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Thread: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    The officiating didn't necessarily cost us the game, we contributed a lot in blowing our lead.

    That last play without a doubt cost us the chance to play another 5 minutes. LeBron, Durant not getting that same call? Come on man. 2 Hands on a shooters waist? You can see the way Paul landed that he was pushed at least a little bit.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    The defensive holding call was in response to Harrison getting man handled. The NFL wants their offensive players to score. Just like the NBA wants their players to score. Just like the MLB wanted their home run hitters to score, therefore they turned a blind eye.

    Lebron James winning makes more money. It is a more sellable product. It isn't right. But it is what it is. If you don't like it watch high school bball.
    Sounds like the NBA will be in a world of trouble in 6-7 years when LeBron retires, if LeBron is the only way they can be a more sellable product.

    EDIT: And I do find it interesting that other leagues use offense, which applies to all teams and all players, to get people interested, while the NBA focuses on one, or just a handful, of players.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-19-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    For those of you who are upset at the no call... We're you as upset Reggio got away with such a blatant push of Jordan to hit that epic game winner?? I still feel like this just upset b/c you perceive that we got jipped when refs have habitually allowed the players "to play" as opposed to determine the outcome with calling a foul...
    I will accept that I have a double standard here. You are right...that Reggie call should have been called a foul...just like many of the Reggie "kick my leg out" fouls that he probably should have gotten when he did that.

    I guess my question to you is...where do we draw the line when it comes to letting the Players determine the outcome of the game?

    For myself...I can look at it from situation to situation. When a shooter is in the air like that where he is in his shooting motion....there is no way for us to know or tell whether the contact that PG24 felt from behind could have altered his shot enough to affect the outcome of the shot. Maybe LeDecision barely touched him and it would have made no difference....maybe he grabbed him enough where it did make a difference.

    Again, I go back to what I think this is....it was a REALLY BAD no-call on the part of the Refs.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Glad to see some valuable responses here this morning.

    I wanted to comment on Hicks earlier post, because he brought up something very valid.

    One of the major reasons why END of game officiating needs to be at the very least up to par with the rest of the game, is because quite frankly it is do or die time.

    A team can overcome a poor call in the first 40 minutes of a game, or even the first 46 or so minutes of a game, much more easily than they can in the last 1-2 minutes.

    Now, I am not calling for a double standard. A foul should be a foul whenever there is, well... A foul! But in particular, when you have a game that is close in the waning moments (again: NOT factoring in *why* it's close) - a missed call or a blatantly blown call has an insurmountable, often times game-ending quality to it. There simply is NO time left for the team on the short end of the stick to attempt to compensate for the officials doing their job poorly.

    Phree Refill made a great recent example of this. In the Detroit loss, Kyle Singler clearly committed a 5 second violation on that late inbounds pass. The Pacers had been trying to scratch and claw their way into that game, and they HAD forced a turnover with great coverage on the play. However, the referee gave Singler nearly a complete additional second to inbound the ball, and our team was not rewarded with a chance to get a needed basket. Had that happened in the second quarter, yes I would be frustrated. But the fact that it happened with very little time remaining and the Pacers desperately needing to force a turnover is simply INFURIATING.

    I fully realize that in the grand scheme of things this makes little difference. As Hicks said, you just need to come to accept stuff like this and move on, as fans there is nothing we can actually DO about it.

    My reason for posting this thread and questioning all this is just to figure out why so many fans take a negative attitude towards fans like myself and others who question the legitimacy of late-game officiating and its impact on a loss. I understand that we're all mad and frustrated that our team put themselves in a position to lose a game based on a referee, but looking at things in the long term, shouldn't we be more upset about the fact that we had a chance to win a game and it was nullified by something outside our control?
    The simple and most absolute solution to this problem is to require the refs to review every play that is at the end of a quarter, and give the officials the right to call a foul that they missed. You could either wipe away a game winner because of a blatant push off just prior to the shot. Or they could award Free Throws on fouls. This is the most absolute and fair way to handle the situation. So 4 times a game they must go over and look at the final play of the quarter, and it doesn't impact the flow of game or the TV broadcast.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    For myself...I can look at it from situation to situation. When a shooter is in the air like that where he is in his shooting motion....there is no way for us to know or tell whether the contact that PG24 felt from behind could have altered his shot enough to affect the outcome of the shot. Maybe LeDecision barely touched him and it would have made no difference....maybe he grabbed him enough where it did make a difference.

    Yep. Rules are objective guidelines to make everyone aware of what is and isn't acceptable. Not calling fouls by those rules are just as impactful as calling fouls that aren't actual fouls. If players, and only players, should decide games, then there is no need for referees.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I will accept that I have a double standard here. You are right...that Reggie call should have been called a foul...just like many of the Reggie "kick my leg out" fouls that he probably should have gotten when he did that.

    I guess my question to you is...where do we draw the line when it comes to letting the Players determine the outcome of the game?

    For myself...I can look at it from situation to situation. When a shooter is in the air like that where he is in his shooting motion....there is no way for us to know or tell whether the contact that PG24 felt from behind could have altered his shot enough to affect the outcome of the shot. Maybe LeDecision barely touched him and it would have made no difference....maybe he grabbed him enough where it did make a difference.

    Again, I go back to what I think this is....it was a REALLY BAD no-call on the part of the Refs.
    I don't know if there is necessarily an arbitrary line in the sand if you will... I believe it is case by case... But certainly give some leeway as long as it is applied fairly...

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    But certainly give some leeway as long as it is applied fairly...
    Aren't rules designed to ensure calls being applied fairly?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The simple and most absolute solution to this problem is to require the refs to review every play that is at the end of a quarter, and give the officials the right to call a foul that they missed. You could either wipe away a game winner because of a blatant push off just prior to the shot. Or they could award Free Throws on fouls. This is the most absolute and fair way to handle the situation. So 4 times a game they must go over and look at the final play of the quarter, and it doesn't impact the flow of game or the TV broadcast.

    This is a really great idea. I honestly think that it could do a lot of good.

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Aren't rules designed to ensure calls being applied fairly?
    In theory... but not in application...

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    This is a really great idea. I honestly think that it could do a lot of good.
    It would go a long way towards adding parity in the league because certain players would no longer get away with fouls at the end of the game.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    In theory... but not in application...
    Which applies to the other side as well. Rules not being applied fairly, give people legs to stand on, and without rules it cuts those legs completely off.

    I'm a stickler for rules. Without them, there would be chaos. If the rules are wrong, and leeway should be given during the very end of games, then the rules need to be rewritten instead of ignored.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    I always hear "let the players decided the game" and until the referees start shooting free throws, I would presume the players are shooting the free throws and thereby determining the outcome. But that is just silly old me.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The simple and most absolute solution to this problem is to require the refs to review every play that is at the end of a quarter, and give the officials the right to call a foul that they missed. You could either wipe away a game winner because of a blatant push off just prior to the shot. Or they could award Free Throws on fouls. This is the most absolute and fair way to handle the situation. So 4 times a game they must go over and look at the final play of the quarter, and it doesn't impact the flow of game or the TV broadcast.
    Except a play at the end means nothing more than the first possession of a game. They are literally valued exactly the same way. The end of quarter possessions aren't any more meaningful.

    If it were up to me, the only thing that could be reviewed would be end of quarter shots.

    Just let the game flow.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Glad to see some valuable responses here this morning.

    I wanted to comment on Hicks earlier post, because he brought up something very valid.

    One of the major reasons why END of game officiating needs to be at the very least up to par with the rest of the game, is because quite frankly it is do or die time.

    A team can overcome a poor call in the first 40 minutes of a game, or even the first 46 or so minutes of a game, much more easily than they can in the last 1-2 minutes.

    Now, I am not calling for a double standard. A foul should be a foul whenever there is, well... A foul! But in particular, when you have a game that is close in the waning moments (again: NOT factoring in *why* it's close) - a missed call or a blatantly blown call has an insurmountable, often times game-ending quality to it. There simply is NO time left for the team on the short end of the stick to attempt to compensate for the officials doing their job poorly.

    Phree Refill made a great recent example of this. In the Detroit loss, Kyle Singler clearly committed a 5 second violation on that late inbounds pass. The Pacers had been trying to scratch and claw their way into that game, and they HAD forced a turnover with great coverage on the play. However, the referee gave Singler nearly a complete additional second to inbound the ball, and our team was not rewarded with a chance to get a needed basket. Had that happened in the second quarter, yes I would be frustrated. But the fact that it happened with very little time remaining and the Pacers desperately needing to force a turnover is simply INFURIATING.

    I fully realize that in the grand scheme of things this makes little difference. As Hicks said, you just need to come to accept stuff like this and move on, as fans there is nothing we can actually DO about it.

    My reason for posting this thread and questioning all this is just to figure out why so many fans take a negative attitude towards fans like myself and others who question the legitimacy of late-game officiating and its impact on a loss. I understand that we're all mad and frustrated that our team put themselves in a position to lose a game based on a referee, but looking at things in the long term, shouldn't we be more upset about the fact that we had a chance to win a game and it was nullified by something outside our control?

    I disagree, what is this based on? Every play is equally weighted. If possessions in the first quarter only counted for half as much as those in the 4th quarter, I could see your point.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    I disagree, what is this based on? Every play is equally weighted. If possessions in the first quarter only counted for half as much as those in the 4th quarter, I could see your point.
    Well, my very next statement is me saying that I am not calling for a double standard.

    However, you have to also realize that in the context of an end-of-game situation, there is no 'second chance' for a team to make up for a lost possession, missed basket or made basket by the OTHER team that was the direct result of a missed/blown call.

    Now, in an ideal world, calls should be fair and even for the entire 48 minutes. But we all know this will never happen as long as human beings are officiating. With that being said, it's a lot easier for fans and maybe even the players/coaches to swallow a bad call in minute 15 of 48 as opposed to minute 48 of 48.

    Sorry to sound like a broken record here. I know that teams should not allow themselves to get into a position where a call can decide their fate. I get it, I get it...

    But just because they ARE in that situation, does not make them 'deserve' to have an opportunity to win any more or less.

    Which is my entire point.

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    Except a play at the end means nothing more than the first possession of a game. They are literally valued exactly the same way. The end of quarter possessions aren't any more meaningful.

    If it were up to me, the only thing that could be reviewed would be end of quarter shots.

    Just let the game flow.
    That is what I am saying, by play I mean the last shot attempt. I guess that is an important denotation to the rule. So in the case of last nights game. The last shot by PG would be reviewable even though there was 4 secs left on the shot clock because after the rebound Miami did not take a shot before the game ended.

    The real tricky part is how to handle the game clock fairly in that situation. If a foul is called on that shot attemp and PG sinks all 3 FT's and their is technically like 3secs left on the game clock still. I guess you allow another possession for the Heat.

    Or perhaps its up to teams to make sure that their final shot is at the buzzer and no way to add clock back on.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Well, my very next statement is me saying that I am not calling for a double standard.

    However, you have to also realize that in the context of an end-of-game situation, there is no 'second chance' for a team to make up for a lost possession, missed basket or made basket by the OTHER team that was the direct result of a missed/blown call.

    Now, in an ideal world, calls should be fair and even for the entire 48 minutes. But we all know this will never happen as long as human beings are officiating. With that being said, it's a lot easier for fans and maybe even the players/coaches to swallow a bad call in minute 15 of 48 as opposed to minute 48 of 48.

    Sorry to sound like a broken record here. I know that teams should not allow themselves to get into a position where a call can decide their fate. I get it, I get it...

    But just because they ARE in that situation, does not make them 'deserve' to have an opportunity to win any more or less.

    Which is my entire point.
    I agree. I think in general though refs tend to swallow their whistles a lot more when the game is on the line. You see it in all sports.

    Look, I don't think it was a foul on LeBron, and there is no way to no if the player roles were switched, if LeBron would get the call.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    That is what I am saying, by play I mean the last shot attempt. I guess that is an important denotation to the rule. So in the case of last nights game. The last shot by PG would be reviewable even though there was 4 secs left on the shot clock because after the rebound Miami did not take a shot before the game ended.

    The real tricky part is how to handle the game clock fairly in that situation. If a foul is called on that shot attemp and PG sinks all 3 FT's and their is technically like 3secs left on the game clock still. I guess you allow another possession for the Heat.

    Or perhaps its up to teams to make sure that their final shot is at the buzzer and no way to add clock back on.
    So basically a good solution instead of a bunch of specific rules is just to not review the last play of the game for fouls. If the Pacers foul the Heat on the the possession before the last possession of the game, that isn't reviewed. But 10 seconds later, when the Pacers have the ball, it is? Makes no sense.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    So basically a good solution instead of a bunch of specific rules is just to not review the last play of the game for fouls. If the Pacers foul the Heat on the the possession before the last possession of the game, that isn't reviewed. But 10 seconds later, when the Pacers have the ball, it is? Makes no sense.
    Its a great idea, its ensures that teams will not purposely foul on a potential game winner shot attempt at the end of the game. It keeps all parties honest at the end of the game. Key point, at the end of the game. Inside 2 minutes the existing replay rules apply.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    from the gif it is pretty easy to see that the hands of Lebron moved Paul dramatically and even twisted him to the side so much that you can see his number on the FRONT of his jersey before he lands:



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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    I feel like the standard for me is incompetence by referees. I would define that as things like not knowing the rules of the game, losing control of the game, making an absurd ruling even after replay, having officiating that is consistently one-sided.

    I don't think any of those happened last night. That last play was probably a foul. They should have called it and made a mistake. But officials are going to make mistakes. There were lots of tough plays to call during the game. Some went the Pacers way, some went the Heat way. There were some missed calls on both sides.

    It's a subjective standard, so I can understand why some might use it for more games than others. For example, I think the Colts-Bengals game, even while not being very close, is one where the officiating was rightly questioned because Triplette had plenty of time to look a replay and because he didn't follow the process right he made an awful decision.

    Even though the call last night had a bigger impact on the winner of the game, I don't think it is as deserving of criticism, because it was one call made at game speed that wasn't a mind numbingly awful no call. It's a harder degree of difficulty, and the harder of a call you get the more likely it is to be a legitimate mistake by a competent ref.

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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    I feel like the standard for me is incompetence by referees. I would define that as things like not knowing the rules of the game, losing control of the game, making an absurd ruling even after replay, having officiating that is consistently one-sided.

    I don't think any of those happened last night. That last play was probably a foul. They should have called it and made a mistake. But officials are going to make mistakes. There were lots of tough plays to call during the game. Some went the Pacers way, some went the Heat way. There were some missed calls on both sides.

    It's a subjective standard, so I can understand why some might use it for more games than others. For example, I think the Colts-Bengals game, even while not being very close, is one where the officiating was rightly questioned because Triplette had plenty of time to look a replay and because he didn't follow the process right he made an awful decision.

    Even though the call last night had a bigger impact on the winner of the game, I don't think it is as deserving of criticism, because it was one call made at game speed that wasn't a mind numbingly awful no call. It's a harder degree of difficulty, and the harder of a call you get the more likely it is to be a legitimate mistake by a competent ref.
    I get that bad calls even out over the course of the game most of the time, but with today's technology it is possible to ensure that no game ENDS on a bad call or blown call. Thats not asking for too much, and most fans would be in favor of having the game end on the up and up.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    That last play was probably a foul. They should have called it and made a mistake. But officials are going to make mistakes.
    The thing is, though. the league will not admit that it was a mistake.

    Why?

    Because there is a widespread acceptance of a philosophy wherein referees are allowed to ignore the rules of the game and decide, on their own, to not make a call that they would make in the previous 47 minutes and 55 seconds because "the players should decide the outcome"

    The acceptance of that philosophy is repulsive to me. The last thing we need to do is empower referees to ignore rules or make up their own rules because the play occurs at the end of the game. Acceptance of that is just bizarroland logic to me.

    You are then letting players unfairly decide the outcome of the game by choosing to violate rules, knowing full well that they will not be called for it.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I get that bad calls even out over the course of the game most of the time, but with today's technology it is possible to ensure that no game ENDS on a bad call or blown call. Thats not asking for too much, and most fans would be in favor of having the game end on the up and up.
    Once again though, why is it fair for a call at the end of the game to be more carefully called then a call in the second quarter. Simple: It isn't.
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    Default Re: When is it OK for fans to be critical of end-game officiating?

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    Once again though, why is it fair for a call at the end of the game to be more carefully called then a call in the second quarter. Simple: It isn't.
    From a purely logical and analytically based standpoint? It isn't.

    In real life? Because it has the power to immediately and irrevocably change the winner of a game.

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