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Thread: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Everyone talks about the fourth foul, but I was super irritated when we were up by (I think) double figures with about a minute left in the second half and Roy picked up his third foul. Roy shouldn't have been in the game right at that point.
    Roy should have been playing. Roy hasn't had foul problems sine his Rookie year. Against any other team, no foul would have been called. Not a coincidence vs Miami that Roy is in foul trouble
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Roy should have been playing. Roy hasn't had foul problems sine his Rookie year. Against any other team, no foul would have been called. Not a coincidence vs Miami that Roy is in foul trouble
    Vogel pulled PG on defense shortly after Roy picked up his third foul because he didn't want see it happen. I bet if Vogel could do it over again, he'd pull Roy at the end of the half. Not the end of the world, but when your center has two fouls and you're up double digits with a minute left in the half, you should probably pull him just in case. 20/20 hindsight though.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Vogel pulled PG on defense shortly after Roy picked up his third foul because he didn't want see it happen. I bet if Vogel could do it over again, he'd pull Roy at the end of the half. Not the end of the world, but when your center has two fouls and you're up double digits with a minute left in the half, you should probably pull him just in case. 20/20 hindsight though.
    The obvious question is exactly when do you pull him. Do you do it with 1 minute and ten seconds. Do you do it with 55 seconds left. 45 seconds. 25 seconds.

    The question isn't whether you do it or not, but when. Roy picked up number 3 with 57.8 left in the second quarter.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I know that Roy only played 23 minutes, but still, 3 shot attempts is just inexcusable when he has such a match-up advantage against these guys. We aren't going to beat them much if Roy is only shooting the ball 3 times. We better make a point to get him going the next time we play them. That's by far the biggest advantage we have over them and it needs to be exploited.

    I really really really hope that DG can come back and give us some consistent reliable scoring off of the bench. That would make us a considerably better team. This team still has a flaw in that it needs a wing who can come off of the bench and give us some points to take some pressure off of PG. The margin of error against Miami is a series is razor thin and we need an upgrade in that department.
    Good things usually happen when we play through the post first and the player to do that with more then anyone is Roy. A few games ago Vogel said he was going to make an effort to get Roy more involved in the offense and when he did that for the next few games we were a better team. It's harder to do against some teams but against Miami Roy should have had far more touches and shot attempts. Vogel needs to go back and read his remarks, I put Roy's 3 shot attempts on Vogel.
    I would have also liked to have seen more of Roy in the 4th. Too many times a coach will foul a player out with 5 fouls in an attempt to not have him pick up his 6th. I'd rather have had Roy get his 6th. foul earlier in the quarter then to play fewer minutes. I know we need him in the end of the game but in that case you have to try to get every minute you can from Roy in the 4th. The chance obviously shouldn't have been taken in the 3rd.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Vogel trusted Hibbert not to commit an stupid foul there I kind of understand why he did it after all Roy has been smart about not committing stupid fouls all year, I blame Roy for trying to go for the block instead of staying vertical.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    At this juncture, and I understand and appreciate all the problems everyone is coming up with, I am truly bothered by the current dynamic with Lance. I am a big fan of Lance, even though he does still have some immaturity issues at times. However, I am concerned that he isn't allowed to play through some of his mistakes. Doesn't anyone else find it funny that Legend said he thinks Lance can play the 1 but the coaches don't, and then last night when Lance was single-handedly handling LeHeat in the first half with his dictation, Vogel went away from him in the 2nd? I don't think Vogel trusts Lance. I didn't used to trust Lance. Now I trust Lance, and I think his ceiling is extremely high. Let the kid make some mistakes without the threat of being frozen out. Yeah, he can be dumb, but so can Hill and PG, and the Pacers pay him lots of money (deservedly so).

    There were a few on here who used to say Lance had the highest ceiling on the team. I used to snicker. Now I've had to accept that may be the case. Just my 2 cents.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolHand View Post
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    Actually, you can see on the replay that Roy stepped on the foot of Chalmbers which made him fall over... It was actually a good call - it sure didn't look like a foul in real time, though. There were plenty of other calls they blew
    Way I saw it Chalmers stepped on Hibbert's foot first.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But it is not by design. Frank said afrter the game the guys were holding the ball too much, they started walking the ball up and not moving the ball from side to side.
    I haven't heard him say anything about off-the-ball player movement, though. Have I missed it? I think the problem is not that there isn't ball movement so much as that there isn't any place to move the ball when everyone stands around.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Candace Buckner ‏@CandaceDBuckner 4m
    More ratings news for #Pacers: last night's game vs the #Heat delivered the highest overnight rating for an NBA game on ESPN of the season.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel trusted Hibbert not to commit an stupid foul there I kind of understand why he did it after all Roy has been smart about not committing stupid fouls all year, I blame Roy for trying to go for the block instead of staying vertical.
    Yeah, Roy played right into LeBron's hands last night. I think he's been getting a little sloppy on the verticality the last bunch of games and he finally got caught.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Candace Buckner ‏@CandaceDBuckner 4m
    More ratings news for #Pacers: last night's game vs the #Heat delivered the highest overnight rating for an NBA game on ESPN of the season.
    Yeah, clearly putting this matchup on national TV after it was your highest non-Finals rated series would have been a bad idea. Good job NBA.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, clearly putting this matchup on national TV after it was your highest non-Finals rated series would have been a bad idea. Good job NBA.
    I get irritated every time I see that NBA Christmas wreath promoting the Christmas games with the likes of the Knicks and Nets. There's simply no excuse for the Pacers not being one of the ten teams featured on Christmas.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel trusted Hibbert not to commit an stupid foul there I kind of understand why he did it after all Roy has been smart about not committing stupid fouls all year, I blame Roy for trying to go for the block instead of staying vertical.
    Agree 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I get irritated every time I see that NBA Christmas wreath promoting the Christmas games with the likes of the Knicks and Nets. There's simply no excuse for the Pacers not being one of the ten teams featured on Christmas.
    Sure there is, most bad NY and LA teams are still more popular than most good Midwest teams.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    Sure there is, most bad NY and LA teams are still more popular than most good Midwest teams.
    Simply untrue. The Pacers are setting all time and seasonal record highs while the NY teams are setting seasonal lows. If that statement was true, then ratings would reflect it, but they don't.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The obvious question is exactly when do you pull him. Do you do it with 1 minute and ten seconds. Do you do it with 55 seconds left. 45 seconds. 25 seconds.

    The question isn't whether you do it or not, but when. Roy picked up number 3 with 57.8 left in the second quarter.
    I'm saying 2 minutes and under, with that lead, if there's any natural stoppage of the game. I'm taking him out.

    As for our offense, we do far too much dribbling and don't really get into any sort of offense until there 10 seconds left in the shotclock. Our perimeter playsers are extended well past the 3 point line and don't really try to get into the shell of Miami's defense until there are 6 or 7 seconds left on the shot clock. I know we want to slow the game down, but at the same time, it would be nice to see this team make some quick passes and swing the ball. Work the ball inside, work it outside.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Simply untrue. The Pacers are setting all time and seasonal record highs while the NY teams are setting seasonal lows. If that statement was true, then ratings would reflect it, but they don't.
    I'm no fan of how they divvy up games, but seriously you are started to get into the "I don't know what I am talking about" territory. You are making logical assumptions that have no proof behind them. The Pacers vs Miami has had great numbers, unsurprisingly, but that doesn't mean the Pacers vs (insert team here) would even get close to similar numbers. As well you are using a lot of hindsight in your assumptions. The NY teams have had a lot of hype the past couple seasons, and were both expected to be good teams. If that had held true they would both, without a doubt, almost always have a bigger pull than the Pacers with the only exceptions being when the Pacers play the Heat.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    How is it that our offense remains bland and stale? I love Vogel, but I still say the biggest mistake was not getting an offensive minded coach.

    Lance had a terrific first half, and then barely a whisper in the 2nd? Was that the Heat or did the Pacers just change things up? To blow a huge lead like that and lose...really bad loss right there. Pacers had it and fumbled it away cause they couldn't execute on the offensive end. There was little to no ball movement and off the ball movement it seemed in the 2nd half. Not sure what happened there.

    Lot's of blame. Hill continues to stink up the joint with his overall lad back attitude and constantly dribbling down the clock. Really wish the guy would play aggressive. When he does, this team is pretty unstoppable. I understand the Pacers want to slow the game down, but the Pacers just have to find a way to get into their offensive sets more quickly. Too many terrible shots with shot clock expiring...or taking the shot clock violation.

    Not sure what his deal is. Hibbert hasn't been playing well either. PG hadn't either, but at least he came to play tonight.

    This team could really use a healthy Granger.

    Most importantly, the Pacers simply have to learn from this game. The Heat are very good. It's gonna take a lot to beat them in the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    I'm saying 2 minutes and under, with that lead, if there's any natural stoppage of the game. I'm taking him out.

    As for our offense, we do far too much dribbling and don't really get into any sort of offense until there 10 seconds left in the shotclock. Our perimeter playsers are extended well past the 3 point line and don't really try to get into the shell of Miami's defense until there are 6 or 7 seconds left on the shot clock. I know we want to slow the game down, but at the same time, it would be nice to see this team make some quick passes and swing the ball. Work the ball inside, work it outside.
    It doesn't matter who is handling the ball it is always the same. Slowing it down doesn't mean take your time, it means be patient and get the best shot possible.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I'm no fan of how they divvy up games, but seriously you are started to get into the "I don't know what I am talking about" territory. You are making logical assumptions that have no proof behind them. The Pacers vs Miami has had great numbers, unsurprisingly, but that doesn't mean the Pacers vs (insert team here) would even get close to similar numbers. As well you are using a lot of hindsight in your assumptions. The NY teams have had a lot of hype the past couple seasons, and were both expected to be good teams. If that had held true they would both, without a doubt, almost always have a bigger pull than the Pacers with the only exceptions being when the Pacers play the Heat.
    I'm not using any hindsight. I was laughing at their decision the moment the schedule came out. Also, I'm not assuming the Pacers and (insert team here) would draw the ratings. My argument is that the Pacers/Heat brought in ratings in the playoffs, and it's stupid not to highlight that matchup nationally. It has nothing to do with the other teams, I'm talking specifically about the Pacers and Heat.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    Agree 100%



    Sure there is, most bad NY and LA teams are still more popular than most good Midwest teams.
    I'll buy that the Lakers have a large national fan base, but NO ONE outside of NYC cares about the Knicks. Sure the NYC market is worth a lot in ratings, but no one outside of the tri-state area is interested in that cesspool of a team, yet the NBA continuously shoves them down our throats.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    It doesn't matter who is handling the ball it is always the same. Slowing it down doesn't mean take your time, it means be patient and get the best shot possible.
    It also means moving the basketball. Swinging the ball, kicking it in, kicking it out. Too many iso plays by our perimeter guys. David West and Scola bailed us out late in the 4th by taking some tough shots as the shot clock nearly expired, but that's not a continued recipe for success. It hurt us when we needed an offensive play or two late.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Good post, Peck. I don't think that Roy had a bad game tonight. His lack of production was clearly a result of his foul trouble, imo. Of course, he was absolutely responsible for the two fouls that he committed in the second half.

    About Scola now. It's true that his personal defense on LeBron wasn't good. But I didn't expect anything else to happen, to be honest. Scola is not quick laterally. He shouldn't be put on that spot. And David shouldn't foul LeBron after he blew past Scola.

    All in all, we played a really good game against the Heat in Miami without Roy playing an important part on it due to foul trouble. I feel comfortable in saying that if Roy was out of foul trouble then we would probably win. And that's what we need to know for the playoffs. Yesterday, we did show that we can beat them on their court. That's what I gathered from this game. We didn't get it done last night but if Roy stays out of foul trouble then we can get it done. We looked better yesterday than we looked for most of last year.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Miami IS NOT a good defensive team.
    Disagree. Miami is very, very quick. They're like those very good cornerbacks in football, that play off their guy and give him space, and the minute they see a pass that isn't so crisp, they use their quickness and usually get turnovers that end up being fast break dunks. They are not the best defense, but they can give any team trouble on the defensive end.

    I do agree they get away with some calls, but nobody can act like we don't from time to time also.

    IMO, turnovers and Lebron imposing his will cost us the game.
    Last edited by pogi; 12-19-2013 at 08:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBearCoffee View Post
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    At this juncture, and I understand and appreciate all the problems everyone is coming up with, I am truly bothered by the current dynamic with Lance. I am a big fan of Lance, even though he does still have some immaturity issues at times. However, I am concerned that he isn't allowed to play through some of his mistakes. Doesn't anyone else find it funny that Legend said he thinks Lance can play the 1 but the coaches don't, and then last night when Lance was single-handedly handling LeHeat in the first half with his dictation, Vogel went away from him in the 2nd? I don't think Vogel trusts Lance. I didn't used to trust Lance. Now I trust Lance, and I think his ceiling is extremely high. Let the kid make some mistakes without the threat of being frozen out. Yeah, he can be dumb, but so can Hill and PG, and the Pacers pay him lots of money (deservedly so).

    There were a few on here who used to say Lance had the highest ceiling on the team. I used to snicker. Now I've had to accept that may be the case. Just my 2 cents.
    Glad someone else saw what I saw.

    Problem is, the Pacers can get away with this with most teams. GHill is decent. He's okay. But he can't handle elite defenses. At that point Lance needs to be handling the ball. But he didn't in the second half and we lost.

    They get so used to getting away with Ghill's initiating mediocrity in most games that think they can do the same thing against real defenses. They can't.
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