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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Actually thinking about JO and Hibbert together in their prime would be similar as having Aldridge and Hibbert together in other words one of the best PF/C combos the NBA has ever seen.
    Absolutely dominant IF Prime JO stays healthy and keeps his ego in check the way he could keep it in check off court (the dude did go to my high school's prom when I was a junior in high school, after all ). You put that Jermaine on this team today and even without a West on the team, it is absolutely a dominant unit.
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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    LeBron is blocked by Roy when he drives. Was JO blocked when driving to the basket? I don't really know.

    Getting your shot blocked is certainly a missed shot and when it happens repeatedly against an opponent it does make you think twice about going up against that player again but other than that I don't know if this is a huge point to argue about.
    There was actually a deeper breakdown on another site that showed JO got his jump shot blocked 6% of the time which was double the league average. Couple his generally mediocre shooting percentage with the blocked shots and it points to some effeciency issues. I'm not a JO hater but always felt that for a guy with his size and athleticism he needed to be more effecient offensively. Especially since he was often considered an MVP level "build your team around this guy" type of talent.

    Roy has similar issues. He gets his shot blocked even more than JO and also leans toward a historically mediocre FG% for a big man. The difference is that Roy is really our 3rd option offensively and blocked shots numbers aside is IMO a more dependable post defender & rim protector. Certainly part of that is because JO played a lot of his defensive minutes at the 4 vs. the 5.

    As far as Dwight Howard goes. He has issues getting his shot blocked because he has turrible footwork and turrible post-up fundamentals. If he is truly working with McHale like they say he is it will do wonders for his offensive game. I always thought JO had pretty good feet and a pretty good post game but just lacked that "something" that allowed him to finish at a high rate.

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  5. #103
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Oh, let's not forget that Shawne Williams was a Bird draft pick, just like James White.

    Unlike Walsh, Bird has shown a propensity for moving on with players who underperform. Walsh, OTOH, just wrote them a bigger check.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    With Roy (or West) they get the ball and see what they have and if the defense is there it quickly comes back out and the play resets. With JO the ball went into him and there it stayed for eventually either a shot off the side of the rim or it would come back out with 2 secs on the shot clock for a desperation, out of rhythm heave.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Unlike Walsh, Bird has shown a propensity for moving on with players who underperform. Walsh, OTOH, just wrote them a bigger check.
    So the point goes from how Bird may be would have or maybe wouldn't have even drafted players like Shawne Williams, to how he wouldn't have re-signed them to bigger salaries. Just because Bird hasn't done it, doesn't mean he won't do it. Bird has done a great job, and he's pretty much hit a home run at every opportunity for the past couple seasons he's been in charge, but to try and make the argument that he won't in the future when the situation can very easily change doesn't hold a whole lot of weight.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    If JO had the maturity he has now with the skill he had then, then yes a JO/Hibbert combo would be amazing. I really think it is hard to judge, but to dismiss West because he wasn't the skilled specimen that JO is negating too much of the game of basketball itself.

    If skill was so vital then we would have won it all with JO/Artest/SJax. When I think of the Kings I think of Webber and Bibby. But with Vlade they would not been elite. Players like West and Vlade make teams. Players like JO make edited highlight reels.

    And I honestly don't think that JO was dominant on the block.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Which player would you choose?

    Player A:
    21pts 10rebs 48fg% 2.6blks 2asts 37mpg
    Player B:
    21pts 9rebs 48fg% 1.3blk 2asts 37mpg

    EDIT: I'll also throw in their career averages with the teams they played with through their prime years.
    Player A in 8 seasons:
    18.6pts 9.6rebs 45.8fg% 2.4blks 2asts 35mpg
    Player B in 8 seasons:
    16pts 7.2rebs 49fg% 1blk 2asts 32mpg

    I'll agree that JO was better, but JO in his prime is pretty much DWest in his prime. The differences are minimal and the differences over their prime years as a collective is also 1 made shot and 2 rebounds per game, so not a whole lot there either.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-27-2013 at 10:58 AM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I view Walsh like Bill Polian. Bill Polian drafted a ton of great players for a long time and won a Super Bowl, but his style eventually got stale and he found himself fired. Like Polian, Walsh was very good for a long time, but he simply lost his touch.

    Walsh's downfall in Indiana started after the ECF loss to the Knicks in 1999. To put it bluntly, he overreacted to it. After watching young and brash players like Camby, Houston, and Spree bulldoze the Pacers, he thought that the wave of the future was young athletic teams as opposed to older veteran teams. Trading Antonio Davis for a draft pick was proof that Walsh no longer had much faith in that team contending for a championship. I don't care if Antonio wanted to start. You simply don't trade away a player that important for a draft pick if you are trying to win a championship. Of course, we all know what happened after the Antonio trade. The Pacers went on to their only NBA Finals appearance and played Shaq. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Antonio would have made the difference against one of the most dominant players in history at his peak, but it sure as hell wouldn't have hurt. I'm sure the guys on the Pacers wouldn't have complained about Antonio giving them some relief by guarding Shaq. Even though he wouldn't have stopped Shaq, he could have at least helped the other guys stay more fresh on the other end of the court. Just an awful trade for a team that should have still been trying to win the championship.
    The Walsh vs. Polian comparison is a really good one. 90% of all franchises in either league would have loved to have had either guy running the front office but in the end each one failed to completely capitolize on the opportunities at hand. Polian only winning one Super Bowl over 15-years with arguably the best QB in history is under performing and Walsh not finding a way to win one championship during MJ's hiatus, during MJ's last year (where the Bulls were obviously vulnerable) & during the strike year was also disappointing.

    In my mind Walsh's missteps began with an over reation to the loss in the 94 ECF to the Knicks. That 94 team was a younger, just as talented and more balanced version of the Knicks. Walsh spent the next several years chasing offensive players (Jackson, Pierce, Eddie Johnson, Rose, Mullin etc. etc.) and ignored the fact that this team beat people (and could have beat people for years to come) with elite defense & rebounding. By 1998 the team had to out execute and out shoot other teams in order to win. They were no longer built for the playoffs and rebounding & defense were secondary. IMO it cost them trips to the finals in 98 & 99 and maybe even 1995.

    An often overlooked effect of the Davis for Bender trade is that had Davis been on that 2000 team Croshere would have never gotten the minutes he did that season and very likely would not have been given his albatross of a deal. Does Brad Miller stay a Pacer if Croshere isn't riding the bench and earning 8 MIL a year in 04 & 05?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    If JO had the maturity he has now with the skill he had then, then yes a JO/Hibbert combo would be amazing. I really think it is hard to judge, but to dismiss West because he wasn't the skilled specimen that JO is negating too much of the game of basketball itself.

    If skill was so vital then we would have won it all with JO/Artest/SJax. When I think of the Kings I think of Webber and Bibby. But with Vlade they would not been elite. Players like West and Vlade make teams. Players like JO make edited highlight reels.

    And I honestly don't think that JO was dominant on the block.
    West,CP3,Chandler and Peja didn't do much either and they are considered by many "team players" or "team chemistry" kind of guys, I believe that this "team chemistry" "team player" thing is overrated.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West,CP3,Chandler and Peja didn't do much either and they are considered by many "team players" or "team chemistry" kind of guys, I believe that this "team chemistry" "team player" thing is overrated.
    What rating was actually given, to argue that it was OVERrated? If we don't know how much rating someone is giving chemistry, how can we decide if it's underrated, overrated, or rated just right?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When it comes to Walsh vs Bird I feel like there is a lot of cherry picking and assumptions made with 0 evidence.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    From that lengthy pacers.com Bird interview:


    After Donnie left, the first thing I did was trade Jermaine O'Neal. I thought that was huge. Even getting the 17th pick really helped us. I didn't really worry about that. I knew it was going to be difficult. The day that Donnie left, I said, 'This is going to be my biggest challenge, to make all the decisions and get the type of team that I want here. It's going to be tough.' People love to go after individuals they don't think can get the job done. I was no different. You have to be tough and you have to be focused and driven. My goal was to get a team here in Indianapolis that fans could be proud of.

    and...

    No question. There's so many, I don't want to get into them. There's so many. Early on, I was behind Donnie and we talked everything out. But being the sole decision-maker is a whole different ballgame. It's like being an assistant coach and moving up to head coach. But I had a plan and we stuck with it, and it worked. And we got lucky. I ain't going to say I knew we was going to get Roy. The day I walked down to the draft room (in 2010), it was between Ed Davis and Paul George. My owner kept asking me who I was taking, and I was still debating. But when it came down to it, you had to take the young, talented guy with a lot of length. If you watched Paul George in college it was scary, because he shot a lot of air balls, he took a lot of bad shots, he turned the ball over at a high rate. But he's long, athletic, he shot 90 percent from the foul line and he can guard.

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/q-and-larry-bird-2013

    -------------------------------------

    The bolded sentences make it pretty reasonable to connect the dots and assume that Bird was basically a "Vice President" to Walsh from 03-08. Bird even labels himself as being an "assistant coach" during that time period. Just like a Vice President of the US gets put in charge of special projects, Bird as the VP of the team oversaw certain aspects of the operation. All accounts say that Saras was his guy. And I think it's fair to assume that the draft was his project since most of the reports at the time always connected him to running the draft. These are the first round picks in the Bird-Walsh era:

    04: Davis Harrison (29). -Didn't workout, but it's hard to get too upset over the last pick in the first round.
    05: Danny Granger (17) - obviously hit that one out of the park.
    06: Shawne Williams (17) - obviously should have taken Rondo, but it's important to point out that aside from Rondo, most of the players taken after Williams were scrubs too.
    07: No first round pick

    By 08, Walsh was gone. Most of the reports said that Bird was in charge of the draft while Walsh was still here, correct? Those three first round picks aren't too bad overall. You can't complain about David Harrison because he was the last pick in the first round. Granger was obviously a home run at 17. Williams was a bust at 17. So in two picks at 17, we hit one out of the park and struck out on the other. I think most teams would take that track record when you're drafting as late as 17.

    Anyway, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that Walsh still was steering the overall direction of the team. You have the quotes from Bird in the above article. You have the fact that Mullin said he only talked to Walsh during the Murphy-Dun trade. When it came to doing trades and keeping certain players, Walsh had the final say. I find it hard to believe that Bird immediately trading JO after Walsh left was just some sort of coincidence. It's clear that Bird never cared for JO too much. OTOH, JO was Walsh's guy. He traded DD for him and later signed him to a huge contract. JO was the centerpiece of Walsh's post-Finals rebuilding efforts. JO was always going to be around as long as Walsh was still here.

    Of course, it's most important to look at the circumstances. Bird was hired in 2003. The team had a 61 win 03-04 season, so we obviously didn't have to do much during the year. Then we signed SJax in 2004. I'll be fair and give them 50-50 accountability for that. Of course, we all know that the wheels fell off with the brawl and aftermath. But who was mostly responsible for building that team? Walsh. JO, Artest, and Tinsley were all brought in before Bird was part of the picture. So even if one wants to give Bird blame for 03-08, let's look at what you're blaming him for. You're blaming him as a "co-Chief" for not putting out a fire that he didn't even start. It wasn't an ideal way for one to start their GM career. The team was forced to make constant reactionary moves and take bad contracts to get rid of bad seeds. No, we were never going to be able to see what Bird was made of as GM until he was the clear cut CEO who was 100% accountable for all of the shots. That's what we got starting in 2008, and I don't think it's a coincidence at all that things began to immediately began to get better. Bird was just better suited for the job at that point.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-27-2013 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What rating was actually given, to argue that it was OVERrated? If we don't know how much rating someone is giving chemistry, how can we decide if it's underrated, overrated, or rated just right?
    Yes rating was given go back few pages to see it, west is supposed to be better than JO because his fake "team chemistry" rating is higher than JO's.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes rating was given go back few pages to see it, west is supposed to be better than JO because his fake "team chemistry" rating is higher than JO's.
    I've read the entire thread, and I must have missed it. Can you quote it? I see Peck said that West is a better fit with this team because of team chemistry, but not that he's a better player.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
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    There was actually a deeper breakdown on another site that showed JO got his jump shot blocked 6% of the time which was double the league average. Couple his generally mediocre shooting percentage with the blocked shots and it points to some effeciency issues. I'm not a JO hater but always felt that for a guy with his size and athleticism he needed to be more effecient offensively. Especially since he was often considered an MVP level "build your team around this guy" type of talent.
    Interesting. I'm not trying to defend JO or anything like that. I just don't think that getting your shot blocked is much more important than simply missing a shot. When Roy forces a miss I don't care particularly if he blocked the shot or forced the opponent to give so much arc to the ball that it never had a chance of going in. That's what I was trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
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    Roy has similar issues. He gets his shot blocked even more than JO and also leans toward a historically mediocre FG% for a big man. The difference is that Roy is really our 3rd option offensively and blocked shots numbers aside is IMO a more dependable post defender & rim protector. Certainly part of that is because JO played a lot of his defensive minutes at the 4 vs. the 5.
    Roy's issue is different. He is getting blocked when he attempts to attack the rim. Roy is not an athletic big that will dunk over people. Other bigs can "outjump" him when he attacks the rim and they can block his shot there. However, he rarely gets blocked when he is posting up which is good since that's Roy's go-to move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
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    As far as Dwight Howard goes. He has issues getting his shot blocked because he has turrible footwork and turrible post-up fundamentals. If he is truly working with McHale like they say he is it will do wonders for his offensive game. I always thought JO had pretty good feet and a pretty good post game but just lacked that "something" that allowed him to finish at a high rate.
    Yeah, I agree with that. Howard's problem is mostly his footwork at the post. He is doing well in that aspect recently, though.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes rating was given go back few pages to see it, west is supposed to be better than JO because his fake "team chemistry" rating is higher than JO's.
    Major Cold clarified that it's just his opinion. He didn't say that it's the be all end all of this discussion. I'll quote his reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    From my own opinion. Sorry I should have said that. Even though, within context, it seemed obvious. It is hard to determine the value of chemistry, even though we are seeing the value now.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think it's a coincidence that when Bird was officially and unquestionably in charge that a JO trade finally happened. He might've wanted out as bad as Bird wanted him out but unlike Walsh there was no way Bird would try and keep him.
    You're right. It's not a coincidence because the dismantling had already begun by Walsh. By the time Bird was officially the head honcho in 2008, JO, Tinsley, and David Harrison were the only players left that had any real role in the brawl. Not too long after JO was traded , Bird let David Harrison know he wouldn't be re-signed by the Pacers. Finally, to completely separate the team from the Brawl, Tinsley was told not to report to Training Camp and was forced to sit out the entire season. Shawne Williams was also traded to the Dallas Mavericks during the training camp of 2008.

    At least JO never got into any off the court trouble during his time here and he did a lot for the community of Indianapolis. Why there is so much hatred for JO is still baffling to me. He wasn't perfect and he made mistakes (he complained way to much to the officials, IMO) but if you're really looking at the entire situation with a wide angled lens instead of zooming in on one player, it's easy to see that he was given the responsibility to try and lead a bunch of selfish teammates who kept getting into trouble off the court and on the court. While he was doing what he was supposed to do off and on the court, his teammates were:

    *Missing and arriving late to practices (multiple knuckelheads)
    *missing team flights (Artest)
    *getting suspended for bumping Pat Riley, breaking cameras in MSG and pictures at Conseco Fieldhouse (Artest)
    *getting benched in favor of Kenny Anderson for insubordination (Tinsley)
    *arguing with the coach during a game and getting benched (Artest, Tinsley, Jackson on different occasions)
    *hitting Rip Hamilton in the face and earning a flagrant foul during game 6 of the ECF with the game tied at 59-59 and less than four minutes to play - http://www.nba.com/games/20040601/INDDET/recap.html (Artest)
    *Going into the stands, inciting a riot (JO never left the floor), getting yourself and other players into legal trouble, and ruining a promising season (Artest and Jackson)
    *Stabbing the team in the back that loyally stood by you by complaining about needing time off to promote an album and then demanding a trade. (Artest)
    *Were getting into shootouts with thugs outside a strip club (Tinsley and Jackson)
    *Getting into a spat outside a night club, then at a gas station, and then being chased through downtown while being shot at (Tinsley)
    *Getting suspended by the team for being arrested on a charge of possession of marijuana and associating with a known murderer at large (Shawne Williams)
    *Getting suspended by the NBA for marijuana use during the season (Harrison)
    *Getting suspended by the team for destroying property in the Spurs guest locker room (Harrison)

    These are just the confirmed incidents that we know happened. Who knows what other types of buffoonery took place that the media never got wind of. I'd love for Reggie Miller to come out with another book about this. I suspect that Tinsley was an instigator in a lot of the beef between Artest and JO and that a lot of his reported sinus infections were really hangovers from a rumored drinking problem but there's not enough evidence to prove it.

    I was a huge JO supporter and to some degree I still am but trading him and getting Roy Hibbert in the process was a great trade and exactly what the team needed to do. However, I think he was placed in an unenviable position of trying to lead a team full of rogues that refused to be lead.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the point goes from how Bird may be would have or maybe wouldn't have even drafted players like Shawne Williams, to how he wouldn't have re-signed them to bigger salaries. Just because Bird hasn't done it, doesn't mean he won't do it. Bird has done a great job, and he's pretty much hit a home run at every opportunity for the past couple seasons he's been in charge, but to try and make the argument that he won't in the future when the situation can very easily change doesn't hold a whole lot of weight.
    I'm not making the argument Bird won't. I'm making the argument about what Walsh DID.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm not making the argument Bird won't. I'm making the argument about what Walsh DID.
    It's a little bit deeper than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Unlike Walsh, Bird has shown a propensity for moving on with players who underperform. Walsh, OTOH, just wrote them a bigger check.
    That's insinuating that Bird won't re-sign players who have underperformed going forward in the future, like Walsh. If your sole argument is that Walsh did, and we don't know what Bird will do, then that's a unclear way of making that arugment.

    EDIT: And V, I'm still waiting on that post where someone overvalued chemistry.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So you are describing not only West but guys like Diaw, Boozer and others, sure JO didn't pass the ball as much and that was probably because he was pretty damn good one on one guy, not many people were able to stop him.

    Trust me I get the feeling but again if I'm comparing players JO kicks West's a** on everything but passing(note that Im not going to argue stats that one is better from 10feets and the other one is better from 10.5feets).

    Actually thinking about JO and Hibbert together in their prime would be similar as having Aldridge and Hibbert together in other words one of the best PF/C combos the NBA has ever seen.
    Actually alot of people were able to stop him which is why he has a below average TS% for a Center. Part of me doesn't blame JO because the coach in large part misused him IMO and by that I mean we used a ton of isolations that were predicatable and easy to double team which was something that JO struggled with. He wasn't affective at passing out of them either but I still think JO never fully developed his game because he should of been a PF and not a Center like the Pacers made him.

    David West however is used properly to maximize the team overall. He gives the team much needed spacing for the wings and it also allows Hibbert to go one on one. This is more or less me saying that JO chemistry problem had probably less to do with him and more of how the coach was using him that hurt team chemistry as a whole.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And V, I'm still waiting on that post where someone overvalued chemistry.
    Is it really that difficult to browse thru the thread yourself ??

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  32. #121
    RING THE BELL! Sandman21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    At least JO never got into any off the court trouble during his time here and he did a lot for the community of Indianapolis. Why there is so much hatred for JO is still baffling to me. He wasn't perfect and he made mistakes (he complained way to much to the officials, IMO) but if you're really looking at the entire situation with a wide angled lens instead of zooming in on one player, it's easy to see that he was given the responsibility to try and lead a bunch of selfish teammates who kept getting into trouble off the court and on the court. While he was doing what he was supposed to do off and on the court, his teammates were:

    *Missing and arriving late to practices (multiple knuckelheads)
    *missing team flights (Artest)
    *getting suspended for bumping Pat Riley, breaking cameras in MSG and pictures at Conseco Fieldhouse (Artest)
    *getting benched in favor of Kenny Anderson for insubordination (Tinsley)
    *arguing with the coach during a game and getting benched (Artest, Tinsley, Jackson on different occasions)
    *hitting Rip Hamilton in the face and earning a flagrant foul during game 6 of the ECF with the game tied at 59-59 and less than four minutes to play - http://www.nba.com/games/20040601/INDDET/recap.html (Artest)
    *Going into the stands, inciting a riot (JO never left the floor), getting yourself and other players into legal trouble, and ruining a promising season (Artest and Jackson)
    *Stabbing the team in the back that loyally stood by you by complaining about needing time off to promote an album and then demanding a trade. (Artest)
    *Were getting into shootouts with thugs outside a strip club (Tinsley and Jackson)
    *Getting into a spat outside a night club, then at a gas station, and then being chased through downtown while being shot at (Tinsley)
    *Getting suspended by the team for being arrested on a charge of possession of marijuana and associating with a known murderer at large (Shawne Williams)
    *Getting suspended by the NBA for marijuana use during the season (Harrison)
    *Getting suspended by the team for destroying property in the Spurs guest locker room (Harrison)

    These are just the confirmed incidents that we know happened. Who knows what other types of buffoonery took place that the media never got wind of.
    Oh, there are a few stories out there about Jermaine getting into it with head coaches, some incident over a cell phone and a few other things too IIRC. He kept his nose clean when it came to the law, but he was no angel.
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  34. #122
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Is it really that difficult to browse thru the thread yourself ??
    I have read it. No one has placed an actual value on it, so I was asking where he thought he saw someone put a value on it. It looks like it's easier to just claim someone is overvaluing something, and then dismiss their point that way, so you don't have to actually address what was said.

    If the claim is that team chemistry is overvalued, I think it would be pertitent to the conversation to measure just how much value has been placed on chemistry and then we can properly evaluate it. But that would take finding where the disagreement lies. So that's my question, who is overvaluing team chemistry, if that's what people are doing?
    Last edited by Since86; 12-27-2013 at 03:27 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  35. #123
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Everyone knows where I stand on DWalsh, so it is rather useless for me to even make the same arguments I've made thousands of times - or even convince people that I really do believe that how players behave and the opportunities they have passed his expertise and expectations by.

    I will, however, point out the irony of excoriating Walsh for trading a discontented Antonio Davis for a high draft pick and therefore being the cause of losing the championship in the 2000 NBA finals and then excoriating Walsh for not blowing up the 61-win 2003-2004 team that reached the Eastern Conference Finals, keeping discontented players and therefore being the cause of the brawl that destroyed the hope of the Pacers winning a championship.
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  36. #124
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Everyone knows where I stand on DWalsh, so it is rather useless for me to even make the same arguments I've made thousands of times - or even convince people that I really do believe that how players behave and the opportunities they have passed his expertise and expectations by.

    I will, however, point out the irony of excoriating Walsh for trading a discontented Antonio Davis for a high draft pick and therefore being the cause of losing the championship in the 2000 NBA finals and then excoriating Walsh for not blowing up the 61-win 2003-2004 team that reached the Eastern Conference Finals, keeping discontented players and therefore being the cause of the brawl that destroyed the hope of the Pacers winning a championship.
    I havn't really commented on nor do I have particularly strong feelings about Walsh and the post finals rebuild. I think overall he did a decent job taking advantage of the opportunities at hand and getting the team back to relevance pretty quickly. It didn't work out obviously but in my mind that was every bit as much if not more on the coaches and players as it was on Walsh.

    The Bender trade on the other hand still grinds my gears badly. At the time of the trade I was very much for it because the talk coming out of the Pacers camp was that Bender was a Garnett type player. I had just spent 3-years living in MN and watching Garnett develop and at that time Garnett was Paul George on PED's. A huge 3 (who could slide over to 4) that was the single most disruptive & effective defensive force in basketball. In addition to that Garnett rebounded at an extremely high rate. Exactly the type of player that late 90's Pacers team needed.

    A guy didn't have to watch Bender long to see he was nothing like KG. He was a 6' 11" jump shooter whose style of play almost completely negated his athleticism on both ends of the court. He was also a guy who had no concept of what it took to play big time NBA defense. It was one last Walsh reach on an offensive player that was never going address any of the issues that lead to that teams playoff shortcomings.

    The problem wasn't that Walsh traded AD for a high draft pick it was that he traded him for Bender.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 12-27-2013 at 04:29 PM.

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  38. #125
    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Oh, there are a few stories out there about Jermaine getting into it with head coaches, some incident over a cell phone and a few other things too IIRC. He kept his nose clean when it came to the law, but he was no angel.
    You're right. I forgot about that issue with the cell phone. He took a call from someone in charge with his night club about some emergency. I don't think he was ever disciplined for it though. That's very mild compared to some of the stuff the other guys were doing and unlike the other players he still had a good reputation around the league when he was traded. Getting TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and Roy Hibbert for him was considered a pretty good haul at the time and 5 years later it looks like a fantastic trade.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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