have opened up another can of worms in and of itself

    TL/DR: I do not know enough here, and I doubt I ever will, but sometimes you have to look at the big picture. And while I certainly agree that the comment seems rather tame, I also think its important to remember that you have to keep the whole situation in perspective.

    Of course, I say all of this and I think the other thing important to remember is it is hard to read emotions on the internet.

    I do not know if it will ever happen, but I think a cool thing would be if we ever get to the point where we have video messages left instead of text messages. Because then instead of someone getting upset at a comment that says "You are an idiot! We overpaid for player X" you could see that really what they said was "haha, your an idiot. We overpaid for player X (while laughing and being merry about it)".

    Then again, I probably am dreaming a bit (if for nothing else bandwidth reasons)

    Just my .02
    Last edited by vapacersfan; 01-11-2014 at 03:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I say this as nicely as possible: Why should he have given you any respect for giving him an infraction to this post?

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    I've read multiple sports message boards over the years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that this is the only place where such a tame post would get an infraction.
    I'll have to disagree with it. The "heart and soul" part was obviously ironic and given the poster's history it could easily be considered as baiting.

    Recently, I became a moderator on a board that has much stricter rules than PD has and I can definitely say that a comment in this vain could definitely earn an infraction over there as well. So, this really isn't the only place.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I understand Sollozzo's point that is getting lost here.... What was so wrong with the heart and soul post that it rated an infraction?
    I think that the fact that this post was preceded by several other posts in the past few days that deserved an infraction but didn't got one was the reason that this particular post got it.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'll have to disagree with it. The "heart and soul" part was obviously ironic and given the poster's history it could easily be considered as baiting.

    Recently, I became a moderator on a board that has much stricter rules than PD has and I can definitely say that a comment in this vain could definitely earn an infraction over there as well. So, this really isn't the only place.
    What's baiting about it? It was in the heat of a game thread when the Pacers were getting waxed and West had another single digit scoring night. Often people (such as myself) say that West's intangibles make him worth his contract, but vnzla was simply pointing out that those intangibles weren't worth that much against the Hawks. It was just a heat of the moment sarcastic remark, the likes of which have been made a billion times on this forum.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What's baiting about it? It was in the heat of a game thread when the Pacers were getting waxed and West had another single digit scoring night. Often people (such as myself) say that West's intangibles make him worth his contract, but vnzla was simply pointing out that those intangibles weren't worth that much against the Hawks. It was just a heat of the moment sarcastic remark, the likes of which have been made a billion times on this forum.
    If one of us went into a Heat board after the Knicks game and said "another 6 and 9 and a lot of heart and soul by Chris Bosh" then I can guarantee you that he would receive an infraction.

    I'm currently moderating a general NBA board and even though I'm very lenient personally and I have not given out an infraction yet (only PM warnings so far) I can definitely see several other mods consider it baiting and thus giving an infraction.

    PD is really lenient if you take into account some of the rules that other sites enforce.
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  33. #44
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I think some of you are still failing to realize that vnzwla has a history of doing things like this, and so therefore he's not going to get much slack. Everyone should realize that.

    If I had his history I would be very tame with anything I did after I was given so much slack and slaps on the wrists and second chances. Granted, he did tame it down a tad, but going into a game thread, and which I REALIZE, there is going to be a lot of comments during a loss or close game that are probably not really what the posters mean, I think we are all guilty of that, and that's fine. It's fine.

    But, if I have a history of being suspended and banned, generally annoying a large percentage of the board with comment after comment like that. "Ha remember when you guys thought Danny was going to be starting? LOL LOL LOL LOL" Which is just mocking people for their opinions and clearly against the rules, I might add, if I don't want to risk getting an infraction or something, I'm probably going to avoid posting a lot of the heat of the moment stuff like that.

    I've EARNED my reputation and I think the only way to get some slack back is probably to be on my best behavior.

    Hell, I've generally avoided posting in the Pacers board because it really did just turn into posters mocking each other for different opinions. "LOL U THOUGHT NETS WERE GONNA BE GOOD. IDIOT" Stuff like that.

    I've just stayed in the Colts board and other boards.

    With all that being said, we probably have it too good here, with what va just posted about the Redskins forums. On those forums you probably wouldn't even get your chance to complain because you're banned instantly. I know about how bad the official Colts.com forum is. You basically aren't allowed to say anything negative about the team. Even if it's warranted and you're just offering your opinions. Yet, some want to basically say Hicks is drunk with power.

    He's on here explaining why something was done, repeatedly and repeatedly, while being somewhat disrespected during all of it.

    I'd be pretty pissed off if I were him.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What's baiting about it? It was in the heat of a game thread when the Pacers were getting waxed and West had another single digit scoring night. Often people (such as myself) say that West's intangibles make him worth his contract, but vnzla was simply pointing out that those intangibles weren't worth that much against the Hawks. It was just a heat of the moment sarcastic remark, the likes of which have been made a billion times on this forum.
    I would have to go back to make specific analysis, which I am not going to be able to do while just on my phone, but I recall that being the third or fourth time he had beat that phrase in the threads that day. Never mind that it isn't a comment about DWest as much as it is a slam on people who think he has intangibles, it was a "let me keep making the same dig over and over again" move. While some people are fine with that, others (not just Hicks or admins) have asked that it stop.

    We're trying to get to a place where we start to respect each other a little more rather than have the forum become a place where making repeated digs at people holding a different opinion is the norm. There may be disagreement with how the admins are trying to do that, but it should be borne in mind that PD was founded because the Star forum had basically degenerated into bullying by the loudest and most frequent posters along with troll bombings that make the troll accusations that float around here seem particularly silly - all with either no moderation or sudden bursts of everyone being slapped with infractions no matter their involvement.

    It's not easy, and the admins have LONG private conversations, but ultimately it IS privately run rather than public property. It may not seem like we're listening, especially when we've already talked so many of these things to death internally and so get defensive at the idea that it's all abitrary. Please understand we're trying to figure out how to allow leeway and yet make sure this is a place where every level of fan participation is respected AS LONG AS IT RESPECTS OTHER PEOPLE. Our lines are not going to match everyone's, but we really are trying to err on the side of long leashes - which, I suppose, is why when something like this happens it seems like such a surprise.

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  37. #46
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I think that the fact that this post was preceded by several other posts in the past few days that deserved an infraction but didn't got one was the reason that this particular post got it.
    So, it was a make up call?

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    So, it was a make up call?


    Since we're not professionals we don't HAVE to get it right the first time.

    Um, right?



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  41. #48
    RING THE BELL! Sandman21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    So, it was a make up call?
    I dont care who you are, thats funny right there.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    I dont care who you are, thats funny right there.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think Hicks should share PM's or parts of them without Vnzla's permission (IMHO). So I'm fine with that. We can safely assume they were two guys entrenched in their positions and both pizzed off by the time this PM exchange took place.
    I agree that he can't just copy and paste the PM's. But IMHO, it's pretty telling that he's being so vague about them. If v had cursed him out or lobbed some ridiculous personal insults at him, then I have a feeling that Hicks would have said as much by now. But instead he's being very vague, and even said that I would have considered it to be "not that bad".

    Sounds to me like v mouthed off a little bit and Hicks snapped by banning him on the spot to make a point. Maybe it's not fair for me to think that, but that's the way I see it until I see evidence to the contrary.

    The fact that people are trying to seriously spin that David West comment as trolling tells me just how biased people are against the guy.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-11-2014 at 05:57 PM.

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