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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

  1. #126
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    You're right. I forgot about that issue with the cell phone. He took a call from someone in charge with his night club about some emergency. I don't think he was ever disciplined for it though. That's very mild compared to some of the stuff the other guys were doing and unlike the other players he still had a good reputation around the league when he was traded. Getting TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and Roy Hibbert for him was considered a pretty good haul at the time and 5 years later it looks like a fantastic trade.
    Just think what we wouldve gotten and the team we wouldve had if we traded him instead of Brad Miller....

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  3. #127
    Member pogi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    So....are you guys telling me that you think that Artest was better than JO?

  4. #128
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Just think what we wouldve gotten and the team we wouldve had if we traded him instead of Brad Miller....
    Brad left because of money.

  5. #129
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    So....are you guys telling me that you think that Artest was better than JO?
    In a word....yes...even moreso given the salaries...

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  7. #130
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    So....are you guys telling me that you think that Artest was better than JO?
    Yes, and I have always believed so.

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  9. #131
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    I beg to differ, I guess.

  10. #132
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Seriously? We are seriously going to start complaining about bringing in players like Rawle Marshall when the Pacers had to scrap the bottom of the barrell to fill out a roster quickly? Might as well start talking about his bad choice of resturants too.
    Yes. Seriously. There HAD to have been better options than bringing in head case after head case over a long period of time. That's especially true when it's end of the bench guys. It's a FAR bigger mistake to draft a Rawle Marshall or Flight White type of player than a good player like Artest. At least with Artest there was potential upside to having a head case on the roster.

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  12. #133
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    So....are you guys telling me that you think that Artest was better than JO?
    Artest (don't get mad) was my favorite player and I would like to think he was better than JO, but IMO he was only better because he was healthier. I think a 100% healthy JO would have been the more valuable player to the team and considered a better player even if Artest was very good.

  13. #134
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Artest (don't get mad) was my favorite player and I would like to think he was better than JO, but IMO he was only better because he was healthier. I think a 100% healthy JO would have been the more valuable player to the team and considered a better player even if Artest was very good.
    Oh no...I honestly liked both JO and Artest. And if it sounds like I'm a JO apologist, and that he did no wrong, I hope to quell that misconception. My whole argument was that I felt that many here is blaming JO (or, at least, feel he's more the big part of the Pacer's "problem" during that time frame), and it seems many forget how crazy the WHOLE team was. JO did whine, and was a diva....but, everyone else had their part in that demise of a "could-of-been" championship. Someone mentioned that an authority figure would've quelled the fuse, and the brawl wouldn't of happened (at least, that's how I read it), but I'm trying to say that even if West was on that team, there would still be problems. He wouldn't of stopped the brawl. That was, in so many words, destined to happened. No one would've stopped it, at least, not a Pacer. Only the refs and Ben Wallace could've stopped it before it began.

    I'm also reading that some here feel that Artest was the better player. Now I understand everybody has their different preferences and to each his own.....but, to me, the way I'm reading a lot of posts here are like: "JO sucks, and if we had a competent PF, we could've won...." and that could be the case, although I disagree. The same could be said that if we replaced Ron with a competent SF we could've won, which I also disagree. But to say JO was a waste of money, at least at the time of the signing, I fully disagree. He was one of the top PF's in league at that time. Averaging 20-10 and had decent defense. And I'm willing to bet that if JO would've left for another team, and we tried to build a squad around Artest, Jackson, Tinsley, Baby Al, and Fred Jones, that would've been an epic fail. They needed each other, and Larry knew it. That's why Bird waited about two years and the brawl to figure out it wasn't working and it wasn't going to work. Also, it wasn't like any decent PF's were lining up to come to Indy.

    And I also disagree with those who didn't feel that that team, on paper, had championship aspirations. We had a double-double power forward, a defensive player of the year with an unorthodox, yet hard to to block shot, and a shooting guard that, even though he was inconsistent, could go off for 20 at any point and still play good defense....with some role players that also played good defense and throw in a future Hall-of-Famer in his twilight years wanting to win one as his personal swan song. It's just that our main pieces couldn't get their heads straight.

    But, I also feel they realized later in their careers what-could-of-been. As I mentioned before with how JO speaks about Indy, and with Ron's postgame interview after the Laker championship. They knew we had a championship squad, but their immaturity ruined it and our franchise for a long time.

    Now after saying that, and even though I really did like that squad before the big blowup, I feel it created a domino effect that now gives us this squad, which wouldn't of happened without the chain of events that put us through a period of despair.

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  15. #135
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes. Seriously. There HAD to have been better options than bringing in head case after head case over a long period of time. That's especially true when it's end of the bench guys. It's a FAR bigger mistake to draft a Rawle Marshall or Flight White type of player than a good player like Artest. At least with Artest there was potential upside to having a head case on the roster.
    The Pacers even didn't draft Rawle. He was a throw in during a trade to make salaries match, when the Pacers dumped Anthony Johnson for Darrell Armstrong.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-28-2013 at 12:56 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers even didn't draft Rawle. He was a throw in during a trade to make salaries match, when the Pacers dumped Anthony Johnson for Darrell Armstrong.
    However they acquired Marshall, White, Harrison, Williams, Tinsley, Artest, Jackson and a few other questionable character guys doesn't matter. They still represented the Pacers and the guy calling the shots got exactly what he deserved. A team that had to get blown up...which decimated the fan base for almost a decade. Really, it was pretty terrible decisions especially since some of those guys weren't even basketball players.

    The good news is that the franchise learned a valuable lesson. You can't build a team without considering how the locker room works and that means looking beyond talent and athleticism and considering the people themselves.

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  18. #137
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    THis is the first time I ever heard that Marshall was a problem. Or maybe I forgot when better players made dumber choices.

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  20. #138
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    However they acquired Marshall, White, Harrison, Williams, Tinsley, Artest, Jackson and a few other questionable character guys doesn't matter. They still represented the Pacers and the guy calling the shots got exactly what he deserved. A team that had to get blown up...which decimated the fan base for almost a decade. Really, it was pretty terrible decisions especially since some of those guys weren't even basketball players
    You're talking about discipline issues with players (Marshall/White) that didn't have ANY discipline issues with with the Pacers. James White didn't even make the regular roster, and was cut at the end of training camp. Maybe if you'd say they wasted picks, like White, or should have held out for more known commodiities during trades, like Marshall.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-30-2013 at 09:23 AM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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