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Thread: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    so I hope he doesn't mind.

    But this place is dead & I want to see if there is any thoughts on this.

    From the Kravits thread U.B. typed.

    "Bottom line if the Pacers do have to trade Artest, then the whole team needs to be re-thought. It won't mean a re-building process, but big changes will be needed."

    Let's assume for a min. he is right. Let's go one step further & pretend they do trade Ron & get a player of less than equal value in return & a high draft pick for the next summer or whatever.

    How would you go about fixing what ails the Pacers if that trade goes down.

    Do you fix the center spot?

    The small forward?

    The shooting guard?

    The point guard?

    The power forward?

    Add some bench strength?


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    Member Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    We would need (I cant believe I am saying this) a better shooting guard.

    and a better backup pg. (we need that now)

    Of course it would be nice if we had an all star center who could score say 31 points grab 12 rebounds get 6 assists on occasion, but hey its not like we ever had a chance at having a guy like that.

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    Oh What Could Have Been! fwpacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    I think a b/u point guard, a starting small forward, a starting center, a b/u shooting guard and a b/u power forward would be helpful.

    Sitting Reggie Miller and starting Fred Jones would help.
    Playing Eddie Gill instead of Anthony Johnson would help.
    Starting Stephen Jackson at SF helps.
    Trading Bender for Kevin Ollie and a bag of fruit would help

    I'm beginning to think this team needs to be overhauled. After watching yet ANOTHER lackluster performance last night I don't see anything that gives me hope that this team will not end up in the lottery. It's not a talent issue - it's an attitude issue and I don't know if it can be fixed.

    They look like a team that has tuned out the coaching staff and have decided that team basketball isn't the way to win. They seem to not even really care either. I'm sick of it and I'm as disgusted with this team as any I've ever rooted for. I would like to see some sort of trade done before the trading deadline, maybe to get some future draft picks because I really think the window of opportunity is slamming shut for this team - the Cavaliers are on the rise, the Bulls are on the rise, the Pistons are still young, the Wizards getting better. The common thing among these teams is that they show up to play EVERY night. This group of Pacers only seems to care when they play a top flight team and that is something that is unacceptable.
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Of course it would be nice if we had an all star center who could score say 31 points grab 12 rebounds get 6 assists on occasion, but hey its not like we ever had a chance at having a guy like that.
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    I want to spin this question another way. Let's say we do need re-tooling or re-building. Which specific players do you keep, and which do you send packing one way or another (likely trade, perhaps FA for the lesser guys)?

  6. #6
    Member Harddrive7's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    IMO last night was by the most part attributed to not having Tins. Otherwise this team seems to play very good team ball when playing a worthy opponent and other times they play down to a lesser team. We have had this same problem before when the entire team was intact. Did we talk overhaul then?

    I think that the players honestly think that they can't do this without Ron afterall? I beginning to think the same thing.

  7. #7
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    From what I saw there was just a "mismatch" in the team.
    Jax back is great, but he tried to do to much without giving things we did a try or letting them be as they were.

    I am pretty sure that Jax will be calmer tonight, I have high hopes that Tins will be force fed some medicine that makes it at least likely he will be there to play some minutes and thus we will have a far better team then we had last night.

    I have missed (some ppl are forced to work crazy hours) the 1st Q last night, seemingly that was the only time Jax showed what he can do, from what I saw it was pathetic, understandable but still pathetic.

    Passing went awry, there wasn't a soul who setup any kind of offense and it was more like "he who has the ball does whatever he thinks is allright" then a Pacers game.

    Without a doubt Mel Mel will solve a large part of those problems, Jax staying within the frame of the offense will help also.

    Yesterday was a coming together of bad things ( I HOPE ) and not something that is signature for the team.
    Rick also defintely decided to "preserve" some strenght with some players, Polly played not much, and I have a feeling that tonight we will see a whole different team.

    I refuse to give up in the next week without giving Jax a chance to get settled in.

    Nonetheless if forced to "rebuild" then I keep JO, Mel, Hulk and make it a point to replace Cro at the very least and not because I do not like him but because he is not good enough to start on this team and does not pan out as a bench player.
    Miller will be here probably even after I am buried, so we leave that as is, however all others have values that should be able to get us a team that "fits" the cast we keep,
    secondary's I like to keep would be Jeff, Polly (last year of contract) and Jax.

    the rest is available imo
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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    I'm happy to see the Pacers build around a foundation of JO, Tinsley, Harrison, and Jackson.

    The "Big four" is in place for a long time to come. But the complimentary players just aren't "right" right now.
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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Keepers for sure:
    - J.O.
    - Jamaal Tinsley
    - Stephen Jackson
    - David Harrison
    - Reggie Miller (he is not going anywhere and this is prob. his last year anyway)

    If the right deal comes along, but rather not:
    - Ron Artest (not going to go into this, but IF we get something of a good SF back and a nice pick or a GOOD pick, I would have to say "ok")
    - Scot Pollard (good player, but I'm really worried about that back of his, otherwise a keeper)
    - Jeff Foster (good player and nice addition to David makes us flexible with regards to opposing matchups, still I would trade him as part of a larger deal to get a new 2nd option IF Ron gets traded)

    No problem with trading:
    - Anthony Johnson (we need a better back up PG, don't like his contract with regards to length and amount, needs to shoot like last year and play defense like last year)
    - James Jones (he is prob. gone after this season anyway)
    - Eddie Gill (it's not like it's a big deal, but as a 3rd string PG he is good to me)
    - Jonathan Bender (I like the guy, but he's costing too much now and not benefitting the team now, while the future is UNCERTAIN), wouldn't mind getting an expiring contract and a good back up PG for him (if at all possible).
    - Fred Jones (again nice guy and not bad at all, but I think he has some trade value and he's not vital to our plans in anyway IMO)
    -Austin Croshere (contributed nicely at the start of the year, but he won't be in the same situation anytime soon, nobody is likely to take that GODAWFULL contract though)

    No problem with waiving:
    - John Edwards (nuff said)
    - Curry (Ibidem)

    Regards,

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Right now the weak spots are the starting SG spot and back up SF in particular. I'd like to see a starting lineup of Tins/Fred/Sjax/JO/Pollard.

    Then again, injuries are taking a toll on this team. I think that it is really become a bigger factor than fallout from the brawl. Not having Bender, Tinsley at times, and Harrison available really hurts this team's chances.

    If they had everyone healthy it would make a huge difference. "Snake bit" is the phrase that immediately comes to mind.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    It frustrates me that Reggie showed early in the suspensions that he is absolutely still capable of playing at a high level when he is the first or second option. His problem is that he doesn't seem to be able to function as third or fourth option, because he doesn't get in rhythm and doesn't provide a huge lift on defense (note: I don't think he is as bad a defender as some, but I am realistic about his ability).

    It frustrates me that Tinsley is our best ball distributer but still takes the ball one-on-one waaaay too often for my tastes (I am an old-school PG kind of guy).

    It frustrates me that our shooting percentage has dropped like a stone. This is an area that I simply don't have any idea how to analyze outside of freethrows.

    It frustrates me that Harrison is on the bench. I really think that he is the solution at center if this didn't mess him up for life. I believe he is capable of being that combination of Rik and Dale that we always have wanted at 5.

    I am frustrated that our defense has fallen apart. I think people underestimated the effect a single great defender has on the ability to perform team defense on the other 4 players.

    Given these, I think our needs probably are:

    1) Bring Reggie off the bench only when he is going to be a first or second scoring choice.

    2) Have SJax play at 2 more than 3. I know this impacts Freddie, but it opens us up to

    3) Find another defensive specialist to start or play major minutes at 3

    4) As fast as possible get to a David Harrison/JO combination at 4/5
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Addressing the original question. QUALITY SF for sure so that SJax plays the SG. Decent BU at PG and SG (RM won't be here much longer). Freddie is expendable as are JJ and Cro. Harrison and Jeff to share the 5 but I want a quality big man for the bench...ala Cliff Roberson. That big man for the bench is a MUST.
    I still think at his age Bender will eventually be something special...IF they can get the knees fixed...but that may be too big an IF to ask.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm happy to see the Pacers build around a foundation of JO, Tinsley, Harrison, and Jackson.

    The "Big four" is in place for a long time to come. But the complimentary players just aren't "right" right now.


    I agree with this. But of course I don't think Artest should be traded. Because if he isn't, then IMO this team is ready to roll. But if he has to be traded, then changes are needed.

    One thing that really worries me about DH is his lack of rebounding, he has admitted he has never been a good rebounder

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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    I wonder if Portland would send Derek Anderson here for Bender. The Oregonian says they are looking at trading him and we have suckered them before. Maybe we could send Freddie to portland with Bender for Anderson and whatever else.

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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I agree with this. But of course I don't think Artest should be traded. Because if he isn't, then IMO this team is ready to roll. But if he has to be traded, then changes are needed.

    One thing that really worries me about DH is his lack of rebounding, he has admitted he has never been a good rebounder

    The thing with David, is that his ability to dominate the paint makes it easier for his teammates to get rebounds. He's the type of player that makes the team a better rebounding/ defensive team even if it doesn't show in his stats, instead of having just a one-man rebounding machine.
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Indiana trades: PF Austin Croshere (10.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.8 apg in 29.0 minutes)
    SF Jonathan Bender (6.4 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.6 minutes)
    C Scot Pollard (6.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 0.8 apg in 24.6 minutes)
    SG Fred Jones (11.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.6 apg in 33.5 minutes)
    Indiana receives: PG Nick Van Exel (11.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 27.9 minutes)
    SG Derek Anderson (10.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg in 29.3 minutes)
    Change in team outlook: -13.2 ppg, -13.2 rpg, and +1.3 apg.

    Portland trades: PG Nick Van Exel (11.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 27.9 minutes)
    SG Derek Anderson (10.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg in 29.3 minutes)
    Portland receives: PF Austin Croshere (10.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.8 apg in 29.0 minutes)
    SF Jonathan Bender (6.4 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.6 minutes)
    C Scot Pollard (6.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 0.8 apg in 24.6 minutes)
    SG Fred Jones (11.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.6 apg in 33.5 minutes)
    Change in team outlook: +13.2 ppg, +13.2 rpg, and -1.3 apg.

    TRADE ACCEPTED

    This would be perfect for us. And not too bad for Portland. They get Freddie who is well liked there. Plus they get Pollard who is a decent C. So the trade would really be Freddie and Pollard for Nick and Derek with Cro and Bender thrown in and if they work out Portland looks good.

  17. #17
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Okay, assuming the following:

    - Reggie retires
    - JB never makes it
    - Ron is traded for junk

    The obvious starting place is we need another swingman. And don't give me that "Fred can start" bull. He can't, and he won't. In the long run, if he can learn some ball-handling skills, he's better off coming off the bench.

    So, the question is, what kind of a guy do you want. People assume Steve is fine at SF, but I don't know. His size is an advantage at the 2, but I didn't care for how Pierce was pushing him around last night. So I think we should pencil Jack in at the 2 and get a real forward.

    So, what kind of skill set. Shooting isn't a priority, IMO, since Jack and Tins have improved in that area. It'd be nice to have a 3-point specialist off the bench, but it isn't necessary for the starter.

    However, as has been pointed out above, if Harrison continues in his lack of rebounding, we need someone who can board. Jack can, but Carlisle wants guards getting down court.

    Along those same lines, if David really becomes the traditional center we hope he becomes, we need someone out there doing the dirty work. Someone who's scrappy and makes guys work for their shot on D while not looking for his own on O.

    All the guys I can think of that fits that role retired 5 years ago. Posey has been mentioned, but I'd like someone with a bit more meat on their bones. If Battier had a little more edge, or if Najera had a little less, either of those could work with more talent. If Eric Williams was a couple years younger, he'd be good.

    Really, UB's right. Artest with that lineup is perfect. So, as a comprimise I guess I'm looking for someone who brings the intangibles Ron brings. The scoring ability isn't necessary if Jamaal and David score, but it sure is a nice bonus.

    The big problem I see is the system. Carlisle's D needs a lynch pin, and Steve's a gambler, not a lock down guy. Offensively, we're never gonna run, so can we count on Steve to be the second assist man in the half court. His dimes have gone up the last couple years, and if he can create off the dribble, he should be able to get some shots for the big boys.

    Benchwise, long term we're building on Fred and Jeff. We need a third guy, though. Jeff can handle the post minutes behind JO and David, so we don't need another bruiser in the rotation. So, it comes down to if Fred can play point. If he can, than we need a shooter at the 3. If JJ ever gets his confidence back, he can potentially be what we'd need. Rebounds well, so that's a plus.

    If not, we need another point. I like AJ, but he's just not doing the job this year, and I'm worried the game is passing him by. Fred can guard points, so we don't need a stopper there. But if Fred doesn't get a better handle, we need someone who can run the offense. I was high on Gill when we got him, but I'm not comfortable with him, and it looks like Rick isn't either.

    So, to sum up, we need a defensive-minded SF who hits the boards, and quite possibly another point. Besides that, we seem to have the pieces in place, assuming eveyone reaches their potential. But this is all stacked like a house of cards in my mind's eye, and one weak link could bring it all down. Alot of that has to deal with coaching, which I'm not able to articulate just yet. Let's just say I'm worried about Mike Brown leaving.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Well, if Artest is not in the team's long term plans, I think a new direction is in order.

    If that is the case, I think it is crucial to build around JO, Tinsley, and Harrison.

    We have some other guys who have some nice trade value - work with that and get 'er done if that is the route you need to take.

    And please, PLEASE get a good backup PG.

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    Member Mushmouth's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by btownpacer
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    If we start Harrison (like we should), and put Foster in a back-up role, our bench could really use someone like Willie Green, a pure scorer.
    I'd be afraid that in a starting role, Harrison would tire out quickly and foul quickly, essentially giving us the same minutes as a second wave player. He does need a more prominant role tho. I would like to see Pollard start in lieu of Foster, w/ Foster spelling Jermaine/Pollard.

  20. #20
    Diesel
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Okay, assuming the following:

    -

    So, to sum up, we need a defensive-minded SF who hits the boards, and quite possibly another point. Besides that, we seem to have the pieces in place, assuming eveyone reaches their potential. But this is all stacked like a house of cards in my mind's eye, and one weak link could bring it all down. Alot of that has to deal with coaching, which I'm not able to articulate just yet. Let's just say I'm worried about Mike Brown leaving.

    In the begining of the offseason when there was talk about trading Ron Artest , Shawn Marion's name was brought up and many people shot that trade idea down. Its not going to happen now obviously but that would be a perfect small forward for this team. Great rebounder, very good defender and can obviously put the ball in the basket. It's funny how this position was strenght for us over the past three season's now all of a sudden its a major weakness for us.

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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    Indiana trades: PF Austin Croshere (10.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.8 apg in 29.0 minutes)
    SF Jonathan Bender (6.4 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.6 minutes)
    C Scot Pollard (6.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 0.8 apg in 24.6 minutes)
    SG Fred Jones (11.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.6 apg in 33.5 minutes)
    Indiana receives: PG Nick Van Exel (11.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 27.9 minutes)
    SG Derek Anderson (10.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg in 29.3 minutes)
    Change in team outlook: -13.2 ppg, -13.2 rpg, and +1.3 apg.

    Portland trades: PG Nick Van Exel (11.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 27.9 minutes)
    SG Derek Anderson (10.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg in 29.3 minutes)
    Portland receives: PF Austin Croshere (10.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.8 apg in 29.0 minutes)
    SF Jonathan Bender (6.4 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.6 minutes)
    C Scot Pollard (6.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 0.8 apg in 24.6 minutes)
    SG Fred Jones (11.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.6 apg in 33.5 minutes)
    Change in team outlook: +13.2 ppg, +13.2 rpg, and -1.3 apg.

    TRADE ACCEPTED

    This would be perfect for us. And not too bad for Portland. They get Freddie who is well liked there. Plus they get Pollard who is a decent C. So the trade would really be Freddie and Pollard for Nick and Derek with Cro and Bender thrown in and if they work out Portland looks good.
    I thought Nick is going to retire after this season. As least that what I heard in December.

    If we trade Artest, I would like to have get a bigger SF (Harrington?) and see Jackson move to the shoot guard position.

  22. #22
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel
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    In the begining of the offseason when there was talk about trading Ron Artest , Shawn Marion's name was brought up and many people shot that trade idea down. Its not going to happen now obviously but that would be a perfect small forward for this team. Great rebounder, very good defender and can obviously put the ball in the basket. It's funny how this position was strenght for us over the past three season's now all of a sudden its a major weakness for us.
    Marion's too offensive minded, and he'd fall apart in Carlisle's slow-it-down offense.
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  23. #23
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by fwpacerfan
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    I think a b/u point guard, a starting small forward, a starting center, a b/u shooting guard and a b/u power forward would be helpful.

    Sitting Reggie Miller and starting Fred Jones would help.
    Playing Eddie Gill instead of Anthony Johnson would help.
    Starting Stephen Jackson at SF helps.
    Trading Bender for Kevin Ollie and a bag of fruit would help

    I'm beginning to think this team needs to be overhauled. After watching yet ANOTHER lackluster performance last night I don't see anything that gives me hope that this team will not end up in the lottery. It's not a talent issue - it's an attitude issue and I don't know if it can be fixed.

    They look like a team that has tuned out the coaching staff and have decided that team basketball isn't the way to win. They seem to not even really care either. I'm sick of it and I'm as disgusted with this team as any I've ever rooted for. I would like to see some sort of trade done before the trading deadline, maybe to get some future draft picks because I really think the window of opportunity is slamming shut for this team - the Cavaliers are on the rise, the Bulls are on the rise, the Pistons are still young, the Wizards getting better. The common thing among these teams is that they show up to play EVERY night. This group of Pacers only seems to care when they play a top flight team and that is something that is unacceptable.

    Chill dude, they've had about 10 different starting combos. Tinsley has HAD to score for this team. Things will return as the lineup sets and they get back to normal.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushmouth
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    I'd be afraid that in a starting role, Harrison would tire out quickly and foul quickly, essentially giving us the same minutes as a second wave player. He does need a more prominant role tho. I would like to see Pollard start in lieu of Foster, w/ Foster spelling Jermaine/Pollard.
    I like the big kid a lot, but he's not a great rebounder, yet. Foster IS. You can't sit a guy averaging what he does. 24 minutes for Harrison/ same for Foster.
    Pollard plays against the trees.

  25. #25
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm stealing a line from Uncle Buck...

    I think the future is already here up front. Harrison and Jermaine will come to be a dominant inside tandem. I also think that Foster/Jermaine/Jackson could run the legs right off many opposing front lines. 1/2 a game of running the pants off them and the other 1/2 of big guys pounding the stuffing out of them in the post would be ok with me. That and Tinsleys setup will be the cornerstones of the future offense. Jackson is ok at the 3, I think he'll grow into again. Not sure if Freddie is going to blossom like I'd hoped. SOlid backup at the least. Regardless we'll need another spot shooter to replace Reggie. James Jones may be part of the answer, but we'd need another 3 pt shooter for sure.
    A top flight 2 guard OR 3 with Jackson at the other spot with the rest would a VERY good next few years.
    Bender staying healthy would change all this

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