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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I think you really need to add one more, Stephen Jackson. As someone else once said, he is the accelerant. The others may have started the camp fire, but it was Stephen Jackson spraying gasoline everywhere that turned it into a forest fire. Without him the Brawl is stopped as soon as Fred Jones, Jeff Foster, or whoever else who followed Artest grabs him and calms him down. Instead you had Jackson running up to defend Artest by throwing the first punch. Or as he described in an interview maybe a year ago. He assumed some guys who were walking out of the strip club behind Tinsley were going to start something. So he decided to start it for them.

    Honestly I think the team could have survived if it was just JO and Artest not getting along, and Reggie taking a backseat as the leader of the team. It just couldn't survive those two issues, and Jackson.
    I agree about Jackson. The ironic thing is that after his suspension ended, he came back and played some really solid ball alongside Reggie. JO got hurt in early March and didn't comeback until the end of the season, and Artest was obviously suspended the entire year. Tinsley also missed a ton of time that season. It was vintage Reggie, Stephen Jackson, Anthony Johnson, and the return of Dale Davis that gave that team a serious spark down the stretch of the season and propelled them into the playoffs. Reggie and S-Jax were a pretty lethal combo on the wings down the stretch that year.

    Jackson and Artest have each won championships with other franchises and have obviously shown that they can succeed in a stable environment. The problem with those mid 2000's teams is that the personalities were a toxic mix and there was no stable veteran presence to cancel them out. As beast23 mentioned, Reggie deferred too much until his farewell tour when he went out with a bang by taking on a more primary role.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    +77

    Our margin in the last three games.
    The Heat is the only team I believe can beat us in a 7 game series and if Lance brings it against them I don't think the Heat can beat us. Very exciting time to be a Pacer fan. For all of us who have survived the last decade, this is the reward.

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  5. #53

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    I, for one, do not believe the Heat can beat the Pacers in a 7 game series. Not even close. OKC is the team that I would be most worried about. I think by the time the playoffs come, the Pacers, with no serious injury problems, and Granger filling the 6th man role in a manner he is comfortable with, the Pacers will be unbeatable by any of these teams this year.

    Its our year guys, deal with it.

  6. #54
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree about Jackson. The ironic thing is that after his suspension ended, he came back and played some really solid ball alongside Reggie. JO got hurt in early March and didn't comeback until the end of the season, and Artest was obviously suspended the entire year. Tinsley also missed a ton of time that season. It was vintage Reggie, Stephen Jackson, Anthony Johnson, and the return of Dale Davis that gave that team a serious spark down the stretch of the season and propelled them into the playoffs. Reggie and S-Jax were a pretty lethal combo on the wings down the stretch that year.

    Jackson and Artest have each won championships with other franchises and have obviously shown that they can succeed in a stable environment. The problem with those mid 2000's teams is that the personalities were a toxic mix and there was no stable veteran presence to cancel them out. As beast23 mentioned, Reggie deferred too much until his farewell tour when he went out with a bang by taking on a more primary role.
    Look no further for proof that life is not always fair than to see Artest with a ring and Reggie without...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Every time JO played Duncan, Garnett, WEbber, and young Sheed he had fits scoring. But boy he could score on Robert Horry and Antoine Walker.
    I don't remember him struggling against Duncan, Garnett, or Webber... at least not scoring against them. I had the opportunity to see him play against each of those guys live and he put up big numbers against them. Sheed and Cliff Robinson always had his number but they were both fantastic post defenders and they knew JO's every move from playing together in Portland and working out together in the summer.

    All the JO bashing that happens around here is sad. If you want to knock JO for being a diva or primadonna, for being a bad leader, or for his cornrows and tatoos be my guest. He had All-NBA talent and he was a great rim-protector as well. David West is a better fit for this team but let's not act like JO was some scrub that never won any games and playoff series for the Pacers.

    Since we're revisiting history and getting things off our chest, I feel like I should get this off my chest. Looking back on it now, I now think that team never really had a chance to win the championship even if the brawl had never happened. The Pacers brass broke the "Only 1 Knucklehead" rule and were badly burned by it.

    Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, and Rick Carlisle to a lesser degree share some of the blame for being way too lenient on that team and creating the "monster" that was that locker room culture. Reggie should've never tried to encourage JO to become the leader of that team either. If I was coach I would've made it clear that as long as Reggie is on the team, he was the Alpha male. Hindsight is 20/20 and with that I can see that the team with Tinsley, Artest, Stephen Jackson, and JO was a chemistry disaster waiting to happen. If Larry Bird and Reggie Miller couldn't even lead that team, how can anyone expect JO to?

    Another little thing that often gets overlooked is that when SJax and Tinsley were both having their stripclub/nightclub shootouts, JO was not with them. In fact, JO didn't really hang with any of the players that were constantly getting into trouble off the court but some of you Pacers fans always heap the blame on him. If I worked with a no-defense-playing sieve like Jamaal Tinsley and a chucking play breaker like SJax or Artest, I'd be upset at times too.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 12-26-2013 at 09:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  10. #56

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    JO Skill is 88
    West is 80

    JO chemistry makeup is 73
    West chemistry makeup is 93.
    These numbers are from ????????????????

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    No way in hell JO was more skilled than David West that is blasphemy. JO in his prime a better player? Ok I will accept that. More skilled?? No way.

    Look up skilled big men in the dictionary and David West will certainly be one of the first names on the list. The footwork he displays is just marvelous.

  13. #58
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    No way in hell JO was more skilled than David West that is blasphemy. JO in his prime a better player? Ok I will accept that. More skilled?? No way.

    Look up skilled big men in the dictionary and David West will certainly be one of the first names on the list. The footwork he displays is just marvelous.
    Yep. JO had some skills, but that fadeaway jumper seemed to become his mainstay, and it never was very reliable. West is money, and just an all around more reliable scorer in general.

    But JO was a ginormous athlete, a fantastic rim protector and rebounder. He wasn't the leader we were looking for, but he was just a pleasure to watch on the floor in many ways.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Another little thing that often gets overlooked is that when SJax and Tinsley were both having their stripclub/nightclub shootouts, JO was not with them. In fact, JO didn't really hang with any of the players that were constantly getting into trouble off the court but some of you Pacers fans always heap the blame on him. If I worked with a no-defense-playing sieve like Jamaal Tinsley and a chucking play breaker like SJax or Artest, I'd be upset at times too.
    I agree with this. It's too bad JO gets so associated with the Knuckleheads. He was not one of them. While not the greatest leader we could have asked for, he was about as good of a solid citizen as you could ask for, and that should be appreciated more around here.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    No way in hell JO was more skilled than David West that is blasphemy. JO in his prime a better player? Ok I will accept that. More skilled?? No way.

    Look up skilled big men in the dictionary and David West will certainly be one of the first names on the list. The footwork he displays is just marvelous.
    Agreed. David West is a very skilled player. He's a great outlet passer, a fundamentally sound defender, and on offense he's a many of 100 moves. His face up game is way better than JO's ever was and because he's one of the toughest players I've ever seen, he can score through contact better.

    The advantages I'd give JO were his talent, athleticism, defense, and ability to draw fouls. He was excellent at getting deep post position and scoring with his back to the basket. Teams would double-team him nearly every game to get the ball out of his hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    If I worked with a no-defense-playing sieve like Jamaal Tinsley and a chucking play breaker like SJax or Artest, I'd be upset at times too.
    I would at least hope you'd be level headed enough to be upset at their stupidity, not upset about your touches, like JO. This is a guy that had a lockerroom melt down about Rick's system 7 games into a season. I would have loved to see JO call them out publically for all their crap, but he was more worried about getting the ball on the elbow.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree about Jackson. The ironic thing is that after his suspension ended, he came back and played some really solid ball alongside Reggie. JO got hurt in early March and didn't comeback until the end of the season, and Artest was obviously suspended the entire year. Tinsley also missed a ton of time that season. It was vintage Reggie, Stephen Jackson, Anthony Johnson, and the return of Dale Davis that gave that team a serious spark down the stretch of the season and propelled them into the playoffs. Reggie and S-Jax were a pretty lethal combo on the wings down the stretch that year.

    Jackson and Artest have each won championships with other franchises and have obviously shown that they can succeed in a stable environment. The problem with those mid 2000's teams is that the personalities were a toxic mix and there was no stable veteran presence to cancel them out. As beast23 mentioned, Reggie deferred too much until his farewell tour when he went out with a bang by taking on a more primary role.
    The biggest reason that Stephen Jackson played so well after Artest and JO were gone, IMHO, is because Reggie was the unquestioned leader and Dale Davis had his back completely in the event one of those other guys had any delusions of grandeur and tried to start any foolishness.

    I totally agree that Reggie should've never given up his role as leader of the Pacers. However, I now believe that team was never going to amount to anything during the playoffs because they had too many players that wouldn't listen to any sort of authority figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    And also I classify players who get into fist fights with their teammates, especially crazy teammates that you know you have no shot of making sane, a knucklehead.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Since we're revisiting history and getting things off our chest, I feel like I should get this off my chest. Looking back on it now, I now think that team never really had a chance to win the championship even if the brawl had never happened. The Pacers brass broke the "Only 1 Knucklehead" rule and were badly burned by it.

    Yeah, even if the brawl wouldn't have happened, I don't think that team wins the championship. That team was built on a foundation of sand and something else would have happened. I don't think they could have actually knocked Detroit off in a series. That Pistons team had exceptional mental toughness. I don't think we would have ever been able to close them out.

  25. #65
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    JO was mentally weak and lazy on the court.
    I've never seen a supposed 'star' centerpiece player get taken out of his game as JO would be. You could literally see the defending player get in his head and watch him lose his rhythm and knocked off his spot.

    Also, when you hear people talking about a player that does all the little things that don't show up on a stat sheet.... They don't mean JO. He couldn't be bothered with the little things.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that when Bird was officially and unquestionably in charge that a JO trade finally happened. He might've wanted out as bad as Bird wanted him out but unlike Walsh there was no way Bird would try and keep him.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    That whole team could be summarized by one word....selfish. The antithesis of today's team.
    {o,o}
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think it's a coincidence that when Bird was officially and unquestionably in charge that a JO trade finally happened. He might've wanted out as bad as Bird wanted him out but unlike Walsh there was no way Bird would try and keep him.
    If Bird would have taken over in 2007, JO would have been traded in 2007. If Bird would have taken over in 2006, JO would have been traded in 2006. If Bird would have taken over in 2005......well, I think you get the point.

    Trading JO was always the first thing that Bird was going to do if Walsh ever got out of the way. We could have netted some serious assets for him if we had traded him a couple of years earlier. As it stands, we were fortunate as hell that we got the 17th draft pick in our package for him, which turned out to be our franchise center who anchors our defense. We basically traded Jermaine O'Neal for Roy Hibbert. It's hard to type that with a straight face. Thanks, Legend.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    JO was mentally weak and lazy on the court.
    I've never seen a supposed 'star' centerpiece player get taken out of his game as JO would be. You could literally see the defending player get in his head and watch him lose his rhythm and knocked off his spot.

    Also, when you hear people talking about a player that does all the little things that don't show up on a stat sheet.... They don't mean JO. He couldn't be bothered with the little things.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that when Bird was officially and unquestionably in charge that a JO trade finally happened. He might've wanted out as bad as Bird wanted him out but unlike Walsh there was no way Bird would try and keep him.
    I will always believe-though I have no concrete proof-that soon after Bird arrived on the scene and having a chance to get an up close and personal look at JO, that he wouldve preferred to have traded JO and built the team around the other guys along with the significant pieces he couldve gotten back in trade...I think Bird knew JO wasnt cut out to be a leader or face of a franchise and that having him around-especially at a max deal-would eventually fail...and ill always believe Walsh vetoed the idea...

    friggen walsh...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    I will always believe-though I have no concrete proof-that soon after Bird arrived on the scene and having a chance to get an up close and personal look at JO, that he wouldve preferred to have traded JO and built the team around the other guys along with the significant pieces he couldve gotten back in trade...I think Bird knew JO wasnt cut out to be a leader or face of a franchise and that having him around-especially at a max deal-would eventually fail...and ill always believe Walsh vetoed the idea...

    friggen walsh...
    I think that's pretty believable. JO was "Walsh's guy". He traded the ever popular Dale Davis for him and then gave him a max contract a few years later. JO was the centerpiece of Walsh's post Finals rebuilding effort. I don't think that he ever wanted to admit that JO wasn't the right guy to lead the franchise, because that would have been admitting that his post Finals rebuilding effort wasn't a success. It took someone else in Bird to finally cut the cord.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    This probably needs its own thread... or not asked at all even... but:

    What would the rebuilding process have been like had Walsh stepped aside on a schedule as originally thought to be planned versus hanging around after the brawl? The word was that Walsh didn't want to leave the team in that condition and with those problems. But arguably the things that happened in that period didn't really help and some things could be argued to have made it worse.

    Do we make the albatross contract tradeoff of taking Dunn and Murphy back for Sjax or is that handled differently? With a different direction in the FO does Reggie still retire when he does and does Dale Davis hang around another season after his short return? Do we move JO sooner when he still had solid trade value and load up on assets that way? Do we move Tinsley or handle him differently before things got out of control? Is the Artest situation handled differently where we are able to do what we want with him on our terms? Are we able to fix the team instead of needing to jettison Carlisle in hopes a new voice can change things? Do we even get to O'Brien if we fixed the team at its core first?

    IOW would we have addressed core problems head on and shortened the dark ages or did we just have to go through that period no matter what? As far as Bird 'not being ready yet' IMHO Bird would've done what he always did and made sure to surround himself with a prepared staff on the same page as him. At least in a business/technical sense. So as far as navigating the waters of contracts and that type of thing I think it's safe to assume Bird would've had a righthand man of his own choosing fairly quickly. So I don't see an argument as Walsh was needed for that as all that convincing. The question is more whether Bird would've been proactive enough to steered out of the dark ages even sooner without Walsh's help.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Do we really have to go back to rewriting history to make Donnie something horrible and suck in order to build up Bird even more? What do you think would have been done differently if Donnie had stepped down immediately? Not made any trades and told the Pacers' sponsors to just suck it up and keep writing checks? Larry Bird would have NOT drafted Shawne Williams? Larry Bird would have NOT hired Jim O'Brien? Reggie Miller would have NOT retired? Jermaine O'Neil would have NOT been injured?
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do we really have to go back to rewriting history to make Donnie something horrible and suck in order to build up Bird even more? What do you think would have been done differently if Donnie had stepped down immediately? Not made any trades and told the Pacers' sponsors to just suck it up and keep writing checks? Larry Bird would have NOT drafted Shawne Williams? Larry Bird would have NOT hired Jim O'Brien? Reggie Miller would have NOT retired? Jermaine O'Neil would have NOT been injured?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do we really have to go back to rewriting history to make Donnie something horrible and suck in order to build up Bird even more?
    Don't be silly... We don't need to rewrite anything for that!

    What do you think would have been done differently if Donnie had stepped down immediately?
    Traded JO. Once that happens it would change so many things that I couldn't begin to guess what would happen next.


    Not made any trades and told the Pacers' sponsors to just suck it up and keep writing checks?
    Don't know that it would get to that because a JO trade would've changed everything about the team.

    Larry Bird would have NOT drafted Shawne Williams?
    Maybe... maybe not... Changing the team at it's root would've changed so many dynamics that it would not just have affected draft position but needs as well.

    Larry Bird would have NOT hired Jim O'Brien?
    If the team was fixed then hiring O'Brien might've been unnecessary even if the firing of Carlisle still happened. Which itself would be in question in this scenario.

    Reggie Miller would have NOT retired?
    Maybe maybe not... We know Reggie had had enough of the existing Pacers lockerroom. We don't know if the promise of massive changes, especially if they addressed some of his concerns would've made any difference or if he'd just grown tired of the grind and uncertainty.

    Jermaine O'Neil would have NOT been injured?
    It could've been injured with someone else.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I don't remember him struggling against Duncan, Garnett, or Webber... at least not scoring against them. I had the opportunity to see him play against each of those guys live and he put up big numbers against them. Sheed and Cliff Robinson always had his number but they were both fantastic post defenders and they knew JO's every move from playing together in Portland and working out together in the summer.
    .
    I remember him struggling.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=garneke01



    Take what conclusions from that. Revisiting this in stats is different. JO struggled is what I remember. I am not looking at Duncans. And the reason why is because it is not going to matter what stats say, it is what we chose to remember. I think JO struggled against comparable talent.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    These numbers are from ????????????????
    From my own opinion. Sorry I should have said that. Even though, within context, it seemed obvious. It is hard to determine the value of chemistry, even though we are seeing the value now.

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