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Thread: Vnzla81

  1. #1
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    Default Vnzla81

    His profile says he is banned. What happened?

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/member.php?10562-vnzla81

    His last post said:

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    Surely to God he wouldn't get banned for something that tame.........


    Can those of us who enjoyed interacting with him get an explanation as to why he just vanished into thin air like Jimmy Hoffa?

  2. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    No, that post is not why he's out. That post received an infraction, which did not even cause a temporary suspension (more infractions would be required to do that), as infractions are the standard 'warning' now on PD. This post was to be addressed and then ignored to then move on. It was not the point, save for technically being one of the 'straws' on the camel's back in the bigger picture, if you want to look at it that way.

    The point is this: He's been pushing buttons, pushing the limits, over and over and over again on this forum for years. He'd received infractions, he's received temporary suspensions, and while most probably are not aware of it, he's received DOZENS AND DOZENS of private conversations, from a handful of different admins, over literally years of time, trying to dialog with him, to reason with him, to explain our point of view with him, and to try to work with him to find a middle ground so that he could stay a part of the forum in a way that wasn't driving tons of people (often including many admins, and certainly a lot of members as well) nuts with his attitude/behavior, and quite frankly, it was met with a bad attitude, with sarcasm, with no accountability, with blaming everyone but himself, with unfairly characterizing others (members and admins alike), to mocking others, provoking others, and otherwise basically hammering the board with nonsense mixed in with some actual good content as well.

    Quite frankly, he was a master of walking the tight rope of being enough of a nuisance to stir things up repeatedly with many, while often managing to just-not-quite-go too far too often to get banned, but after the 2059283059285th round of his bad attitude, enough was finally enough.

    What was that, you may be wondering? I'll tell you what. In response to the above infraction, obviously he disagreed with it, and that's fair enough. However, this time he couldn't just leave it at that. Now, keep in mind, he has been made aware for months now that he was already considered to be on thin ice, and it has been articulated in painstaking detail to him numerous times in private why that is, and you best believe his attitude is a part of that, and he knew this. That having been said, this time he chose to not just disagree with a decision (which again is fair enough in and of itself), but he also chose insult me, to insult the forum/site as a whole, and when I called him on it, he just laughed and doubled-down on both insults.

    I'm sorry, but after all the time, effort, second (third, fourth, fifth, sixth, sevenths, etc., etc.) chances, all of the dialog, making sure to be fair and go after people who just wanted to provoke him or bust his balls or insult him, to putting up with his crap over and over again in general, and quite frankly him never sounding very grateful for any of our efforts and usually just putting us and others down whenever it was convenient, after all the damn time and chances he has gotten, at some point you can only poke the bear so many times before your arm gets ripped off. Enough was finally enough. He got enough rope to hang himself 10 times over in the past few years. He got a LOT, a LOT more slack and patience than posters in years past have received when it comes to making or not making this decision, and he finally pushed too many times. He's out. Enough pebbles, rocks, stones, and boulders eventually added up to the weight of a mountain. Especially when there is never remorse, never accountability, never any ownership, paired with the insults, the mockery, etc.

    You have no idea how long this has been going on in private, how much behind-the-scenes have been involved, over months and years, literally years, and how much time, thought, effort, conversation, not just between him and several admins but between the admins with one another along the way in regards to him, has been put into trying to make it work. You really don't.

    I don't expect those who enjoyed him to like it, I understand they won't, but it is what it is. I've explained my perspective, God knows I've had similar talks in private a million times with other admins as well, and this stupid dance had to eventually end sometime if the attitude/behavior didn't adjust, and it never ultimately did. In his twisted mind, he's totally right, we're totally wrong, and it's everyone else's fault but his, always and forever, and "LOL" if you suggest otherwise. This went on far longer than it ever really had any business going. Sometimes it's not about doing one particularly bad thing. Sometimes it's just too many smaller and moderate things for too long before you finally are told 'no more'. He got more rope than anyone in the 10+ year history of Pacers Digest ever got. He blew it.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I guess you guys know best and drive the sort of topic and discussions you want on PD, but I'll miss the guy. I have butted heads with him several times over the years but just came to accept that was just how he is and I learned to handle him accordingly (aka not get offended by his pokes directed my way).

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I've never had a problem with Vnzla81 but I suspect you have to look outside the box. If a fan of another team came into PD and just constantly put down Pacer players would we as a group accept that? Shoot Kstat and Shags are Piston supporters, Robertmto is a Wizards guy, and DisplayedKnick (of course doesn't post much) don't even come here to constantly tear into the Pacer players. We all get ticked at times on how the guys are playing, but only a few PD posters seem to get delight from Pacer player failures. Personally you don't have to be constantly rah rah, but to almost wish for your team (players) to fail is not what I consider a good trait.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I always appreciated how Vnzla was Johnny on the Spot in posting new tweets and relevant NBA articles.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I've ignored him for a long time.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    On the surface he was easier to deal with than

    Devil is in the details though ya know...

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    He was like good Tinsley and bad Tinsley. Good Tinsley is that he did make many good points. I also agreed with him most of the time.
    Bad Tinsley is that he never would let things go, he went after the admins pretty regularly...particularly those that tend to take his bait.


    Then you have creepy situations where he would ask people to follow him on other boards as-if his posts are pure gold. He PM'ed me with that one time and I felt violated.
    LeWade are going down.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.
    As someone who has moderated and admined forums in the past, unfortunately, you can't go on with the reputation vnzla had built here, and simply get away with insulting an admin with banhammer powers (granted, thats never really a good idea for ANYONE ) and the site that allows you to post, even if it's outside the public view.

    If he had acted more like the "off-line" Vnzla, who can disagree with you, but not insult someone in doing so, he would have been fine.

    All I know is, PD gave him a HELL of lot more chances than I would have back in my time. Also, I never would have gone to the painstaking details that Hicks did in explaining to the public why the decision was made.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 01-10-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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  20. #11
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Hicks, thanks for giving me a thoughtful reply.

    My issue is this: Yeah, you're right that I certainly don't know what went on behind closed doors. Regardless, he was still allowed to post two days ago. Then he makes some tame "heart and soul" comment about David West, gets an infraction, has some words with you behind closed doors...........and is outright banned? IMHO, that just seems like an incredibly weak "final straw". He wasn't bashing Granger fans in that post that got an infraction. He wasn't personally attacking other posters. He wasn't fighting with anyone. It was a tame sarcastic comment, the likes of which have been said about a million times on this forum by other posters. I don't think that most people get offended by something like that.

    I thought he had been getting along with others pretty well over the last month. I just feel that giving him an infraction for that "heart and soul" comment was poking the bear so to speak. It's just a little hard to accept that some private message squabbling that none of us can see was ultimately the final straw. You list all of these things that have gone on over the years, but the ultimate final straw just seems pretty weak, and I'm trying to say that as delicately as possible.
    I can accept the fact that you didn't have a problem with him the same way that I and many others did.

    What I can't accept is this insinuation that I somehow made this decision due only to or even mostly to what happened two days ago. That is absurd, that is myopic, and given the entirety of what went into trying to make this work over the last few years, that is even somewhat irritating, to be quite honest.

    There was an enormous amount of time, effort, consideration, and patience put into trying to make this work over the years, and I'm not exaggerating, it was literally a 2-3 year period of time. That is not only referring to the work put in by me, but also by three or four other administrators as well. And what did we get in response? Almost nothing but a lack of cooperation, blaming everyone else but himself for anything and everything, and otherwise snarky, mocking, or otherwise rude commentary. He didn't get a second chance, he got closer to a a hundred chances. A PD member has never, ever, been given this much slack before, this much time, this many chances, to straighten up before being banned. Ever.

    So to go through all of that, only for him to yet again wave his *** in my face for Nth time, he finally got what he deserved. Quite frankly, the only thing that was possibly wrong about this banishment is that it took too long to finally happen.

    So don't think for one more second that what happened two days ago is any more than perhaps 1% of the reason why he's gone. It was simply the FINAL 1%, with 99% of it already in place.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I can accept that a behind the scenes war of words erupted that led to the banning, I just don't understand what was infraction worthy about the heart and soul post that led to the war of words. Did someone complain about the heart and soul comment?
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    The one thing I can say about this whole situation with 100% certainty is that if Vnzla had just acted like he does in person on the boards....none of this would have ever happened. At the last forum party I would say the person he shared most opinions with was Unclebuck.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    If any of you had read ANY of his replies to PM's suggesting he'd sort of atone and just pipe it down a bit, you'd be amazed he wasn't perma banned 2 years ago.

    We tried it, some of us Admins staked our reputation on it to get him to come around, to pretty please behave a little more civilized, it wasn't to be, so it is where it is today.

    And I promise you all one thing, the day this board really becomes a democratic community, i will be the first to give each and everyone voting rights, but until then, Admins decide what happens and we have our own democratic system where we can all challenge Hicks's decision, so far non have done that, makes you kind of think
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    the day this board really becomes a democratic community, i will be the first to give each and everyone voting rights,
    Along with a monthly bill for bandwidth costs, am I right?
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I can accept the fact that you didn't have a problem with him the same way that I and many others did.

    What I can't accept is this insinuation that I somehow made this decision due only to or even mostly to what happened two days ago. That is absurd, that is myopic, and given the entirety of what went into trying to make this work over the last few years, that is even somewhat irritating, to be quite honest.

    There was an enormous amount of time, effort, consideration, and patience put into trying to make this work over the years, and I'm not exaggerating, it was literally a 2-3 year period of time. That is not only referring to the work put in by me, but also by three or four other administrators as well. And what did we get in response? Almost nothing but a lack of cooperation, blaming everyone else but himself for anything and everything, and otherwise snarky, mocking, or otherwise rude commentary. He didn't get a second chance, he got closer to a a hundred chances. A PD member has never, ever, been given this much slack before, this much time, this many chances, to straighten up before being banned. Ever.

    So to go through all of that, only for him to yet again wave his *** in my face for Nth time, he finally got what he deserved. Quite frankly, the only thing that was possibly wrong about this banishment is that it took too long to finally happen.

    So don't think for one more second that what happened two days ago is any more than perhaps 1% of the reason why he's gone. It was simply the FINAL 1%, with 99% of it already in place.

    I say this as nicely as possible: Why should he have given you any respect for giving him an infraction to this post?

    12mil for 12 and 6 and a lot of heart and soul.

    I've read multiple sports message boards over the years, and I feel pretty confident in saying that this is the only place where such a tame post would get an infraction. It's major over-moderation, and quite frankly it ticks people off when they get infractions for such tame comments that aren't attacking anyone. He wasn't talking about the Granger issue. He wasn't personally attacking any poster. From his perspective, he probably felt that you were trying to "poke the bear" to bait him into an overreaction. I don't blame him at all for mocking that. If a more "respected" poster would have said that "heart and soul" comment in a game recap, would they have gotten an infraction? I seriously seriously doubt it. Giving vnzla an infraction for that comment comes across as a major witch hunt.

    I understand that you say all of this stuff went on for a 2-3 year period and that this was just a tiny tiny tiny final straw. But it was a final straw. A few days ago he was posting. Now he isn't. The reasons behind the final straw are very questionable and seem more vindictive than anything else. They come across as you saying, "you want to smart off to me about your infraction, well how does a permanent ban taste?"

    I bet 99% of this forum would not think that "heart and soul" post was infraction-worthy if it was from poster x instead of vnzla. IMHO, the over-moderation on this forum has gone way too far. This forum has thrived for a decade without the over-moderation that we've seen over the last month or so.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-11-2014 at 09:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Ever had a kid, Soll? Say like your 4yo son, one day starts going around saying, "I farted". You say stop. He keeps going. You say if he keeps it up you'll take a toy away. He stops --- for 3 hours. You take toy away, so he goes on a "fart" rampage, you wack his butt and send him to his room for a bit. The next day you're at the grocery store when he yells it out loud. You take him home and tell him he lost his Bat man toy for the day. If he says it again he's lost it for a week. He says he's sorry. Three hours later at church, he busts it out again. You tell him next time he says it he's lost it for good. The next day at dinner with your parents he goes, "fart". Your response is, "That's it --- you've lost Batman forever." Your mom says, "Gee that's sort of drastic, doncha think?" All she heard was him say "fart" once, and you went and took his Batman toy away forever. She lacked context. Fart isn't even a terrible word, but it's the principle of it --- the kid needs to respect your rules.

    Hicks just took Vnza's Batman toy away. You're Hick's mom.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 01-11-2014 at 10:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I've moderated forums before. I wish my fellow mods/admins were as stringent as they are here.

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  36. #19
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Sollozzo,

    There's two separate layers to this.

    First, regarding only this infraction: I feel like what's unknown or under-considered here is we had let multiple other recent provocative sarcastic things like this go before finally stepping in here. We don't do this with every single incident because that is when we would feel like it's over-moderating, but when he keeps it up long enough we eventually use an infraction on one of the posts as a means of saying, "Okay, enough already."

    You can't adequately judge a situation like this by totally isolating this one post and judging the validity of the infraction as though nothing else was going on. It doesn't work that way. It's a repetitive behavior that gets ignored to a point to try to give slack, and then if/when it doesn't stop on its own, eventually this is done to curb the behavior. It doesn't hurt anyone, and because it has a modest amount of teeth due to what happens when you reach 3, it has an effect. That's all the infraction was, and it's nothing new because we've been through this with him before.

    Forum-wide, we used to use yellow card warnings that didn't have points, but without the points they had no teeth and were easily ignored, so now infractions are the warnings. Infractions are not by any means, however, a harsh thing to use. Unless you get three within 31 days of one another, you don't lose anything. They're truly not a big thing.

    That's all there is/was to the infraction. Routine stuff that I feel is being misunderstood or perceived as something more than it is regarding severity, and something that it's not regarding the idea that it was as simple as judging one single post without factoring in the greater context.

    Then the second layer goes back to the big picture/scope, which I've addressed earlier. He didn't have to take it where he did, but he did, and it was X times too many for a guy from whom we had already taken an obscene amount of prior crap. I feel like you don't appreciate how that can't continue happening forever, and it had already been tolerated for a long, long time.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    I've moderated forums before. I wish my fellow mods/admins were as stringent as they are here.
    Makes me wonder how different my experiences on other people's forums are from the experiences of other people. I've been on forums that are far, far more strictly moderated than Pacers Digest has ever been. And I've also seen forums that are far, far less strictly moderated the Pacers Digest.

    Generally speaking, the more strict things are, the more polite and on topic the conversations are, the less strict things are, the more tangents and impolite things are. But if you don't cut some slack, you can kill the humor side of things, and sometimes tangents are harmless and/or fun.

    I understand how it can rub people the wrong way, but truly I believe that we find a pretty good middle ground here the vast majority of the time in the site's history.

    And while things might "feel" or otherwise seem different right now (too much/strict), it's really not when you look back at the entire history of the site.

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  40. #21
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    I'm still trying to figure out how OlBlu lasted as long as he did

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Ever had a kid, Soll? Say like your 4yo son, one day starts going around saying, "I farted". You say stop. He keeps going. You say if he keeps it up you'll take a toy away. He stops --- for 3 hours. You take toy away, so he goes on a "fart" rampage, you wack his butt and send him to his room for a bit. The next day you're at the grocery store when he yells it out loud. You take him home and tell him he lost his Bat man toy for the day. If he says it again he's lost it for a week. He says he's sorry. Three hours later at church, he busts it out again. You tell him next time he says it he's lost it for good. The next day at dinner with your parents he goes, "fart". Your response is, "That's it --- you've lost Batman forever." Your mom says, "Gee that's sort of drastic, doncha think?" All she heard was him say "fart" once, and you went and took his Batman toy away forever. She lacked context. Fart isn't even a terrible word, but it's the principle of it --- the kid needs to respect your rules.

    Hicks just took Vnza's Batman toy away. You're Hick's mom.
    I don't have any kids, but I'd definitely laugh if my kid said that in public.

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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm still trying to figure out how OlBlu lasted as long as he did
    Lol, I know most people couldn't stand him, but some of the stuff he said was kind of funny.

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  45. #24
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Sollozzo,

    There's two separate layers to this.

    First, regarding only this infraction: I feel like what's unknown or under-considered here is we had let multiple other recent provocative sarcastic things like this go before finally stepping in here. We don't do this with every single incident because that is when we would feel like it's over-moderating, but when he keeps it up long enough we eventually use an infraction on one of the posts as a means of saying, "Okay, enough already."

    You can't adequately judge a situation like this by totally isolating this one post and judging the validity of the infraction as though nothing else was going on. It doesn't work that way. It's a repetitive behavior that gets ignored to a point to try to give slack, and then if/when it doesn't stop on its own, eventually this is done to curb the behavior. It doesn't hurt anyone, and because it has a modest amount of teeth due to what happens when you reach 3, it has an effect. That's all the infraction was, and it's nothing new because we've been through this with him before.

    Forum-wide, we used to use yellow card warnings that didn't have points, but without the points they had no teeth and were easily ignored, so now infractions are the warnings. Infractions are not by any means, however, a harsh thing to use. Unless you get three within 31 days of one another, you don't lose anything. They're truly not a big thing.

    That's all there is/was to the infraction. Routine stuff that I feel is being misunderstood or perceived as something more than it is regarding severity, and something that it's not regarding the idea that it was as simple as judging one single post without factoring in the greater context.

    Then the second layer goes back to the big picture/scope, which I've addressed earlier. He didn't have to take it where he did, but he did, and it was X times too many for a guy from whom we had already taken an obscene amount of prior crap. I feel like you don't appreciate how that can't continue happening forever, and it had already been tolerated for a long, long time.

    So what exactly did he say behind closed doors that was so egregious that you immediately banned him on the spot?

  46. #25
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    Default Re: Vnzla81

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I don't have any kids, but I'd definitely laugh if my kid said that in public.
    When I was 25, I thought the same way. Things change when you have a kid, and he says that.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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