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Thread: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

  1. #51

    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    This is a question for the CBA guru's.

    I think part of the Pacers reluctance to get Danny back in the action until he is totally ready to play is financial. According to the CBA FAQ, Danny's contract is covered by league wide insurance. Because Danny played so few games last season, he meets the qualifications for that insurance. That means 80% of his salary is paid by insurance. That seems to be a big incentive for the Pacers to wait to play Danny only when he is 100%. Letting him work himself into shape during actual games cost the Pacers about $170K per game. Letting him get in shape during practice costs about $35K per game. It seems an easy choice given the Pacers record.

    Is my analysis correct?

    There is a league-wide policy that insures the contracts of around 150 players each season . . . If an insured player is disabled, there is a 41 game waiting period, after which the insurance company pays 80% of the guaranteed portion of the player's remaining base salary, up to $175,000 per regular season game. The waiting period can span seasons, and the player even can attempt to come back -- if he does and finds that he is unable to play, the 41-game count resumes (as long as he stopped playing due to the same injury). . .
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    So a team is going to trade an expiring contract player that's capable of playing, for an expiring contract player that's incapable of playing just because they'd like too?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers should be looking for players with expiring contracts or team options for next year, like Jalen said on ESPN I'll be looking for a microwave kind of guy somebody that can come in and score 10/15 in short time.


    By the way for those that don't know Vogel said this morning that he is going to start giving minutes to Butler, my question is if DG is so close to play why Frank has decided to give minutes to Butler? let's hope that nothing is there.
    Ok, first, who are a couple of these guys that you think would work in a trade deal with Indiana? Second, why would a team give up a solid contributor for someone who you think is going to barely play if play at all? Is a second round pick really enough? I hope the Pacers don't trade another first round pick.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So we are back to do the same thing we did last year wait for him to be ready for the playoffs and probably get burned again? I'm sorry but if the guy is not doing anything and is not looking like he is going to play at a high level by the trade deadline I hope the Pacers are looking to move him.

    I'm telling you I'm going to be mad(yes again) if the Pacers don't look to move him for a player that can help us for a championship run, seriously how many times can a team get burned until they figure out that is not working?

    And before somebody tells me how inpatient this sounds I would like to remind you that it has been 19/20 months since we got to see DG play at a high level so is not like this is the first time we see this happening either.

    Note:I'm giving him until the trade deadline to look good and productive if not bye bye.
    Assuming he returns by Mid-January and is able to play a full month without any significant setbacks....I expect Granger to be shopped with Copeland regardless of the situation. However, I do not expect that Bird will be able to get the type of deal that he is looking for simply cuz it will be too hard to match salaries while taking back a Player that does not have a salary that minimally impacts the 2014-2015 ( and therefore our ability to re-sign Lance next season ).

    But to play JO'Bs advocate....what if ( in the unlikely scenario ) the Pacers are able to trade for a Player(s) that helps clear out the salary of Copeland ( your other favorite Player ) as well but that Player is someone that won't really help THIS season for any championship run?

    I'd wish that we could get more for Granger....but I'd be happy with it...only because dumping Copeland's contract would IMHO go a long way to re-signing Lance.

    At this point, Granger is only helpful either as Trade Bait to dump Copeland's Contract ( which I think is unlikely due to the reasons mentioned above ) or by remaining on the Team as the best ( but expensive ) 1st Wing off the bench for the remainder of the season. I can hope for more, but I'm not holding my breath.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-13-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  7. #55

    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    If Danny is 100%(as he says) and is just wanting to get back into game shape to not be a detriment to the team, why are we going crazy here? Because we think something else is going on? I'm not sure how that's possible when he has been competing in practice as the rest of the team does. He needs his cardio back, let him get it back. We aren't going to get a better contributor then Danny for a guy who hasn't played this year. It's still early in the season, relax. I think he'll be back after the Houston/Miami games coming up. Sunday December 22nd versus the Celtics is when I would hope/expect to see him.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    This is a question for the CBA guru's.

    I think part of the Pacers reluctance to get Danny back in the action until he is totally ready to play is financial. According to the CBA FAQ, Danny's contract is covered by league wide insurance. Because Danny played so few games last season, he meets the qualifications for that insurance. That means 80% of his salary is paid by insurance. That seems to be a big incentive for the Pacers to wait to play Danny only when he is 100%. Letting him work himself into shape during actual games cost the Pacers about $170K per game. Letting him get in shape during practice costs about $35K per game. It seems an easy choice given the Pacers record.

    Is my analysis correct?



    Link

    I wonder if preseason counts. Regardless, it is a different injury, so I think when the Pacers declared it was a strained calf instead of the knee, they forfeited the insurance. If Granger doesn't play until the halfway mark of the season or greater(or plays limited minutes are hurts it again) the insurance policy would begin to be paid out. This is yet another reason why the Pacers would have no reason to lie about what type of injury this is. They could be paying Danny roughly 3 million as opposed to the 14 million they are paying him now if it was still the knee injury.
    @qandrews9428

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers should be looking for players with expiring contracts or team options for next year, like Jalen said on ESPN I'll be looking for a microwave kind of guy somebody that can come in and score 10/15 in short time.
    So again, what team would do that? I mean the player has to be good enough to actually help us otherwise it's a pointless trade. So who is in a position AND willing to give up a good expiring player (or one with a team option), one who makes near $14 million or whatever, for Danny who presumably wouldn't be able to play, and is also expiring?

    Keep in mind expiring contracts are considered valuable trade pieces. Teams don't generally give them up for no reason.

    I would think that narrows down the list of potential players to, like, zero, or very close to zero. Who is that team? Who is that player?

    I can see hoping that something like this could happen if it becomes clear Danny can't help us. What I can't see is getting mad at the front office for not being able to magically make that happen. It would be the best trade Larry has ever done IMO if he managed to pull that off and actually bring back an expiring player who wouldn't upset chemistry and would actually help us win games in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way for those that don't know Vogel said this morning that he is going to start giving minutes to Butler, my question is if DG is so close to play why Frank has decided to give minutes to Butler? let's hope that nothing is there.
    I wouldn't read too much into that. I look at it as 2 seperate concerns.

    The Coaching, Training and Medical Staff want to keep him out a little longer for whatever reason whereas Granger likely "jumped the gun" with his announcement. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is something to be concerned about.....for all we know it could mean that there is a set back....but it could also mean the exact opposite. We ( obviously ) have no clue....we just know that they don't think that Granger is ready yet.

    As for playing Butler....I continue to look at this as Vogel doing his typical "Plug N Play" when it comes to finding the right fit for the 1st Wing Off the bench. This is no different than the horrific Copeland/Scola Frontcourt , OJ/Solo isn't exactly working out as best as Vogel would want....so he's going to try a more experienced 1st Wing off the bench tonight.

    IMHO.....I suspect that we will see that Butler is going to do WAY better than OJ/Solo on both ends of the court. He should be able to hit his shots and I'd guess that he won't be as lost on the defensive end as well SIMPLY because of his Veteran experience.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by rabid View Post
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    So again, what team would do that? I mean the player has to be good enough to actually help us otherwise it's a pointless trade. So who is in a position AND willing to give up a good expiring player (or one with a team option), one who makes near $14 million or whatever, for Danny who presumably wouldn't be able to play, and is also expiring?

    Keep in mind expiring contracts are considered valuable trade pieces. Teams don't generally give them up for no reason.

    I would think that narrows down the list of potential players to, like, zero, or very close to zero. Who is that team? Who is that player?

    I can see hoping that something like this could happen if it becomes clear Danny can't help us. What I can't see is getting mad at the front office for not being able to magically make that happen. It would be the best trade Larry has ever done IMO if he managed to pull that off and actually bring back an expiring player who wouldn't upset chemistry and would actually help us win games in the playoffs.
    I'm not going to be surprised if Granger is on the block ( along with Copeland ), but I am not going to be upset either if nothing materializes and Granger is on the roster on February 21st. It is just too difficult to trade Granger's contract ( but this assumes that Copeland can't simply be dumped for an Expiring Contract ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    Ok, first, who are a couple of these guys that you think would work in a trade deal with Indiana?
    Didn't want to mention names because some people here love to crap on any idea by showing stats and per36's but OK I'm going to do it for you

    Some names that come to mind(note that some of the names are not performing as they once did but are still better than having 14mil sitting on the bench):

    Ben Gordon: He is expiring and his salary matches the 14mil, we know Larry has always been a fan(previous reports), I don't believe MJ is just going to let him expire for nothing specially if he can get a similar expiring while getting a pick(second round pick).

    Marion: He is making 8mil so other players have to be included Cuban loves him so I'm not sure what the Pacers have to give for him.

    Paul Pierce: he makes 14mil and who knows maybe the Russian owner wants to move him for something? if they keep losing there could be a chance.

    There is also guys like Varejao, Salmons, Ariza, Hawes?

    Second, why would a team give up a solid contributor for someone who you think is going to barely play if play at all? Is a second round pick really enough? I hope the Pacers don't trade another first round pick.
    I expect some teams to go into tanking mode pretty soon so a group of players are going to become available, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly and many others are going to be looking to get as many picks as they can for some of their players.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Didn't want to mention names because some people here love to crap on any idea by showing stats and per36's but OK I'm going to do it for you

    Some names that come to mind(note that some of the names are not performing as they once did but are still better than having 14mil sitting on the bench):

    Ben Gordon: He is expiring and his salary matches the 14mil, we know Larry has always been a fan(previous reports), I don't believe MJ is just going to let him expire for nothing specially if he can get a similar expiring while getting a pick(second round pick).

    Marion: He is making 8mil so other players have to be included Cuban loves him so I'm not sure what the Pacers have to give for him.

    Paul Pierce: he makes 14mil and who knows maybe the Russian owner wants to move him for something? if they keep losing there could be a chance.

    There is also guys like Varejao, Salmons, Ariza, Hawes?



    I expect some teams to go into tanking mode pretty soon so a group of players are going to become available, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly and many others are going to be looking to get as many picks as they can for some of their players.
    I appreciate you putting together those names, but the stumbling block for me is understanding why their current teams would give them up for essentially a 2nd round pick. The contracts are a wash, so it isn't like the other team is dumping salary. Those guys can at least see the floor (or you wouldn't be mentioning them) and you're trading Danny because you think he won't. I'm not seeing that those teams need to dump one of those players in order to play someone younger or move someone into a rotation or even in order to tank (either they are already bad enough or a last pick in the second round has the least possible value).

    We know what our assumed upside is from your point of view. What is the assumed upside for the other team?
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    The following is a tweet from Monteith:



    https://twitter.com/MarkMontieth/sta...62065363357696






    Had lengthy Q&A with Larry Bird. He wants Granger to sit awhile longer. "He's pretty rusty. I want him to be in shape before he goes out."



    Sent from my Nokia phone using Tapatalk.
    Last edited by The Sleeze; 12-13-2013 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Some names that come to mind(note that some of the names are not performing as they once did but are still better than having 14mil sitting on the bench):

    Ben Gordon: He is expiring and his salary matches the 14mil, we know Larry has always been a fan(previous reports), I don't believe MJ is just going to let him expire for nothing specially if he can get a similar expiring while getting a pick(second round pick).

    Marion: He is making 8mil so other players have to be included Cuban loves him so I'm not sure what the Pacers have to give for him.

    Paul Pierce: he makes 14mil and who knows maybe the Russian owner wants to move him for something? if they keep losing there could be a chance.

    There is also guys like Varejao, Salmons, Ariza, Hawes?

    I expect some teams to go into tanking mode pretty soon so a group of players are going to become available, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly and many others are going to be looking to get as many picks as they can for some of their players.
    Of your list....Gordon seems like the only viable option that ( in any way ) makes sense. Maybe something centered around Granger+Copeland+Warriors 2014-2015 2nd round pick for Gordon+Adrien? As you said...Gordon's a total Microwave Player...Bird LOVED him before ( and we all know that Bird never forgets about the Players that he "covets" ) and he's an expiring.

    The only other option that could work from a Matching Salaries POV is a swap of Granger for Pierce....but from a personal preference perspective....I'd live with Granger over Pierce.

    As for the rest....the it would be too difficult to make salaries match ( most of the Players you listed are owed less than $10 mil....while Granger is owed $14+ mil )...assuming that one of the Goals that Bird wants to achieve is to take back VERY LITTLE to NO 2014-2015 salary back from such a trade.

    One more thing to note....which I DID NOT know about is that the Pacers have a $1.1 mil Trade Exception from the Plumlee trade. That could be a useful asset to have in our pocket come trade deadline time.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-13-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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  20. #64

    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    I wonder if preseason counts. Regardless, it is a different injury, so I think when the Pacers declared it was a strained calf instead of the knee, they forfeited the insurance. If Granger doesn't play until the halfway mark of the season or greater(or plays limited minutes are hurts it again) the insurance policy would begin to be paid out. This is yet another reason why the Pacers would have no reason to lie about what type of injury this is. They could be paying Danny roughly 3 million as opposed to the 14 million they are paying him now if it was still the knee injury.
    If you check the link, the insurance coverage can start and stop. Until Danny gets back and plays, he is still insured. I think. Read the CBA FAQ link. It has more details that I edited out.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I expect some teams to go into tanking mode pretty soon so a group of players are going to become available, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly and many others are going to be looking to get as many picks as they can for some of their players.
    Exactly, which is why thinking they'll trade them for one of the last 4 picks of the second round isn't realistic.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I appreciate you putting together those names, but the stumbling block for me is understanding why their current teams would give them up for essentially a 2nd round pick. The contracts are a wash, so it isn't like the other team is dumping salary. Those guys can at least see the floor (or you wouldn't be mentioning them) and you're trading Danny because you think he won't. I'm not seeing that those teams need to dump one of those players in order to play someone younger or move someone into a rotation or even in order to tank (either they are already bad enough or a last pick in the second round has the least possible value).

    We know what our assumed upside is from your point of view. What is the assumed upside for the other team?
    Bills there has been a lot of reports that the Bobcats are looking to move Ben Gordon for almost anything, Salmons is going to Toronto and they are also looking to move him for whatever, I don't think is impossible as some of you think, how many people thought Troy Murphy was going to get us DC? or how many people thought we had a chance to get Scola for a package that included Gerald Green?

    I'm not saying that is easy but I'm not acting like is impossible either because I have seen it happen before.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    So now rather than an injury keeping Danny out, its just him not being in game shape. If this was a few seasons ago, Danny would probably be playing. But we are 19-3, trying to get that #1 seed and don't want to upset a good thing going while getting Danny back in game mode. He's practicing every day, he will be playing soon.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I appreciate you putting together those names, but the stumbling block for me is understanding why their current teams would give them up for essentially a 2nd round pick. The contracts are a wash, so it isn't like the other team is dumping salary. Those guys can at least see the floor (or you wouldn't be mentioning them) and you're trading Danny because you think he won't. I'm not seeing that those teams need to dump one of those players in order to play someone younger or move someone into a rotation or even in order to tank (either they are already bad enough or a last pick in the second round has the least possible value).

    We know what our assumed upside is from your point of view. What is the assumed upside for the other team?
    Of the Players that vnzla81 has listed.....the only one that I can see as an option is some swap of Granger for Ben Gordon.

    We know why Bird may trade for Gordon....as for why the Bobcats would trade him for Granger? Maybe getting another 2nd round pick? maybe Granger could be a better fit on the defensive end than Gordon? Keep in mind....I think ( and I could be wrong ) that Gordon is in the dog house with the Coach...or at the very least...he gets very inconsistent minutes. Maybe a change in scenery could change that.

    It's hard to think of any real reason why any Team would swap Expiring contracts...but I can ( if I squint real hard ) see a reason for a Ben for DG swap.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Exactly, which is why thinking they'll trade them for one of the last 4 picks of the second round isn't realistic.
    We also have the Warriors 2nd round pick. It may still be a mid 50s pick...but it will likely be better than the Pacers 2nd round pick
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Exactly, which is why thinking they'll trade them for one of the last 4 picks of the second round isn't realistic.
    Deepest draft in 10 years? I think is realistic.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Deepest draft in 10 years? I think is realistic.
    Deep to the last pick of the second round? You gotta have some serious confidence in your scouting, and if you were that good you wouldn't be in the position of tanking and trying to amass tons of draft picks.

    I'd probably rather take my chances on the undrafted guys and offer them training camp contracts than go through a big rigmarole of a trade that nets only one 2nd rounder. I mean, unless the guy I'm getting rid of is a locker room cancer or has some other secret problem - in which case why would the Pacers want that?
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm not saying that is easy but I'm not acting like is impossible either because I have seen it happen before.
    Have you seen something as drastic as two huge expirings being traded straight up before? Serious question, as I can't remember one but I'm not as into trades that don't involve my team. The expiring coming back equal to the expiring going is key.
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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Deepest draft in 10 years? I think is realistic.

    One hell of a draft if you're thinking it's going to be 50-60 players deep. I get thinking that there might be a Tony Parker out there, but you don't give up a player like Ben Gordon on hope.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    If you check the link, the insurance coverage can start and stop. Until Danny gets back and plays, he is still insured. I think. Read the CBA FAQ link. It has more details that I edited out.
    The waiting period can span seasons, and the player even can attempt to come back -- if he does and finds that he is unable to play, the 41-game count resumes (as long as he stopped playing due to the same injury)
    This is what makes me think it's possible he isn't covered right now. I think its possible though since he sustained consecutive injuries that they would be covered. The link doesn't make it much more clear.
    @qandrews9428

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    Default Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Deep to the last pick of the second round? You gotta have some serious confidence in your scouting, and if you were that good you wouldn't be in the position of tanking and trying to amass tons of draft picks.

    I'd probably rather take my chances on the undrafted guys and offer them training camp contracts than go through a big rigmarole of a trade that nets only one 2nd rounder. I mean, unless the guy I'm getting rid of is a locker room cancer or has some other secret problem - in which case why would the Pacers want that?
    Robert Sacre was the last pick of the 2012 draft for the Lakers and he is doing OK there, two picks before him Robbie Hummel was drafted, not saying that somebody is going to draft the next Paul George but there is some value on the second round especially in one of the deepest drafts ever(2012 was not that deep).

    And Bills there was rumors that MJ was going to trade Gordon for Humpries straight up(same contracts) no picks were included, so yeah it's possible.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/89...al-sources-say


    edit: Crap I almost forgot that Isaiah Thomas was drafted last in the 2011 NBA draft, that is working out pretty good.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-13-2013 at 04:12 PM.

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