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Thread: Vnzla81

  1. #51
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I think you don't realize that even paraphrasing what was said would be inappropriate when he isn't around. It's also nobody's business but the admins' and vnzla's. If you choose to believe in spite of the long history of PD that Hicks is the kind of person to just ban people for spite simply because he won't share private conversations in whole or in part, so be it. I think it is extremely unfair, but I guess I would of course think so as one of the admins.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The fact that people are trying to seriously spin that David West comment as trolling tells me just how biased people are against the guy.
    I'm not trying to spin anything, my friend. I don't want vnzla banned.

    I'm just clarifying that this sort of post would easily be reported and/or receive an infraction in another forum. It would certainly receive an infraction in the forum that I'm moderating and I wouldn't be the one who would give that infraction.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I think you don't realize that even paraphrasing what was said would be inappropriate when he isn't around. It's also nobody's business but the admins' and vnzla's. If you choose to believe in spite of the long history of PD that Hicks is the kind of person to just ban people for spite simply because he won't share private conversations in whole or in part, so be it. I think it is extremely unfair, but I guess I would of course think so as one of the admins.

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    I'm just saying that this is by far the most shady thing I've ever seen since joining PD, and I've been here since the beginning as my join date indicates. I can't change how I feel, and after looking at the cards that have been laid on the table, I feel that this was done in a spiteful vengeful manner because of an inherent dislike of a particular poster.

    I get that Hicks can't copy the PM or even paraphrase it. But he did say that I likely would have found it to be "not that bad". That tells me right there that vnzla likely wasn't cussing him out or lobbing extremely offensive insults at him that could objectively be looked at as ban worthy.

    But whatever, it is what it is. I'm not going to change any minds, and no one has going to change my mind in light of the cards that have currently been laid on the table. I will never respect the decision and the way it was handled. Fair? Maybe, maybe not, but I can't change the way I feel about it.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-11-2014 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If one of us went into a Heat board after the Knicks game and said "another 6 and 9 and a lot of heart and soul by Chris Bosh" then I can guarantee you that he would receive an infraction.

    I'm currently moderating a general NBA board and even though I'm very lenient personally and I have not given out an infraction yet (only PM warnings so far) I can definitely see several other mods consider it baiting and thus giving an infraction.

    PD is really lenient if you take into account some of the rules that other sites enforce.

    Yes, if I went to a Heat forum as a Pacer fan and starting mocking Chris Bosh, then yes I would likely be reported. But there is a certain message board unwritten rule that it's OK for fans of a team to criticize their own players, while it would be considered in bad form to trash another team's players on that team's message board.

    For example, virtually everyone here used to complain about the Murphy and Dunleavy contracts. We were people who wanted to see the Pacers improve. But if some fans from another team would have come here and started mocking the Pacers for trading for those guys, then yeah, that would have been in bad form and likely would have led to a ban.

    V is a Pacer fan who was never wild about West. He thinks that his "heart and soul" stuff is overrated. I disagree with him because I am a huge West fan, but I see no trouble with what he is saying.

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  8. #55
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I'm sure he deserved banned after so many times walking the tightrope and poking the bears...and after many PM's. I believe that without the need to see a thing. I would also have to say it's not my business. I don't spend the time to moderate and I'm fortunate someone does. V, as much as I appreciated some of his posts, he was fortunate to have survived that long. So I agree with Hicks on all of that.

    But my honest impression, without even seeing this thread or any posts since he was banned, was that the loss to the Hawks pushed things over the edge. That and V kept on ripping on Granger and now that Lance doesn't play it's pretty obvious that Lance's presence is critical and Granger didn't seem to come close to helping. V would have rubbed faces in that and kept doing it over and over for days.

  9. #56
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I still keep coming back to the same point... What was so bad about the heart and soul comment to lead to all of this?

    Everybody keeps addressing other aspects and talking about history, etc... but really... all that matters is how did that one post spiral into all of this?

    The best explanation actually seems to be the joke that was posted that it was a makeup call.

    It still seems to play like that police analogy I posted earlier. You have a policeman for a neighbor. One day you cut down a tree because it's dropping sap on your car in the driveway. The policeman flies off the handle because he liked the shade from the tree and disputes it was on your property in the first place. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, the tree is now gone. Your dog gets loose and tears into his trash. He tells you if he sees your dog again he will shoot it while you are trying to apologize so it escalates into an argument that settles nothing. He forbids his family from associating with yours and then finds out his daughter is seeing your son.

    He follows you a few times but you're driving is perfect so nothing happens. Then one day you don't use your turn signal as soon as he thinks you should. So he pulls you over even though plenty of other people signaled even later and some didn't signal at all. So when you complain and argue the point that you shouldn't have been pulled over in the first place and he singled you out because he has a personal problem with you, his answer is to accuse you of disorderly conduct. When you protest, turn away and bang your fist on your own hood in frustration he tazes you and then arrests you for disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

    So, at the end of all of that you did act in a disorderly fashion and resist arrest. But because of the past history this policeman had lost his objectivity and had it in for you and was looking for any reason to ticket and/or arrest you. He thinks it's deserved and you had it coming and he would've busted you sooner if he'd had the chance. This was his chance.

    That is how this situation feels when the post in question is so innocuous yet started this whole 'beginning of the end' process.
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  11. #57
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    V is a Pacer fan who was never wild about West. He thinks that his "heart and soul" stuff is overrated. I disagree with him because I am a huge West fan, but I see no trouble with what he is saying.
    That's the funny thing... I agree with you and totally disagree with him on this point too! That's partly why I don't see the problem with the post. I'm a West fan and am a person that thinks professionalism and chemistry are very important. And I can easily overlook Vnzla being on the opposite side of that issue.
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  13. #58
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I normally agree with both of you guys...and I understand you might want an explanation...but I figure he's earned it from so many instances of being annoying. He was like a fly. In most dictatorships, he wouldn't have survived a fraction of the time. I don't think the admins are saying anything other than it was time. No particular post was the tipping point.

    It was like drinking 72 shots of schnapps. Which one of them made you drunk? Who knows? It doesn't matter because it's clear you are wasted.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Bball, the problem with your analogy is thay you use the phrasing implying you were sorry for the things happening to the policeman. The reality is more like you told the policeman he was stupid for liking the shade and that it was his fault for having trash in the first place.

    At some point, and meaning no disrespect at all, we have to point back to the history of PD and ask why it means a decision you disagree with has to be interpreted as a conspiracy against a perfectly innocent forum member. That kind of implication of complete and utter unethical behavior is what really hurts in all of this.

    And no one was forbidding anyone from anything. An infraction is one point that goes away after time. Infractions have even been rescinded on logical discussion. Logical discussion did not happen.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I still keep coming back to the same point... What was so bad about the heart and soul comment to lead to all of this?
    Because it's was meant to mock those who think West is the heart and soul of the team. You guys are smart enough to know the intent of his sarcasm.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Because it's was meant to mock those who think West is the heart and soul of the team. You guys are smart enough to know the intent of his sarcasm.
    I understand it was sarcasm. I just don't see how it was 'fightin' words'. It looks like a mighty low bar.

    This just seems like one of those things where I don't think I'm going to be convinced emotion didn't overrule logic and that led to a quick overreaction which got us to this point. If Vnzla was 'bound to get banned' sooner or later (so to speak, as some have implied here) then surely there would be a better place to pick that fight yet to come than this rather pedestrian throw away comment.

    But you can't please everyone. Anyway, it's a good discussion to put this out in the open and hear from some of the mods. I wish others would chime in as well just to get a more complete picture.

    Sometimes I wonder if Able ever thinks about pulling the plug on hosting and just leaving this type of thing behind.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Considering V is really the only poster that really has that reputation right now, it's a high enough bar for only one person to continually bash their head against it.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Hicks you are the most politically correct and generally patient admins I have ever seen on a forum, so while I can see the point that that post in and of itself wasn't particularly egregious, I can also see that he has been a problem for you for a very long time.

    I went from disliking him a lot to finding him a bit funny, but I understand that you can't allow someone to run a muck all over your board and continually try to make your posters feel stupid.

    No poster is perfect, and all have bad moments, including myself and we have had our own private conversations about that, but when I receive a warning from you I know that I have done something wrong and I try to amend that.

    I support your decision 100% (though really that doesn't mean much does it? xD) as you said you have made multiple efforts to reform him and it has not worked.
    Last edited by khaos01207; 01-12-2014 at 03:18 AM.
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  25. #64
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    If any other poster had posted the comment that led to vnzla's infraction and subsequent ban, would it have earned an infraction? Literally--ANY other member of this board. Would any moderator besides Hicks have given vnzla or--literally--anyone else an infraction for that post? And yes I know the history and the backstory and the "I farted daddy" analogies but let's try to break this down from the abstract into the simplest terms possible. If Hicks didn't have a personal problem with vnzla, would these 64 posts worth of discussion have happened? That was only quasi-rhetorical.
    Last edited by cdash; 01-12-2014 at 04:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I despise vague sarcastic one-liners...
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    I despise vague sarcastic one-liners...
    I despise you. Eh
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  30. #67
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I'll miss V's contributions to the forum. But at the same time, he's clearly been a problem for some time. Not entirely his own fault I think that he rubs so many people the wrong way, but refusing to play nice with admins is never a winning strategy. It's too bad because I thought V was turning the corner after he got suspended, but it looks like the leopard just can't change his spots.

    I have no opinion on whether the latest incident was really worthy of banning or not. But as BillS says, the admins here (Hicks, et al) have a long, long history of showing tolerance and should have at least earned the benefit of the doubt in forum members' eyes. Accusing Hicks of abusing his power because of a personal vendetta is too far out for me.

    The good news I guess is that if anyone here wants to continue interacting with V, it's easy enough to do it on twitter.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I would have to go back to make specific analysis, which I am not going to be able to do while just on my phone, but I recall that being the third or fourth time he had beat that phrase in the threads that day. Never mind that it isn't a comment about DWest as much as it is a slam on people who think he has intangibles, it was a "let me keep making the same dig over and over again" move. While some people are fine with that, others (not just Hicks or admins) have asked that it stop.

    We're trying to get to a place where we start to respect each other a little more rather than have the forum become a place where making repeated digs at people holding a different opinion is the norm. There may be disagreement with how the admins are trying to do that, but it should be borne in mind that PD was founded because the Star forum had basically degenerated into bullying by the loudest and most frequent posters along with troll bombings that make the troll accusations that float around here seem particularly silly - all with either no moderation or sudden bursts of everyone being slapped with infractions no matter their involvement.

    It's not easy, and the admins have LONG private conversations, but ultimately it IS privately run rather than public property. It may not seem like we're listening, especially when we've already talked so many of these things to death internally and so get defensive at the idea that it's all abitrary. Please understand we're trying to figure out how to allow leeway and yet make sure this is a place where every level of fan participation is respected AS LONG AS IT RESPECTS OTHER PEOPLE. Our lines are not going to match everyone's, but we really are trying to err on the side of long leashes - which, I suppose, is why when something like this happens it seems like such a surprise.

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    Bill, did Hicks give you an infraction for this?

    There are times I think some people won't be happy until we have a big public burning of the Fieldhouse, with everyone cheering that those drains on the public coffers have finally been destroyed and rejoicing in the economic boost that the new parking lot will bring. Maybe a video of everyone singing "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" as the flames spread to Circle Centre, casting a beautiful glow on Lucas Oil Stadium, would go viral.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...=1#post1764723

    Now, you don't have to defend this post to me. I enjoy sarcasm and thought what you said was pretty funny. But technically speaking, it was a sarcastic mocking of the post I made in that thread, was it not? It's just amazing to me how vnzla's "heart and soul" post was infraction worthy, but I could literally go through every other member's posts and find multiple posts that are 1000 times more mocking than that.

    I would have a lot more respect for the justification of this if the mods could just admit that v got an infraction because he is v. Literally every other poster on the board would have gotten away with that "heart and soul" comment. That's why some of us feel that this was a vendetta-driven witch hunt.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-12-2014 at 12:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Bill has Vnzla's posting reputation now?

    Hicks HAS admitted V got the infraction because its V. When you're constantly causing problems, your leash s shorter. Seriously this is hard to figure out? What does him being banned matter to you anyways? Not like you're being silenced or they have a naughty list and you're next.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-12-2014 at 12:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bill has Vnzla's posting reputation now?
    So if you have a good reputation, you can have a paragraph's worth of sarcasm.......but if you have a bad reputation, you get an infraction for a one liner that would no doubt be considered tame if it were made by any other poster?

    Didn't realize it said that in the rules. But it does look like we're getting closer to admitting that there are different rules for different posters. I do think it's clear that vnzla was at the point where him simply giving his opinion was going to be considered infraction-worthy.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bill has Vnzla's posting reputation now?

    Hicks HAS admitted V got the infraction because its V. When you're constantly causing problems, your leash s shorter. Seriously this is hard to figure out? What does him being banned matter to you anyways? Not like you're being silenced or they have a naughty list and you're next.
    A shorter leash to the point where he basically couldn't give his opinion any longer. A leash so short that he got an infraction for a tame one line post that would be glossed over if it were literally any other poster. When you start basically making up new rules for a specific poster, then it crosses into vendetta territory.

    Why does it matter to me? I liked the guy and enjoyed talking with him. I'm not saying that he was perfect, but I do feel that he was definitely done wrong here.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    If any other poster had posted the comment that led to vnzla's infraction and subsequent ban, would it have earned an infraction? Literally--ANY other member of this board. Would any moderator besides Hicks have given vnzla or--literally--anyone else an infraction for that post? And yes I know the history and the backstory and the "I farted daddy" analogies but let's try to break this down from the abstract into the simplest terms possible. If Hicks didn't have a personal problem with vnzla, would these 64 posts worth of discussion have happened? That was only quasi-rhetorical.
    In this board? Probably not. PacersDigest is more lenient than most sites I have been through.

    In most other boards? Probably yes.

    In the board that I'm moderating? Absolutely. I woudn't give an infraction but half of the mods that I know would consider it baiting and a warning would be sent at the very least.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    A shorter leash to the point where he basically couldn't give his opinion any longer.
    He could freely give his opinion. But this comment wasn't his opinion. That's the point. V preferred to mock other people's opinions instead of giving out his own.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yes, if I went to a Heat forum as a Pacer fan and starting mocking Chris Bosh, then yes I would likely be reported. But there is a certain message board unwritten rule that it's OK for fans of a team to criticize their own players, while it would be considered in bad form to trash another team's players on that team's message board.

    For example, virtually everyone here used to complain about the Murphy and Dunleavy contracts. We were people who wanted to see the Pacers improve. But if some fans from another team would have come here and started mocking the Pacers for trading for those guys, then yeah, that would have been in bad form and likely would have led to a ban.

    V is a Pacer fan who was never wild about West. He thinks that his "heart and soul" stuff is overrated. I disagree with him because I am a huge West fan, but I see no trouble with what he is saying.
    The Murphy and Dunleavy examples are not that relevant because those guys weren't helping the Pacers win. David West, on the other hand, helps us at winning.

    A comment varies based on who player it is referring.

    If someone is calling JR Smith a chucker in a public forum then I doubt that anyone says anything. JR is obviously a chucker and has deserved that reputation and thus no one would consider it baiting.

    However, if you call Kevin Durant a chucker then that would certainly be an attempt to bait OKC fans. Why? Because Durant is not a chucker and your statement is obviously false. Therefore, the only reason to make a false accusation publicly would be to bait fains of said team.

    That's why V's comment was considered baiting.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  43. #75
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I get that Hicks can't copy the PM or even paraphrase it. But he did say that I likely would have found it to be "not that bad". That tells me right there that vnzla likely wasn't cussing him out or lobbing extremely offensive insults at him that could objectively be looked at as ban worthy.
    My friend, it's well known that you like conversing with Vnzla. You have been one of his biggest supporters in this forum for as long as I have been here. Personally, I cannot think of anything that Vnzla could post and that you'd find it to be "bad enough" in order to lead to a ban.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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