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Thread: How do we keep Lance?

  1. #176
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/q-and-larry-bird-2013

    I never worry about that. If Lance isn't here, we'll plug somebody else in. I don't know what's going to happen this summer. We want to keep him and he wants to be here. This is the best environment for him. We will make him a great offer, an offer that I think is very fair. If you look at our books, how does anyone know what's going to happen in the summer. How do they know we're not going to make trades or have more money or less money. We will try to sign Lance, but I don't worry about it. If Lance is not here, we'll get somebody else.
    Thanks for the plug, I missed that article. A lot of great stuff in there. I especially liked the info (agent and Bird talk) on Hibbert and drafting him at 17.
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    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  2. #177
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by khaos01207 View Post
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    I will lose every shred of respect I have for herbie if he lets lance walk.
    That would say to me he is more in for a quick buck here and there than succeeding as a franchise.
    When you are that rich, what the hell difference Is a couple million dollars, seriously.
    Someone would have to post the details but I am certain the City is paying to operate the Fieldhouse and I believe more is involved than just those payments as well. Difficult to ask Simon to pay an NBA luxury tax when the taxpayers of the city of Indy foot the bill.

    I believe Bird when he says this team will not pay the tax. Some team will overpay Lance and he will not be the same player he was here. NBA careers can change on a dime.

    Bird made it clear he will replace those players we cannot afford. Cross that bridge when we get to it in the offseason.


    Lance is a darn good player but I am not ready to see the Pacers overpay until Lance provides a significant uptick in consistency and demonstrates more maturity. Lance's antics do not bother me but I agree with UB. Pacers are promoting a family atmosphere. I don't think Parents appreciate those types of things in front of children. Possibly why Vogel and co expressed displeasure w Lance.

    We are not that far removed from the Brawl.

    on the court Lance still has way too many careless turnovers.. tossing the ball carelessly away way too often. W that said I hope we can retain Lance but Pacers have to do whats in the best interest of the Franchise.

  3. #178
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    there are two options here, Lance signs for a max of 6 p/a and we sign DG to a near min contract (provding both want to) or we lose Lance and keep DG.

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    No idea why this needs to be another pro v against discussion that is absolutely turning this place in a horrible board just because 4 or 5 people want to give Lance a PG like status and contract, despite what you want, it is not going to happen.

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  5. #179
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    Nah, he didn't say all that. There's no reason to say all that. It's waaaaaaay to early to be drawing lines in the sand.

    And that's not the kind of "matching" that's being discussed. If Lance wants to be a Pacer then his agent will bring the best offer to the Pacers to see if they're willing to come up on their offer. That's how negotiations work, there's no reason to expect Lance's case to be any different.
    I said that I think that's what he's saying. You can't read a quote like "If Lance isn't here, we'll plug somebody else in." and jump to the conclusion that he means we'll match any offer he gets and worry about the LT later. You didn't hear Larry say that about Paul George or Hibbert.

  6. #180

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    I can't understand how Lance plays the style of basketball that he does and only averages 2 free throw attempts per game. James Harden is over 4x that rate, and he just runs into people on purpose.

    Is it a lack of respect? Lack of a beard? Something is amiss.

  7. #181
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Didn't Bird say in that interview something like he wanted to keep Lance, but he wasn't going overboard to do it?
    What I meant is that Bird's valuation of Lance is probably higher than that of any other GM's. So I think we'll match any "reasonable" offer. Doesn't mean that another team might not make an overpay offer for Lance, knowing that's the only way to get him off the Pacers. In which case, the Pacers might (correctly) decide not to play that game.

    For people thinking that Granger will be a cheap fallback should Lance get overpayed - I'm thinking that he's going to get an offer in the $8-10m range too, depending on how well he plays this season. So he might not be all that cheaper, and definitely not a minimum level guy.

  8. #182

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I said that I think that's what he's saying. You can't read a quote like "If Lance isn't here, we'll plug somebody else in." and jump to the conclusion that he means we'll match any offer he gets and worry about the LT later. You didn't hear Larry say that about Paul George or Hibbert.
    But I never said "we'll match any offer he gets". You construed it that way. I didn't say anything like that at all. That would be a silly thing to say.

    But for the record, the Pacers made what they considered a fair offer to Hibbert. And when the market proved to be higher, they met the market price. We won't know till next year what they'll do with Lance. And I don't think Larry knows either. I think you should focus on this statement: "If you look at our books, how does anyone know what's going to happen in the summer. How do they know we're not going to make trades or have more money or less money. We will try to sign Lance, but I don't worry about it."

  9. #183
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    To answer the question of this thread. How do we keep Lance? Well, we pay him enough to stay. That's probably going to be about 8M/yr. The bottom line is, I think we find a way to do that. If it means trading to shed salary (and that can be done btw), we will do it. The Pacers are not going to let him go and his value to the team is probably higher than everyone except Paul, Roy and maybe West. IF Granger gets his game on and it's clear he's totally back, things will get more interesting and the decision becomes more difficult. But no. George Hill and Scola will be dished like another Lance Stephenson assist if necessary to get Born Ready re-signed.

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  11. #184
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    I first thought that a good starting point would be 6-7 million a year but as the season has progressed I would like to see an 8-9 million for 4 years. I think if it comes down to Lance or Danny they will keep Lance. I really like Danny a lot but after this year is it fair for him to be stuck on the bench when he could start for other teams.

  12. #185

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    I think all the tension between Larry and Herb is over spending and the LT. Lance is one of the more exciting players because he excels in at least 3 aspects of the game so he fills seats. Surely going over the LT and not by much can be kept to a year or two at the worst. I would definitely trade Hill and sign a lower cost PG to keep Lance. Hill keeps the team stabilized and balanced but as an assist man he leaves something to be desired. Assists come from the troika of George, Hill, and Stephenson. Lose Lance and your assists have to come from the other two and that's not enough. So there are several options-trades or dip over the LT for a year or two. I think Cope will be the first domino to fall as some teams like LAL could use him.
    Last edited by speakout4; 12-25-2013 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    If we had the chance to move Copeland right now to a west coast team without giving anything to sweeten the deal I'd be in favor of it. Something like Copeland for a scrub with an expiring contract, or possibly a far off 2cd. round pick. That would be enough to be able to offer Lance the fair contract offer that Larry brought up. I'd never want to move George Hill to keep Lance. All I really want Larry to do is keep an eye on the following year when Hibbert opts out, we need to keep another 4-5 mil free for that when it happens. Sadly that's the same year Scola is up which might be where Hibbert's money comes from. We still have a lot of time for Lance to establish what his value will be and to see if Granger might be a viable plan B or not. One thing is almost certain, we'll be less deep as the next few years unfold.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    It almost seems kind of moot to even attempt to guess what Lance might be worth when he re-signs this summer. Right now, he has had three straight exceptional games and everyone believes, based on his recent performance, that he is worth a huge contract. However, the next time Lance goes into a shooting slump or suffers from a lack of focus or excessive turnovers for a few games, half the board will cut the previous estimation by 40% and the debate will reach new heights.

    And this roller coaster will likely carry forward throughout the entire season. Unless, of course Lance finds some level of performance that he is able to consistently maintain. Lance is a very talented young player still finding his way. He is going to have great games where he is our best player on the floor. And, he's going to have games where he stinks up the place and we are all begging for Granger to be inserted at SF so George can be switched to SG, with Lance going to the bench.

    I think the bottom line is that Lance's payday is not going to be determined by the great games he has or the games where he is missing in action, but instead by whatever production he is able to provide on a consistent basis. If he wants to be paid as an upper level starting SG should be, proof of consistency is the key.

    If he is able to do that, Bird will be willing to take some pretty extreme measures to assure that Lance's demands are met and that he remains a Pacer for another 5 years.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Here is a great article about what Lance brings to the Pacers even Hibbert think he is an all star:

    http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles...imate-x-factor

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Here is a great article about what Lance brings to the Pacers even Hibbert think he is an all star:

    http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles...imate-x-factor
    Great article. Bleacher Report is getting better and better. Lance is definitely a candidate for MIP. His improvement this season has been phenomenal. He has certainly surpassed my expectations. And you know what the best part is?

    He is improving game by game. His mid-range game is getting better lately both in quality and quantity. Let's take a look at his shooting splits from last season -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2013/

    He took 767 shots in total (both RS and playoffs) and only 232 of them weren't at the rim or from 3. He shot 33.2% on those shots (77/232).

    Now, let's take a look at his shot chart for this season ->
    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...de=performance

    He has attempted 314 shots so far and 96 of them come from in between the rim and the 3 point line. His percentage so far? 36.4% (35/96).

    The improvement is not huge but it's there. It's improvements like these that can open up his game more and help our team a ton.
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  19. #190
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    You could be right, I would love to get a 2nd rounder for Copeland and free up 3 million to help resign Lance.
    Sorry to be a little slow here, but somebody help me. We can't trade Copeland for a second rounder, can we? Don't trades have to match financially? Or is Cope's second year a team option?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    While everyone is singing Bird's praises for believing in Lance since the beginning, apparently he didn't COMPELETELY believe, because he structured a four year contract that can't be matched and also couldn't be extended in a feasible way. I was championing Lance when he first came to summer league, and I would not have structured a contract for him like we have now. It's going to be the difference betweeen $4-$6 million for 4-5 years and $8-$12. Probably closer to $12.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 12-26-2013 at 10:02 AM.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  22. #192
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Didn't Bird say in that interview something like he wanted to keep Lance, but he wasn't going overboard to do it?
    Yes. But you always have to figure in GM speech for these kinds of things.

    Is this Bird's true intention, or is he telling other GM's that if they give a really hight offer—in order to hamper our franchise— they will have to live with it?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  23. #193

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    While everyone is singing Bird's praises for believing in Lance since the beginning, apparently he didn't COMPELETELY believe, because he structured a four year contract that can't be matched and also couldn't be extended in a feasible way. I was championing Lance when he first came to summer league, and I would not have structured a contract for him like we have now. It's going to be the difference betweeen $4-$6 million for 4-5 years and $8-$12. Probably closer to $12.
    Not necessarily. If Lance had blown up like this in year three instead of year four, the fourth year on the contract would have been very smart to delay the big money for a year. It's a risk/reward that is based as much on timing as it is on general belief in a player.

    The other big difference between a three year deal vs four is of course restricted vs unrestricted, but I don't see that as much of a problem in this case. The only times you worry about that is if a player wants to go to another team. In this case, where it is almost assured that Lance would pick Indiana if the money were equal, the difference is mostly meaningless. Maybe being restricted would limit his market a little bit because teams don't want to lock up their cap for three days on players they don't think they will get, but as we saw with Hibbert many times teams know whether teams are going to match before they even have to sign the players to that contract.

  24. #194

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    I am not sure what the norm is but I believe if a second round player is signed for 4 years the last year typically doesn't have a rfa label. This is the case of chandler Parson on the rockets as well where they will have to pay top dollar to keep him.

  25. #195

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Sorry to be a little slow here, but somebody help me. We can't trade Copeland for a second rounder, can we? Don't trades have to match financially? Or is Cope's second year a team option?

    If a team is under the cap, they can give the Pacers a TE for Copeland. Personally, I feel that scenario won't transpire. Copeland would have to have a REAL VALUE for a team that is under the cap to tie up money on him when it could be used on a better more productive player. JMOAA

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  27. #196

    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Another possibility of getting some salary to use in re-signing Lance is if Copeland or whoever is traded for a player has an expiring contract. Something like that scenario I woiuld have to feel would have to be sweetened with picks.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Sorry to be a little slow here, but somebody help me. We can't trade Copeland for a second rounder, can we? Don't trades have to match financially? Or is Cope's second year a team option?
    Techincally, this can be done.....but the trade has to be with a Team that is at least $3+ mil under the Salary Cap. The problem is that there are very few Teams that are under the Salary Cap.....much less of those Teams very few that is going to take on Copeland and send back nothing more than a 2nd round pick ( or at most a $3+ mil Expiring contract ) unless they REALLY want him.
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  30. #198
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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Another possibility of getting some salary to use in re-signing Lance is if Copeland or whoever is traded for a player has an expiring contract. Something like that scenario I woiuld have to feel would have to be sweetened with picks.
    I agree the only way I see the Pacers moving Cope is if they add a pick.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Certainly an interesting thread to read given what Born Ready is accomplishing this season:

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...ers&highlight=

    Nice job, McKeyfan. Lance has been your guy since the 2010 Summer League.

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    Default Re: How do we keep Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I agree the only way I see the Pacers moving Cope is if they add a pick.
    It's a good thing we made that magazine cover and iPad presentation to sign him. We pulled out all of our tricks to sign a guy to a contract we might have to move to keep a core player. Not my favorite Pacer signing.

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