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Thread: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Sure, that's a reasonable guess. But what year would that be?

    It wasn't 2013... he was rehabbing the knee.
    It wasn't 2012... he was rehabbing the knee.
    It wasn't 2011... Paul George was working out with Danny and talked about how hard he was working.
    It wasn't 2010... Danny was already in shape from spending the summer playing on the Gold-winning FIBA team.
    Maybe 2009.
    It wasn't 2008... Danny won MIP and increased his scoring from 19.6 to 25.8ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2007... Danny increased his scoring from 13.9 to 19.6ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2006... Danny increased his scoring from 7.5 to 13.9ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2005... That was the season he was drafted. He was working all summer long.

    So is the theory that Danny didn't work out very hard in the summer of 2009? I don't have any way of knowing, but I can't argue against that. I don't think you can safely use that single data point to prove a trend, though.
    This is what I am getting at. i mean how much harder was Danny supposed to work. He already elevated his game to being the 2nd/ 3rd Best SF in the east. Who was on the Pacer teams from 06-2010.....nobody. You know what
    I'll even say that a guy like Paul Pierce was better than Danny in that period. But he had KG and Ray Allen still in their Primes! What the heck was Danny Granger supposed to accomplish in that 4 year span with the team and coach he had?
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    I sort of took it as tongue-in-cheek.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Seems like odd timing to me, but Bird was probably just being blunt. He's always seemed to a firm supporter of Granger, and I always thought it had to do with Granger's leadership, toughness, and work ethic so this seems a bit puzzling.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Sure, that's a reasonable guess. But what year would that be?

    It wasn't 2013... he was rehabbing the knee.
    It wasn't 2012... he was rehabbing the knee.
    It wasn't 2011... Paul George was working out with Danny and talked about how hard he was working.
    It wasn't 2010... Danny was already in shape from spending the summer playing on the Gold-winning FIBA team.
    Maybe 2009.
    It wasn't 2008... Danny won MIP and increased his scoring from 19.6 to 25.8ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2007... Danny increased his scoring from 13.9 to 19.6ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2006... Danny increased his scoring from 7.5 to 13.9ppg that season.
    It wasn't 2005... That was the season he was drafted. He was working all summer long.

    So is the theory that Danny didn't work out very hard in the summer of 2009? I don't have any way of knowing, but I can't argue against that. I don't think you can safely use that single data point to prove a trend, though.
    So you think it's merely a coincidence that his numbers in November and December are significantly worse than his numbers in January, February, March, and April?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    So you think it's merely a coincidence that his numbers in November and December are significantly worse than his numbers in January, February, March, and April?
    Could it be the level of competition and the adjustment that is needed when going from training camp to the start of the season? Some guys adjust quickly some guys don't?
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Him never learning how to dribble probably has something to do with Bird comments, good players usually add something to their game and I don't think Danny has added anything to his game in a long time, maybe that is why Bird is criticizing him.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    So you think it's merely a coincidence that his numbers in November and December are significantly worse than his numbers in January, February, March, and April?
    So we think it's coincidence that he came back every year better? Considering how good Danny was without, supposedly, not training that hard in the offseason, one can only imagine how good he would have been if he did work hard.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So we think it's coincidence that he came back every year better? Considering how good Danny was without, supposedly, not training that hard in the offseason, one can only imagine how good he would have been if he did work hard.
    He would have been Lebron James!
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    I really took this as more of Larry's dry humor than anything else. If not, you would think the national media would have jumped all over that comment and started baking up Granger trades left and right, but no.

    My guess is this was 70% Bird's dry humor, 15% truth, 15% motivational tactic.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    First of all, I read the article and Bird wasn't joking. He talked about not looking to trade Danny but he also said, ""But you never know. If the right thing came along that would help the franchise, I would have to look at it..."

    Also I think we should post the entire comment about Danny not working hard because Bird really went into detail about what he meant when he said that DG doesn't work hard enough during the offseason:

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Bird
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    "He doesn't work hard enough (in the offseason)," Bird said. "He's not a guy who'll push himself to the brink like a lot of our guys do. He works hard but he doesn't push himself. That's why he starts slow every year and he just works his way back."
    He also acknowledged that this year is a little different because he immediately followed up the above statement with this:

    [quote=Larry Bird]Now this year, he's been hurt, so it's a different deal.[/b]

    I think Bird really thinks that in the past, in particular during the lockout, Danny didn't work hard enough to push himself to improve his game and his conditioning. I don't think it's motivational because he's talking about the past. I just think he's stating his opinion. He's throwing Danny under the bus but I don't think it was done for any malicious reasons. Bird just answered the question and gave his opinion.

    At least he's acknowledged that a healthy Danny Granger in game shape is a game-changer for the Pacers.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    [QUOTE=naptownmenace;1757725]First of all, I read the article and Bird wasn't joking. He talked about not looking to trade Danny but he also said, ""But you never know. If the right thing came along that would help the franchise, I would have to look at it..."

    Also I think we should post the entire comment about Danny not working hard because Bird really went into detail about what he meant when he said that DG doesn't work hard enough during the offseason:



    He also acknowledged that this year is a little different because he immediately followed up the above statement with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Bird
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    Now this year, he's been hurt, so it's a different deal.[/b]

    I think Bird really thinks that in the past, in particular during the lockout, Danny didn't work hard enough to push himself to improve his game and his conditioning. I don't think it's motivational because he's talking about the past. I just think he's stating his opinion. He's throwing Danny under the bus but I don't think it was done for any malicious reasons. Bird just answered the question and gave his opinion.

    At least he's acknowledged that a healthy Danny Granger in game shape is a game-changer for the Pacers.
    I read it all, too, lol. Didn't make sense to call out Granger publicly, and knowing his dry sense of humor, I assumed tongue-in-cheek.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    You would think that with Granger coming back and looking much better compared to the 5 games he played last year during his comeback would make this discussion die down, but nope, Pacers Digests never forgets. Some of you guys should would be good English Teachers.


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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    He would have been Lebron James!
    Not athletic enough, unless you just mean a tier 1 SF instead of a tier 2 SF.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    So you think it's merely a coincidence that his numbers in November and December are significantly worse than his numbers in January, February, March, and April?
    I haven't looked at his numbers on a month-by-month basis before this evening, but since you put it out there, I went and checked BBREF. Eyeball test only; if you want to do advanced metrics you're more than welcome.

    Let's take 2013-2014 and 2012-2013 out of the discussion, because rehab is for quitters.
    Here's 2011: <LINK>. Danny's first-month scoring was pretty solid. First 5 games: 16, 21, 22, 11, 15.
    Here's 2010: <LINK>. Bad game against Philly, but other than that he had good numbers: 26, 33, 22, 7, 19.
    Here's 2009: <LINK>. Same thing. 31, 22, 18, 21, 22.

    I'll grant that I only took a quick glance, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I've also subscribed to the "Granger always starts cold" myth as well, but I'm just not seeing it in the numbers. Can you pull some spreadsheets together and show us your thinking?
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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    There's no excuse for your shooting to decline practically every year you've been in the league, unless you aren't constantly working on your shot like a professional should.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    There's no excuse for your shooting to decline practically every year you've been in the league, unless you aren't constantly working on your shot like a professional should.
    LOL you never heard of term increased usage? Player's usage goes up, shots go up. Defenses key on said player, shooting percentage declines. Its happens to every good player on a bad team.

    I swear some of you act the opposing teams players bear no equation into a another players effectiveness.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    LOL you never heard of term increased usage? Player's usage goes up, shots go up. Defenses key on said player, shooting percentage declines. Its happens to every good player on a bad team.

    I swear some of you act the opposing teams players bear no equation into a another players effectiveness.
    Lol actually you are wrong. Danny's fga per game have decreased every year since averaging 25ppg. As his fga, or usage, decreased, as did his fg%. Why? Because he began taking worse and worse shots, and continually failed to hit the open looks he did have.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Lol actually you are wrong. Danny's fga per game have decreased every year since averaging 25ppg. As his fga, or usage, decreased, as did his fg%. Why? Because he began taking worse and worse shots, and continually failed to hit the open looks he did have.
    LOL! NO you are the one who is wrong and now you are moving the goal post. You first said "There's no excuse for your shooting to decline practically every year you've been in the league." Now you say every year since averaging 25ppg. So which is it? LOL.

    Look Danny's usage went up every year prior to David West and George Hill joing the team. Usage does not equal FGA. Defenses key in on high usage players and make them less efficient. So yes his shoot percentage declined because defenses make adjustments, and take certain shots away.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    I wonder if a bad knee might lead to a drop in efficiency.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    LOL! NO you are the one who is wrong and now you are moving the goal post. You first said "There's no excuse for your shooting to decline practically every year you've been in the league." Now you say every year since averaging 25ppg. So which is it? LOL.

    Look Danny's usage went up every year prior to David West and George Hill joing the team. Usage does not equal FGA. Defenses key in on high usage players and make them less efficient. So yes his shoot percentage declined because defenses make adjustments, and take certain shots away.
    I do seem to recall using the word "practically", as in not every year but most years. Do I seriously need to be one of those "stats" guys and show you Granger's year by year fg%, fga, and usage rates? Yes, Granger's %s dropped some as soon as his usage and fga went up in his 25ppg year as compared to his first three years. Granger's usage and fga peaked in his 4th year in the league and then from that point forward, as his usage and fga continued to decrease, as did his %s. Meaning you cannot blame increased usage for his decline in shooting as he was still shooting at a decent clip in the year when he attempted his highest number of fga and had his highest usage.

  33. #46

    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    I think there's room for a factual statement here without saying that Danny doesn't have a good work ethic. When you look at guys like Hibbert and George, they not only add something basketball-related to their game (Hibbert's low post moves, Paul's shooting and dribbling), they are also killing themselves to improve strength and conditioning. If Danny spends all summer every summer working on becoming a better shooter, that would be reflected in his shooting stats, which historically, it has been. If, simultaneous to that, Danny isn't working on dribbling, posting up, and becoming a stronger, better conditioned, more explosive player, then defensively, he's not going to improve. He's not going to draw more fouls from the post and on drives, and he's not going to be in game shape when the season starts, because he's spent that time just focusing on shooting.

    Also, there's also the part where we don't hear about George and Hibbert building a bat cave or vacationing with a spouse in the off-season. That's not a slight on Danny, but it is indicative of the type of player each of these three guys wants to be.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    Also, there's also the part where we don't hear about George and Hibbert building a bat cave or vacationing with a spouse in the off-season. That's not a slight on Danny, but it is indicative of the type of player each of these three guys wants to be.
    I am pretty sure just about all of them vacation in the offseason, and it isn't like building a bat cave really takes up that much time. We also did here from Hibbert that he takes the first month easy before he starts to work on things.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    When you look at guys like Hibbert and George, they not only add something basketball-related to their game (Hibbert's low post moves, Paul's shooting and dribbling.
    In his last healthy offseason, Danny spent the summer adding a post game. It took about a month to really work it into the offense, but by the New Year it was really strong.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Well, it impresses the heck out of me how DG could get MIP by sucking worse every successive year. I'm also impressed that in spite of the revelation that OK players on bad teams never get picked by coaches for the All-Star Game that Danny convinced coaches to pick him for the ASG when he was only a mediocre player who looked good on a bad team. He may suck as an NBA player but he has a great future as a con man scam artist.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird on Granger: He doesn't work hard enough(in the offseason)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    In his last healthy offseason, Danny spent the summer adding a post game. It took about a month to really work it into the offense, but by the New Year it was really strong.
    I recall him coming back with that post game, but he rarely used it. I remember that because I wanted him to do it more. So, while an improvement we didn't realize too much value out of it.

    Really, Danny made huge strides the first several years in the league. But about 80% of his improvement was related to scoring or shooting. His second area of improvement was dribbling. He can now dribble all the way for a layup. One thing I've really been surprised by is that he's not better rebounding the ball. I would think with his body and length he'd be all over the boards. Instead, he has rather average rebound numbers for a big wing. Even so, he's still qualifies as a great NBA player IMO. He does most everything pretty well and shoots better than most wings.

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