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Thread: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

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    Default Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    It caught us tonight. What is it you ask? It is our inept offense that has little to no direction, virtually no off the ball movement and relies almost exclusively on one player hitting some miracle shot as the clock ticks to zero.

    Hero ball by design if you will.

    I know we want to slow down the game, I know we prefer to play low post offense but just way to many times this occurs to us. Sometimes we will hit shots and other times we will not. Miami and their pressure defense is not the team that you want your players standing around without any off the ball movement.

    Franks not dumb so I’m guessing that he would prefer someone to move as well but I don’t know really who the culprit is.

    I say all of that to say this. George Hill’s pass to Paul George did not cost us this game. The referee’s not calling a foul on LeBron James as time ran out did not cost us this game. Even our defense for the most part did not cost us this game. Look NBA teams are going to score, even against the best defense you just have to limit the looks they get and I felt like for the most part we did. Bosh & Allen just happened to get open in transition which is very common place in the NBA and hit their shots.

    No to me the fact that once again we could not muster any form of cognitive offense was our undoing.

    Oh btw, kudos to LeBron James for being able to convince the NBA that Roy needed to scrutinized this game. Sure Roy made a couple of stupid fouls but that one where he got called for Chalmers falling over was pure B.S., but all of these calls were made possible by LeBron complaining after last game about Hibbert. Way to take advantage of your throne your highness.

    Speaking of taking advantage, I’ll go ahead and say it; Paul George flopped on that Dwayne Wade hit to the head. Any other team on the planet I would probably care against this team? Hell no. In fact I’m upset that every one of our players doesn’t make it a point to act like they have been shot by a sniper whenever any of them make any motion towards us at all. Look I hate flopping as much as anyone but they have proven time and time again that they are going to do it no matter what and for the most par they have been rewarded. Well suck on your own medicine for a change Wade, now if we could just get one of our players to put you in the stands like you did Darren Collison a couple of years ago.

    If we feel the need to take away any positive from this game I think we can say this, Paul George snapped out of his mini funk in the second half and actually came alive. However we now have to worry that Roy has now had two bad games and oh bye the way he only has to play the best center in the NBA on Friday. Let’s hope and pray he can come alive for that.

    Our bench tonight was really weird. On the one hand Ian Mahinmi played the best ball he has played since the first week of the season. On the other hand Luis Scola showed us why he was never considered a defensive ace. In fact he should have dressed up in a gaucho outfit, but not the manly kind of gaucho from Argentina but the frilly waiter gaucho from fogo de chao. He could have ushered LeBron to the front of the buffet line and made a plate for him. Hell somewhere Troy Murphy was watching this game and went “My God that is bad defense”, that’s how bad his two turns were on LeBron. It was so bad that I was yelling for Paul to just leave his man open for a three because that would have been better than what occurred here.

    Also C.J. Watson had a miserable shooting night and what kills me about this is that not one time did I think he took a bad shot, they just didn’t drop. He played solid D though and I always enjoy his time on the floor, oh btw I still love what Scola brings to the team but I have to be honest about that defense tonight it was hideous.

    The worst part about all of this? We have played our absolute best basketball record wise in our history and we are now only one lousy game ahead of the Heat in the standings.

    I’m by no means sounding the horns of Ragnarok but I’d be lying if I told you I wasn’t a little concerned about not finishing first in the East now. This is why that Detroit game hurt so bad it now places the Houston game on Friday on a more important level than it really needed to be. It’s by no means a must win game, I mean reality check we are still first in the east at the moment, but by no means can we really afford to go on a losing streak of any magnitude.

    Let’s hit the grades.

    Paul George: A Did a very good job of coming back to form in the second half and did get to the free throw line more than LeBron did so there is that. I noticed tonight we had Lance guard LeBron quite a bit in the second half and much to my surprise it worked very well; he passed off quit a bit. We really need him to come alive for the Houston game and just make that a statement game.

    David West: B Offensively he did very well, defensively he did what he had to do but that is not saying much as his man barely touches the ball but I was more than a little disappointed in his rebounding. I know that Paul & Lance took the lion’s share of the boards but I felt like he could have done a little more to help out on the glass.

    Roy Hibbert: D Arm straight up Roy, STRAIGHT UP. Reaching across the face to block a shot that is already past you will get a foul called on you no matter how good your verticality is. You got taken out of the game by LeBron pointing them in your direction but YOU are the one who fouled, except that BS call against Chalmers.

    Lance Stephenson: A- Not exactly sure why we took the ball away from him in the second half and why we weren’t getting him some called plays. Unless I didn’t see it and someone else did there was no example of “Bad Lance” tonight. Maybe Miami got the ball away from him but even then I still would have liked to have seen him cut and try and get to the rim.

    George Hill: D I’m not sure what went wrong here. His shot wasn’t falling but then again Chalmers wasn’t either. I think the problem here is that we can often over look when George get’s outplayed by one of the superstar points in the NBA and there are a lot of them, but when we play a Mario Chalmers or someone of his ilk we really need George to definitively outplay him and he just doesn’t do it for some reason. That last play I’ve watched a couple of times and honestly I can’t tell you who is at fault. George throws it to where Paul should have gone and was a for a split second but I don’t know if the play was broken up by LeBron or if there was a mix up in where Paul was supposed to be. Either way it didn’t work very well.

    Ian Mahinmi: A Him hitting the ball off of the side of the board is the only thing stopping the A+ train to keep rolling his way. Look the guy has been absolutely miserable for a month now; this game tonight was akin to a 20 point 20 rebound night by anyone else. He even caught that Lance pass that Birdman fouled him on. So while the grade really makes no sense from an actually performance issue in the long term scheme of things it makes all of the sense in the world.

    C.J. Watson: C Like I said his shot didn’t fall but I’ll be danged if it didn’t look like every single one of them would. Played solid defense all night long.

    Luis Scola: C- That defense deserves a giant F but he made up for it by hitting a few face up jumpers and in fact in the second quarter I thought he hit some big shots to keep the lead for us, which made me comment at the time how nice it was to not have a bench come in and immediately give up a ten point lead. I have faith he will return to good form for Houston.

    Rasual Butler: B Again another solid performance from an old steady pro. I hate that Orlando has lost his spot in the rotation but he has nobody to blame but himself and Rasual has certainly earned these minutes over the past few games.

    I hate the Heat, I hate their fans (not as much as I hate the Bulls fans but that’s a different post), I hate LeBron James smug face, I hate Dwayne Wade just on principle and I hate the way that the media and even the NBA kisses their butts. Have you seen the NBA.com highlights from tonight? You wouldn’t know that we ever led in this game if you didn’t watch.

    So in honor of our victors from the home of the Cocaine Cowboys I present you Cyndi Lauper for your listening pleasure.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Any thoughts on why Vogel didn't take Hibbert out after getting his 4th foul at the 9 minute mark in the 3rd?

    Obviously, it turned out to be one of the many mistakes of the night. Our primary defensive anchor was out for what pretty much amounted to 14 minutes ( basically a full QTR ) in the 2nd half. I suspect that he would have drawn the 5th foul regardless....but there's a difference between drawing the 5th foul with 20 minutes left in the game and sometime in the 4th QTR.

    I honestly cannot think of any justifiable reason to keep him in the game at the point. After the FT...I was looking around and asking myself.....UHHHH...why is Hibbert still on the floor after getting the 4th foul?

    I said it in the Post-Game thread....but I don't know why Vogel gets these brain farts when it comes to what to do with Hibbert in game situations against the Heat.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-19-2013 at 03:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I think it's obvious. He got greedy, he gambled, he tried to get a couple more minutes out of him.

    It's not like he forgot he was in there or anything. If he stays in there for a little bit, helps keep the heat at bay and we win then Vogel would've been praised for a great decision.

    Plus he was sick, so we weren't playing at 100%. Obviously we could've made up 3 points with a healthy Vogel.

    Oh, as far as PGs flop goes, I don't love it. But he did get hit in the head and it was more exaggeration than a true flop to me. Maybe that's just what fans in denial say though.

    And another thing, I'm sick and freaking tired of hearing that we are doing a lot of talking about this game. So what if we said we really want to beat the heat. No **** they're the team that keeps knocking us out and the best team in the league! Miami is the team talking. "It's just a regular season game..." Blah, blah, blah. I don't care what anyone says, that's not just 1/82. We admit that, they don't yet we are the ones talking.

    Ya, I hate media/espn. Ya, I still watch though.
    Last edited by ECKrueger; 12-19-2013 at 05:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    While somewhat of a letdown, still, there is no shame to losing to another
    really good team on their home court. Welcome back to earth Pacers.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I think its perfect film fodder for June. See here where we had several panic possession, see here where we never moved the ball. If they play in the ECF I play this game on a loop as the reason that if they clean up a few minor things they are the better team. I think this is a shining example of what and how they SHOULD beat Miami in June. No such thing as a good loss, but this really has the makings of hammering home some pretty basic ideas on how to win a series against them, imo.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Oh btw, kudos to LeBron James for being able to convince the NBA that Roy needed to scrutinized this game. Sure Roy made a couple of stupid fouls but that one where he got called for Chalmers falling over was pure B.S., but all of these calls were made possible by LeBron complaining after last game about Hibbert.
    Actually, you can see on the replay that Roy stepped on the foot of Chalmbers which made him fall over... It was actually a good call - it sure didn't look like a foul in real time, though. There were plenty of other calls they blew

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Luis Scola showed us why he was never considered a defensive ace. In fact he should have dressed up in a gaucho outfit, but not the manly kind of gaucho from Argentina but the frilly waiter gaucho from fogo de chao. He could have ushered LeBron to the front of the buffet line and made a plate for him. Hell somewhere Troy Murphy was watching this game and went “My God that is bad defense”
    This is hilarious!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I'd like to see how many minutes that we had the lead in both games. I'd say it's 70 percent or more. We are the better team, however they know how to close out a game. How to stay within reach and take it at the end. I don't see how the heat got any satisfaction out of this game, only relief.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    No to me the fact that once again we could not muster any form of cognitive offense was our undoing.
    Thisx1000.

    I think the next time the Pacers have a 4 day stretch of no games, the first night they need to cue up the game film and play the "no passing lane" drinking game.

    A morning spent praying for a merciful death from the porcelain god might be the only way to get into these guys heads that the ball handler is not responsible for creating the passing lane. Players without the ball have to adjust to create those lanes.

    This is what needs fixing. I think we played a very good game until we suddenly couldn't find a place to shoot - and even that might be a false impression because we were making jumpers in the first half instead of getting the ball down low (because we couldn't get a passing lane for an entry pass).
    BillS

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    For all of the King Flopper's gusto about remembering last week's game and Lance's dunk (I firmly believe the ankle was used to motivate his team), he and the Flopettes could only muster a 3 point win at home that they had to pull out of their backsides?

    We ARE the better team.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    The biggest reason the Pacers lost is not the officiating and it's good to see that no one in here is really making that the reason they lost. Roy committed 3 dumb fouls. He committed one inadvertent foul when he stepped on Chalmers foot, and another was a bad call on a contested shot. The refs got 4 out of the 5 correct. It was a mistake by Vogel to leave him in the game once he picked up his 4th but it was also a mistake by Roy to swing his hand down and hack Bosh the very next time down the floor. That was a big mistake that hurt the team greatly.

    I also don't blame the offense as the reason they lost this game. I thought they did a pretty good job of getting the shots they wanted. PG missed a wide open 3 in the corner that would've been huge and David West missed his patented fadeaway jumper a few possessions later. They missed several good shots that they normally make.

    Their defense slacked off in the 4th quarter and that's why they lost. They didn't get back in transition, they didn't rotate well enough, and they didn't locate the shooters on the perimeter. The Heat knocked down some 3s and it was game over.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I too was puzzled as to why we went away from Lance in the second half. Aside from one horrible forced badly missed jumper which resulted in a Miami scoring on a fast break, I can't think of many "bad Lance" moments last night. He was a huge reason why controlled that game in the first half.

    I still think that we should have gone to Hibbert or West on that second to last play which resulted in the turnover. I understand not going to Roy since he was rusty, but I still wouldn't have had a problem with posting him up and either taking someone one on one or passing out of a double team. West probably would have been the best option since he was absolutely torching Miami. He could have backed someone down and done one of those turnaround jumpers, or he could have driven it and either scored or drew a foul. Miami was clearly ready for that play for PG. I know that PG is our best player, but we have other really good players too and we could have tried to go to a player who wasn't guarded by Lebron.

    I know that Roy only played 23 minutes, but still, 3 shot attempts is just inexcusable when he has such a match-up advantage against these guys. We aren't going to beat them much if Roy is only shooting the ball 3 times. We better make a point to get him going the next time we play them. That's by far the biggest advantage we have over them and it needs to be exploited.

    I really really really hope that DG can come back and give us some consistent reliable scoring off of the bench. That would make us a considerably better team. This team still has a flaw in that it needs a wing who can come off of the bench and give us some points to take some pressure off of PG. The margin of error against Miami is a series is razor thin and we need an upgrade in that department.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I really really really hope that DG can come back and give us some consistent reliable scoring off of the bench. That would make us a considerably better team. This team still has a flaw in that it needs a wing who can come off of the bench and give us some points to take some pressure off of PG. The margin of error against Miami is a series is razor thin and we need an upgrade in that department.

    I agree with everything you said but just wanted to point out that I really think that Rasual Butler has played very well in his few minutes the last 3 games. He's grabbed a few boards and he doesn't get torched on defense. The Pacers expanded their lead in the second quarter with him in the game. However, I agree that Danny could really help out in this area but if he re-injures himself I want Butler to continue to get minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I saw three times where Lance was waved off when he wanted the ball. Wade could not stop him. And we needed Lebron to switch on him to get Paul going earlier. They didn't blitz the curl like the game before, they hedged really well. And the slip/roll was slow which allowed the help to play the middle, thus not giving the shot to the opposite wing as much. Only Lance was pressuring that hedge to allow the help on the roll man commit more. Paul George and David West played well in the second half, but we keep turning over the ball and missing free throws.

    This can be a good loss. Hopefully it will cause our guys to turn it up. But what I fear most is Roy going to his hole. If Howard abuses him, we could lose Roy (mentally) for a month or two.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    We lost because of the officiating. Miami IS NOT a good defensive team. They constantly foul and get away with it. Their "high pressure" defense is when they decide to hack away knowing no whistle will be blown
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Their defense slacked off in the 4th quarter and that's why they lost. They didn't get back in transition, they didn't rotate well enough, and they didn't locate the shooters on the perimeter. The Heat knocked down some 3s and it was game over.
    Their D slacked because they were tired, though. And they get tired because as much as the bench has upgrades in spots, overall, it usually just presents poor defensive mismatches (Scola on whoever, Ian had the game of his life last night but is usually slow rotating, Butler will never be confused for a defensive stopper at his age, Watson is just average on defense, etc.) and can't consistently hold down the fort.

    But then, when MIA plays its Big Three as much as they do vs the Pacers....what are you gonna do? It's basically an endurance contest. Pacers ran out of gas first last night.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    For all the lack of offensive execution last night, I think if West hits the bunny instead of missing, the Pacers hold on. I wish GHill would stay aggressive at the end of games. Your PG being able to get into the lane and cause rotations would be huge. They've got to get some sort of a Plan B when the defense is focusing so much on keeping the ball out of Paul's hands. They can't just beat their head against the wall until they break through.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    I agree with most of your grades, and especially your sentiment about Orlando, except for Paul. Maybe I just have unreasonably high standards (he did it to himself by playing so well so consistently for too long), but as far as I am concerned Paul deserves a D for this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I agree with everything you said but just wanted to point out that I really think that Rasual Butler has played very well in his few minutes the last 3 games. He's grabbed a few boards and he doesn't get torched on defense. The Pacers expanded their lead in the second quarter with him in the game. However, I agree that Danny could really help out in this area but if he re-injures himself I want Butler to continue to get minutes.
    Butler has played well, be he isn't on the same level as Danny. Butler can be a spot up shooter, but Danny potentially could be a 20ppg scorer if we needed him to be (which we don't, so he won't). With Danny you have someone you have someone who you can bench Paul for for extended period of time if Paul is playing with his head up his ***.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    For all the lack of offensive execution last night, I think if West hits the bunny instead of missing, the Pacers hold on. I wish GHill would stay aggressive at the end of games. Your PG being able to get into the lane and cause rotations would be huge. They've got to get some sort of a Plan B when the defense is focusing so much on keeping the ball out of Paul's hands. They can't just beat their head against the wall until they break through.

    Hill would get into the lane and not know where to go to next. It stalled the offense. "Hill sit in the corner and hit the three"

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    It caught us tonight. What is it you ask? It is our inept offense that has little to no direction, virtually no off the ball movement and relies almost exclusively on one player hitting some miracle shot as the clock ticks to zero.

    Hero ball by design if you will.

    I know we want to slow down the game, I know we prefer to play low post offense but just way to many times this occurs to us. Sometimes we will hit shots and other times we will not. Miami and their pressure defense is not the team that you want your players standing around without any off the ball movement.

    Franks not dumb so I’m guessing that he would prefer someone to move as well but I don’t know really who the culprit is.
    But it is not by design. Frank said afrter the game the guys were holding the ball too much, they started walking the ball up and not moving the ball from side to side.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I agree with everything you said but just wanted to point out that I really think that Rasual Butler has played very well in his few minutes the last 3 games. He's grabbed a few boards and he doesn't get torched on defense. The Pacers expanded their lead in the second quarter with him in the game. However, I agree that Danny could really help out in this area but if he re-injures himself I want Butler to continue to get minutes.
    I like Butler and hope that he can continue to play decent for us, but I would say that his max ceiling in a game is about 10 points. Most of the time he will be chipping in 5 or 6. We need a wing who can give us a nice spark off of the bench and take a bit of pressure off of PG, i.e. a guy who could average 10-12 points and have the potential to have random games where he drops 15-20. That's what a reasonably healthy DG could give us. If we had that sort of wing off of the bench, then our team would basically be flawless.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-19-2013 at 09:45 AM.

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  34. #22
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    For all the lack of offensive execution last night, I think if West hits the bunny instead of missing, the Pacers hold on. I wish GHill would stay aggressive at the end of games. Your PG being able to get into the lane and cause rotations would be huge. They've got to get some sort of a Plan B when the defense is focusing so much on keeping the ball out of Paul's hands. They can't just beat their head against the wall until they break through.
    Plan B at the very end should have been going to West or Hibbert, who are usually too much for Miami. Plan C should have been going to Lance, who was tearing them up in the second half.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Any thoughts on why Vogel didn't take Hibbert out after getting his 4th foul at the 9 minute mark in the 3rd?

    Obviously, it turned out to be one of the many mistakes of the night. Our primary defensive anchor was out for what pretty much amounted to 14 minutes ( basically a full QTR ) in the 2nd half. I suspect that he would have drawn the 5th foul regardless....but there's a difference between drawing the 5th foul with 20 minutes left in the game and sometime in the 4th QTR.

    I honestly cannot think of any justifiable reason to keep him in the game at the point. After the FT...I was looking around and asking myself.....UHHHH...why is Hibbert still on the floor after getting the 4th foul?

    I said it in the Post-Game thread....but I don't know why Vogel gets these brain farts when it comes to what to do with Hibbert in game situations against the Heat.

    wasn't a brain fart. As in oops, I didn't realize what happened. it was a gamble that didn't pay off.

    If I were the coach I might do that in the regular season so if we have to do that in the playoffs Roy has some experience in doing it. Maybe not best to do it against the Heat.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    wasn't a brain fart. As in oops, I didn't realize what happened. it was a gamble that didn't pay off.

    If I were the coach I might do that in the regular season so if we have to do that in the playoffs Roy has some experience in doing it. Maybe not best to do it against the Heat.
    Especially when Ian was playing just as well as Roy defensively. How Ian is playing that game really should be what tells you if it is worth the risk or not. If he is playing well you pull Roy immediately, if he is sucking it up you consider keeping Roy in. I am marking it up to Vogel was sick, and thus not weighing his options properly.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespected by the champs...

    Everyone talks about the fourth foul, but I was super irritated when we were up by (I think) double figures with about a minute left in the second half and Roy picked up his third foul. Roy shouldn't have been in the game right at that point.

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