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    Default Vnzla81

    His profile says he is banned. What happened?

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/member.php?10562-vnzla81

    His last post said:

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    Surely to God he wouldn't get banned for something that tame.........


    Can those of us who enjoyed interacting with him get an explanation as to why he just vanished into thin air like Jimmy Hoffa?

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    No, that post is not why he's out. That post received an infraction, which did not even cause a temporary suspension (more infractions would be required to do that), as infractions are the standard 'warning' now on PD. This post was to be addressed and then ignored to then move on. It was not the point, save for technically being one of the 'straws' on the camel's back in the bigger picture, if you want to look at it that way.

    The point is this: He's been pushing buttons, pushing the limits, over and over and over again on this forum for years. He'd received infractions, he's received temporary suspensions, and while most probably are not aware of it, he's received DOZENS AND DOZENS of private conversations, from a handful of different admins, over literally years of time, trying to dialog with him, to reason with him, to explain our point of view with him, and to try to work with him to find a middle ground so that he could stay a part of the forum in a way that wasn't driving tons of people (often including many admins, and certainly a lot of members as well) nuts with his attitude/behavior, and quite frankly, it was met with a bad attitude, with sarcasm, with no accountability, with blaming everyone but himself, with unfairly characterizing others (members and admins alike), to mocking others, provoking others, and otherwise basically hammering the board with nonsense mixed in with some actual good content as well.

    Quite frankly, he was a master of walking the tight rope of being enough of a nuisance to stir things up repeatedly with many, while often managing to just-not-quite-go too far too often to get banned, but after the 2059283059285th round of his bad attitude, enough was finally enough.

    What was that, you may be wondering? I'll tell you what. In response to the above infraction, obviously he disagreed with it, and that's fair enough. However, this time he couldn't just leave it at that. Now, keep in mind, he has been made aware for months now that he was already considered to be on thin ice, and it has been articulated in painstaking detail to him numerous times in private why that is, and you best believe his attitude is a part of that, and he knew this. That having been said, this time he chose to not just disagree with a decision (which again is fair enough in and of itself), but he also chose insult me, to insult the forum/site as a whole, and when I called him on it, he just laughed and doubled-down on both insults.

    I'm sorry, but after all the time, effort, second (third, fourth, fifth, sixth, sevenths, etc., etc.) chances, all of the dialog, making sure to be fair and go after people who just wanted to provoke him or bust his balls or insult him, to putting up with his crap over and over again in general, and quite frankly him never sounding very grateful for any of our efforts and usually just putting us and others down whenever it was convenient, after all the damn time and chances he has gotten, at some point you can only poke the bear so many times before your arm gets ripped off. Enough was finally enough. He got enough rope to hang himself 10 times over in the past few years. He got a LOT, a LOT more slack and patience than posters in years past have received when it comes to making or not making this decision, and he finally pushed too many times. He's out. Enough pebbles, rocks, stones, and boulders eventually added up to the weight of a mountain. Especially when there is never remorse, never accountability, never any ownership, paired with the insults, the mockery, etc.

    You have no idea how long this has been going on in private, how much behind-the-scenes have been involved, over months and years, literally years, and how much time, thought, effort, conversation, not just between him and several admins but between the admins with one another along the way in regards to him, has been put into trying to make it work. You really don't.

    I don't expect those who enjoyed him to like it, I understand they won't, but it is what it is. I've explained my perspective, God knows I've had similar talks in private a million times with other admins as well, and this stupid dance had to eventually end sometime if the attitude/behavior didn't adjust, and it never ultimately did. In his twisted mind, he's totally right, we're totally wrong, and it's everyone else's fault but his, always and forever, and "LOL" if you suggest otherwise. This went on far longer than it ever really had any business going. Sometimes it's not about doing one particularly bad thing. Sometimes it's just too many smaller and moderate things for too long before you finally are told 'no more'. He got more rope than anyone in the 10+ year history of Pacers Digest ever got. He blew it.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I guess you guys know best and drive the sort of topic and discussions you want on PD, but I'll miss the guy. I have butted heads with him several times over the years but just came to accept that was just how he is and I learned to handle him accordingly (aka not get offended by his pokes directed my way).

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I've never had a problem with Vnzla81 but I suspect you have to look outside the box. If a fan of another team came into PD and just constantly put down Pacer players would we as a group accept that? Shoot Kstat and Shags are Piston supporters, Robertmto is a Wizards guy, and DisplayedKnick (of course doesn't post much) don't even come here to constantly tear into the Pacer players. We all get ticked at times on how the guys are playing, but only a few PD posters seem to get delight from Pacer player failures. Personally you don't have to be constantly rah rah, but to almost wish for your team (players) to fail is not what I consider a good trait.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I always appreciated how Vnzla was Johnny on the Spot in posting new tweets and relevant NBA articles.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I always appreciated how Vnzla was Johnny on the Spot in posting new tweets and relevant NBA articles.
    I agree. I always appreciated these posts.

    Too bad that that he made a lot more of those other posts, though
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    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I agree. I always appreciated these posts.

    Too bad that that he made a lot more of those other posts, though
    This is disingenuous. (In my opinion) you were one of the main people who provoked vnzla and advocated for his banning. It's not a surprise that you two didn't get along--vnzla was almost as irrationally negative as you are irrationally positive, but the spare me the crocodile tears.

    I've been around for a while, reading well before I signed up, and (in my opinion) Hicks has gotten a lot more rational and tolerant as a mod over the years, but I think it was a bad move to ban vnzla and I hope it can be reversed. He was a good counter-balance to the sunshine pumpers, had an OK sense of humor, and brought a lot to the board. If people who "couldn't stand him" used the ignore list as much as they talked about it, I don't think we would have had any problems.

    Message boards where disagreements with the dominant view are discouraged are less interesting. Predictably, hoosierguy will be the next target of the masses, and if/once he gets kicked out, they'll find someone else to gang up on.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    This is disingenuous. (In my opinion) you were one of the main people who provoked vnzla and advocated for his banning. It's not a surprise that you two didn't get along--vnzla was almost as irrationally negative as you are irrationally positive, but the spare me the crocodile tears.

    I've been around for a while, reading well before I signed up, and (in my opinion) Hicks has gotten a lot more rational and tolerant as a mod over the years, but I think it was a bad move to ban vnzla and I hope it can be reversed. He was a good counter-balance to the sunshine pumpers, had an OK sense of humor, and brought a lot to the board. If people who "couldn't stand him" used the ignore list as much as they talked about it, I don't think we would have had any problems.

    Message boards where disagreements with the dominant view are discouraged are less interesting. Predictably, hoosierguy will be the next target of the masses, and if/once he gets kicked out, they'll find someone else to gang up on.
    I agree to a point. Look I like Vzl and though he brought some great stuff to the board. He just started to go overboard. I mean he kept saying we need to replace West with a younger guy. While his idea was fine and seemed brilliant it was impossible. Yet he kept saying it was possible and that we just over value West's intangibles. The fact of the matter was we were way over the cap and keeping West was the only option. Unless you consider signing a Carl Landry level player for MLE money an option (which shouldn't of been)


    He kept saying sign Milsap trade for Varejoe the only problem was they were out of our price range and way out of it. He refused to believe that idea(even though it is a fact) and now takes all his frustration out on West who is living up to his contract with his play. Add in his intangibles he is a bargain. But like Count55 said the issue became he would ram his views down other posters throats and he never even understood or cared/ respected the other person.

    I have no issue with Vzl like I said he is a solid poster if he didn't have people who take his bait. The board just suffered due to his posting he doesn't deserve all the blame, but he needed to go. I hope what you say isnt right in terms of the next poster being targeted. But chances are a new Vzl will pop up. I do agree I like people with different opinion than mine. Hell when I get hired as a coach I am going to hire people I disagree with. The only difference is they will respect me, and we will get better due to disagreement not just *****.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Message boards where disagreements with the dominant view are discouraged are less interesting. Predictably, hoosierguy will be the next target of the masses, and if/once he gets kicked out, they'll find someone else to gang up on.
    Sorry, but in my opinion this is disingenuous and a bit biased.

    If what you said was correct, over the years I have been here (and I think I started reading for a year in 04 or 05 before I joined) TPTB would have banned hundreds, if not more, of the posters who were not "sunshiners". I will agree that people have been given a hard time for not pooping butterflies and roses. But you know what, and I can say this genuinely, I think more times than not it was all in good fun. Even when it was not, I think both sides understood they were rooting for the team, just with two different perspectives.

    If what you said (and what you predict to happen) was accurate, then we would have a lot more banning's than we have had. With the exception of spammers, I remember Sassan, Earl (Lets please move on), and Jermaniac being perma banned. Recently OlBlu was perma banned, and even though he was a Redskins fan (was he, or just pretneinding to be, I honestly dont know), but he kind of brought that upon himself. So in a 7-10 year time frame 4 posters have been prema-banned, asked to never return. IMO if what you saying is accurate surely that number would be doubled...if not tripled....especially after some of the years we have had in the past (thank you Jim O Brien).

    I will agree with one thing, though. And I am guilty of it myself. It almost seems rude to use the ignore feature (we are...or at least I have been...groomed from a young age not to ignore people) but in some cases I think it really is the best thing to do to keep the peace.



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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I will agree that people have been given a hard time for not pooping butterflies and roses.
    People have been given a hard time for not bashing the team as well. People have been given a hard time for sticking up for certain players of this team. They just don't play the victim about it.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    This is disingenuous. (In my opinion) you were one of the main people who provoked vnzla and advocated for his banning. It's not a surprise that you two didn't get along--vnzla was almost as irrationally negative as you are irrationally positive, but the spare me the crocodile tears.

    I've been around for a while, reading well before I signed up, and (in my opinion) Hicks has gotten a lot more rational and tolerant as a mod over the years, but I think it was a bad move to ban vnzla and I hope it can be reversed. He was a good counter-balance to the sunshine pumpers, had an OK sense of humor, and brought a lot to the board. If people who "couldn't stand him" used the ignore list as much as they talked about it, I don't think we would have had any problems.

    Message boards where disagreements with the dominant view are discouraged are less interesting. Predictably, hoosierguy will be the next target of the masses, and if/once he gets kicked out, they'll find someone else to gang up on.
    It is absolutely true that I replied to Vnzla more than anyone else and thus contributed to the pattern that count55 mentioned. I said it in my reply to him as well. I was the poster that took his initial bait too often. Most of the time I was the second step in the pattern that count55 mentioned.

    However, I never advocated Vnzla's ban. I disagreed with the 30 day suspension and I disagree with this ban as well. I have made this position of mine known in both threads that revolved around this issue (the 30 day suspension was discussed in one of Peck's Odd Thoughts) and I have also discussed this with Sollozzo and other posters through PMs. I believe in free speech and as a mod I have never banned anyone either (and I sincerely hope that I will never be forced to do it).

    You can blame me because I didn't ignore Vnzla and replied to his posts a lot. That is something that you can freely do. But saying that I advocated for his ban is untrue and unjust. I never advocated for this ban and I will never agree with it either. I just recognize that Hicks wasn't the one to blame for it.

    I believe that disagreement is a vital part of a forum. Disagreements can enhance a discussion and only through disagreement can new views be born. It's exactly like p4e said. Disagreement is vital in life because it is creative.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I believe that disagreement is a vital part of a forum. Disagreements can enhance a discussion and only through disagreement can new views be born. It's exactly like p4e said. Disagreement is vital in life because it is creative.
    I flat out disagree with most of what you said! Actually it's only though learning that new views are born, and we can learn in many ways! And the thing about disagreements is they upset people. Why do you think Vnzla81 was banned? Why do you think people left the Digest?

    With the Internet, if a forum isn't modded very well you get forums like found on ESPN, where disagreements are the norm and the only thing enhanced by the discussions are the ways mean spirited people call each other names.

    Discord is not good for people and that is what you are advocating. Sometimes disagreements upset people so much they kill themselves. Actually getting along with others is whats vital.
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    I quoted the above because this is how I once felt about the Digest.
    Our ailment of course is the Pacers. I came here to read about the Pacers and be entertained. And then leave in a good mood.

    However, for the last few years more often than not the prevailing spirit of the Digest has been discord and disagreement and I've been trying to leave, but habit and the other forums kept me coming back.

    I came here the other day and realized the forum had a different feel than usual, it was more peaceful and I wondered why. I had been missing Pecks posts and so my first thought was it had something to do with him, but there weren't any new posts from Peck so I disregarded that thought.

    Then I remembered it had felt peaceful when Vnzla81 had been gone for a month, but I knew he was back so I thought he had actually listened to the mods. So I went looking to see if Vnzla was still posting and found this thread. True story, I can actually feel the difference in the forum.

    Some will think I'm silly or weird, but everyone has experienced discord when other family members are having a disagreement. There's a certain feeling of discomfort that you don't like, you want them to get along. When Vnzla is posting he brings a similar vibe to the forum, at least for me he does.

    I like a lively discussion, but the internet seems to bring out the worst in people. That's why I think the best forums are the stricter ones that won't let disagreements get out of hand.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 01-14-2014 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I've ignored him for a long time.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    On the surface he was easier to deal with than

    Devil is in the details though ya know...

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    He was like good Tinsley and bad Tinsley. Good Tinsley is that he did make many good points. I also agreed with him most of the time.
    Bad Tinsley is that he never would let things go, he went after the admins pretty regularly...particularly those that tend to take his bait.


    Then you have creepy situations where he would ask people to follow him on other boards as-if his posts are pure gold. He PM'ed me with that one time and I felt violated.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.
    I can accept the fact that you didn't have a problem with him the same way that I and many others did.

    What I can't accept is this insinuation that I somehow made this decision due only to or even mostly to what happened two days ago. That is absurd, that is myopic, and given the entirety of what went into trying to make this work over the last few years, that is even somewhat irritating, to be quite honest.

    There was an enormous amount of time, effort, consideration, and patience put into trying to make this work over the years, and I'm not exaggerating, it was literally a 2-3 year period of time. That is not only referring to the work put in by me, but also by three or four other administrators as well. And what did we get in response? Almost nothing but a lack of cooperation, blaming everyone else but himself for anything and everything, and otherwise snarky, mocking, or otherwise rude commentary. He didn't get a second chance, he got closer to a a hundred chances. A PD member has never, ever, been given this much slack before, this much time, this many chances, to straighten up before being banned. Ever.

    So to go through all of that, only for him to yet again wave his *** in my face for Nth time, he finally got what he deserved. Quite frankly, the only thing that was possibly wrong about this banishment is that it took too long to finally happen.

    So don't think for one more second that what happened two days ago is any more than perhaps 1% of the reason why he's gone. It was simply the FINAL 1%, with 99% of it already in place.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I can accept the fact that you didn't have a problem with him the same way that I and many others did.

    What I can't accept is this insinuation that I somehow made this decision due only to or even mostly to what happened two days ago. That is absurd, that is myopic, and given the entirety of what went into trying to make this work over the last few years, that is even somewhat irritating, to be quite honest.

    There was an enormous amount of time, effort, consideration, and patience put into trying to make this work over the years, and I'm not exaggerating, it was literally a 2-3 year period of time. That is not only referring to the work put in by me, but also by three or four other administrators as well. And what did we get in response? Almost nothing but a lack of cooperation, blaming everyone else but himself for anything and everything, and otherwise snarky, mocking, or otherwise rude commentary. He didn't get a second chance, he got closer to a a hundred chances. A PD member has never, ever, been given this much slack before, this much time, this many chances, to straighten up before being banned. Ever.

    So to go through all of that, only for him to yet again wave his *** in my face for Nth time, he finally got what he deserved. Quite frankly, the only thing that was possibly wrong about this banishment is that it took too long to finally happen.

    So don't think for one more second that what happened two days ago is any more than perhaps 1% of the reason why he's gone. It was simply the FINAL 1%, with 99% of it already in place.

    I say this as nicely as possible: Why should he have given you any respect for giving him an infraction to this post?

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    I've read multiple sports message boards over the years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that this is the only place where such a tame post would get an infraction. It's major over-moderation, and quite frankly it ticks people off when they get infractions for such tame comments that aren't attacking anyone. He wasn't talking about the Granger issue. He wasn't personally attacking any poster. From his perspective, he probably felt that you were trying to "poke the bear" to bait him into an overreaction. I don't blame him at all for mocking that. If a more "respected" poster would have said that "heart and soul" comment in a game recap, would they have gotten an infraction? I seriously seriously doubt it. Giving vnzla an infraction for that comment comes across as a major witch hunt.

    I understand that you say all of this stuff went on for a 2-3 year period and that this was just a tiny tiny tiny final straw. But it was a final straw. A few days ago he was posting. Now he isn't. The reasons behind the final straw are very questionable and seem more vindictive than anything else. They come across as you saying, "you want to smart off to me about your infraction, well how does a permanent ban taste?"

    I bet 99% of this forum would not think that "heart and soul" post was infraction-worthy if it was from poster x instead of vnzla. IMHO, the over-moderation on this forum has gone way too far. This forum has thrived for a decade without the over-moderation that we've seen over the last month or so.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-11-2014 at 09:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I say this as nicely as possible: Why should he have given you any respect for giving him an infraction to this post?

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    I've read multiple sports message boards over the years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that this is the only place where such a tame post would get an infraction.
    I'll have to disagree with it. The "heart and soul" part was obviously ironic and given the poster's history it could easily be considered as baiting.

    Recently, I became a moderator on a board that has much stricter rules than PD has and I can definitely say that a comment in this vain could definitely earn an infraction over there as well. So, this really isn't the only place.
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  35. #20
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'll have to disagree with it. The "heart and soul" part was obviously ironic and given the poster's history it could easily be considered as baiting.

    Recently, I became a moderator on a board that has much stricter rules than PD has and I can definitely say that a comment in this vain could definitely earn an infraction over there as well. So, this really isn't the only place.
    What's baiting about it? It was in the heat of a game thread when the Pacers were getting waxed and West had another single digit scoring night. Often people (such as myself) say that West's intangibles make him worth his contract, but vnzla was simply pointing out that those intangibles weren't worth that much against the Hawks. It was just a heat of the moment sarcastic remark, the likes of which have been made a billion times on this forum.

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  37. #21
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.
    As someone who has moderated and admined forums in the past, unfortunately, you can't go on with the reputation vnzla had built here, and simply get away with insulting an admin with banhammer powers (granted, thats never really a good idea for ANYONE ) and the site that allows you to post, even if it's outside the public view.

    If he had acted more like the "off-line" Vnzla, who can disagree with you, but not insult someone in doing so, he would have been fine.

    All I know is, PD gave him a HELL of lot more chances than I would have back in my time. Also, I never would have gone to the painstaking details that Hicks did in explaining to the public why the decision was made.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 01-10-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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  39. #22
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I can accept that a behind the scenes war of words erupted that led to the banning, I just don't understand what was infraction worthy about the heart and soul post that led to the war of words. Did someone complain about the heart and soul comment?
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  41. #23
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    The one thing I can say about this whole situation with 100% certainty is that if Vnzla had just acted like he does in person on the boards....none of this would have ever happened. At the last forum party I would say the person he shared most opinions with was Unclebuck.

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  43. #24
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    If any of you had read ANY of his replies to PM's suggesting he'd sort of atone and just pipe it down a bit, you'd be amazed he wasn't perma banned 2 years ago.

    We tried it, some of us Admins staked our reputation on it to get him to come around, to pretty please behave a little more civilized, it wasn't to be, so it is where it is today.

    And I promise you all one thing, the day this board really becomes a democratic community, i will be the first to give each and everyone voting rights, but until then, Admins decide what happens and we have our own democratic system where we can all challenge Hicks's decision, so far non have done that, makes you kind of think
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  45. #25
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    the day this board really becomes a democratic community, i will be the first to give each and everyone voting rights,
    Along with a monthly bill for bandwidth costs, am I right?
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