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Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

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  • #46
    Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

    Originally posted by boombaby1987 View Post
    What are you looking for as an asset for Granger? I don't know what your feeling is on Stephenson, but how do you plan to resign Lance if we take back any salary at all for Danny? If he never plays up to a decent standard again, thats unfortunate, but I think the long term solution is just to let his contract expire and move on. Unless of course you could offload some additional salary in the theoretical deal(basically either Copeland/Mahinmi), but that would probably mean giving up future picks, and losing a solid defensive bench piece in Ian.
    It would have to be an expiring contract, and it would have to be someone who fills a need we have, basically what Danny was supposed to give us (replacement for Solo/OJ's minutes), and possibly a 3rd string center, but again it has to all be expiring contracts. Also you run the risk of chemistry issues if you bring in a brand new face mid-season. Lots of risks there, and probably not very many teams/players that fit that narrow criteria (i.e. why would another team give up quality expiring contracts for another expiring contract that might not even be able to play? It just doesnt make sense).

    I just don't see us trading Danny, even if he never sees the floor. Anything other than expiring contracts means we lose Lance and Larry just isn't going to do that I don't think. Not with such a young core and the belief that we will have multiple shots at this.

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    • #47
      Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

      Originally posted by rabid View Post
      It would have to be an expiring contract, and it would have to be someone who fills a need we have, basically what Danny was supposed to give us (replacement for Solo/OJ's minutes), and possibly a 3rd string center, but again it has to all be expiring contracts. Also you run the risk of chemistry issues if you bring in a brand new face mid-season. Lots of risks there, and probably not very many teams/players that fit that narrow criteria (i.e. why would another team give up quality expiring contracts for another expiring contract that might not even be able to play? It just doesnt make sense).

      I just don't see us trading Danny, even if he never sees the floor. Anything other than expiring contracts means we lose Lance and Larry just isn't going to do that I don't think. Not with such a young core and the belief that we will have multiple shots at this.
      Agreed, the only asset the Pacers would be willing to move is the second round pick in addition to Danny. Also, unless a team is way under the cap, basically Philly(can't think of any others), it would have to be a fairly similar contract.
      There is no NBA player named Monte Ellis.

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      • #48
        Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

        Again, unless we're planning to pull a Marlins and win a single championship then go back to the doldrums you'd be crazy to move Danny for anything other than an expiring wing or center who is playing well off the bench for another team - and who is going to trade an expiring for an expiring who can't play when the only throw-in is a late 2nd rounder in 2014 or at best a mid-round 1st in 2015?

        Taking on multiple years of an equivalent salary to Danny is only valuable if you are actually getting someone better than Lance.
        BillS

        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
        Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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        • #49
          Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
          Note:I'm giving him until the trade deadline to look good and productive if not bye bye.
          Honest question: who, specifically, do you think we would try to trade for, and why would that other team make that trade? Apologies if you're already answered this but I haven't seen it

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          • #50
            Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

            Originally posted by boombaby1987 View Post
            What are you looking for as an asset for Granger? I don't know what your feeling is on Stephenson, but how do you plan to resign Lance if we take back any salary at all for Danny? If he never plays up to a decent standard again, thats unfortunate, but I think the long term solution is just to let his contract expire and move on. Unless of course you could offload some additional salary in the theoretical deal(basically either Copeland/Mahinmi), but that would probably mean giving up future picks, and losing a solid defensive bench piece in Ian.

            The Pacers should be looking for players with expiring contracts or team options for next year, like Jalen said on ESPN I'll be looking for a microwave kind of guy somebody that can come in and score 10/15 in short time.


            By the way for those that don't know Vogel said this morning that he is going to start giving minutes to Butler, my question is if DG is so close to play why Frank has decided to give minutes to Butler? let's hope that nothing is there.
            @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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            • #51
              Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

              This is a question for the CBA guru's.

              I think part of the Pacers reluctance to get Danny back in the action until he is totally ready to play is financial. According to the CBA FAQ, Danny's contract is covered by league wide insurance. Because Danny played so few games last season, he meets the qualifications for that insurance. That means 80% of his salary is paid by insurance. That seems to be a big incentive for the Pacers to wait to play Danny only when he is 100%. Letting him work himself into shape during actual games cost the Pacers about $170K per game. Letting him get in shape during practice costs about $35K per game. It seems an easy choice given the Pacers record.

              Is my analysis correct?

              There is a league-wide policy that insures the contracts of around 150 players each season . . . If an insured player is disabled, there is a 41 game waiting period, after which the insurance company pays 80% of the guaranteed portion of the player's remaining base salary, up to $175,000 per regular season game. The waiting period can span seasons, and the player even can attempt to come back -- if he does and finds that he is unable to play, the 41-game count resumes (as long as he stopped playing due to the same injury). . .
              Link

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              • #52
                Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                So a team is going to trade an expiring contract player that's capable of playing, for an expiring contract player that's incapable of playing just because they'd like too?
                Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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                • #53
                  Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                  Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                  The Pacers should be looking for players with expiring contracts or team options for next year, like Jalen said on ESPN I'll be looking for a microwave kind of guy somebody that can come in and score 10/15 in short time.


                  By the way for those that don't know Vogel said this morning that he is going to start giving minutes to Butler, my question is if DG is so close to play why Frank has decided to give minutes to Butler? let's hope that nothing is there.
                  Ok, first, who are a couple of these guys that you think would work in a trade deal with Indiana? Second, why would a team give up a solid contributor for someone who you think is going to barely play if play at all? Is a second round pick really enough? I hope the Pacers don't trade another first round pick.
                  There is no NBA player named Monte Ellis.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                    So we are back to do the same thing we did last year wait for him to be ready for the playoffs and probably get burned again? I'm sorry but if the guy is not doing anything and is not looking like he is going to play at a high level by the trade deadline I hope the Pacers are looking to move him.

                    I'm telling you I'm going to be mad(yes again) if the Pacers don't look to move him for a player that can help us for a championship run, seriously how many times can a team get burned until they figure out that is not working?

                    And before somebody tells me how inpatient this sounds I would like to remind you that it has been 19/20 months since we got to see DG play at a high level so is not like this is the first time we see this happening either.

                    Note:I'm giving him until the trade deadline to look good and productive if not bye bye.
                    Assuming he returns by Mid-January and is able to play a full month without any significant setbacks....I expect Granger to be shopped with Copeland regardless of the situation. However, I do not expect that Bird will be able to get the type of deal that he is looking for simply cuz it will be too hard to match salaries while taking back a Player that does not have a salary that minimally impacts the 2014-2015 ( and therefore our ability to re-sign Lance next season ).

                    But to play JO'Bs advocate....what if ( in the unlikely scenario ) the Pacers are able to trade for a Player(s) that helps clear out the salary of Copeland ( your other favorite Player ) as well but that Player is someone that won't really help THIS season for any championship run?

                    I'd wish that we could get more for Granger....but I'd be happy with it...only because dumping Copeland's contract would IMHO go a long way to re-signing Lance.

                    At this point, Granger is only helpful either as Trade Bait to dump Copeland's Contract ( which I think is unlikely due to the reasons mentioned above ) or by remaining on the Team as the best ( but expensive ) 1st Wing off the bench for the remainder of the season. I can hope for more, but I'm not holding my breath.
                    Last edited by CableKC; 12-13-2013, 04:09 PM.
                    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                      If Danny is 100%(as he says) and is just wanting to get back into game shape to not be a detriment to the team, why are we going crazy here? Because we think something else is going on? I'm not sure how that's possible when he has been competing in practice as the rest of the team does. He needs his cardio back, let him get it back. We aren't going to get a better contributor then Danny for a guy who hasn't played this year. It's still early in the season, relax. I think he'll be back after the Houston/Miami games coming up. Sunday December 22nd versus the Celtics is when I would hope/expect to see him.
                      Dear P_George,
                      You have received an infraction at Pacers Digest.

                      Reason: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content

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                      • #56
                        Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                        Originally posted by xIndyFan View Post
                        This is a question for the CBA guru's.

                        I think part of the Pacers reluctance to get Danny back in the action until he is totally ready to play is financial. According to the CBA FAQ, Danny's contract is covered by league wide insurance. Because Danny played so few games last season, he meets the qualifications for that insurance. That means 80% of his salary is paid by insurance. That seems to be a big incentive for the Pacers to wait to play Danny only when he is 100%. Letting him work himself into shape during actual games cost the Pacers about $170K per game. Letting him get in shape during practice costs about $35K per game. It seems an easy choice given the Pacers record.

                        Is my analysis correct?



                        Link

                        I wonder if preseason counts. Regardless, it is a different injury, so I think when the Pacers declared it was a strained calf instead of the knee, they forfeited the insurance. If Granger doesn't play until the halfway mark of the season or greater(or plays limited minutes are hurts it again) the insurance policy would begin to be paid out. This is yet another reason why the Pacers would have no reason to lie about what type of injury this is. They could be paying Danny roughly 3 million as opposed to the 14 million they are paying him now if it was still the knee injury.
                        There is no NBA player named Monte Ellis.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                          The Pacers should be looking for players with expiring contracts or team options for next year, like Jalen said on ESPN I'll be looking for a microwave kind of guy somebody that can come in and score 10/15 in short time.
                          So again, what team would do that? I mean the player has to be good enough to actually help us otherwise it's a pointless trade. So who is in a position AND willing to give up a good expiring player (or one with a team option), one who makes near $14 million or whatever, for Danny who presumably wouldn't be able to play, and is also expiring?

                          Keep in mind expiring contracts are considered valuable trade pieces. Teams don't generally give them up for no reason.

                          I would think that narrows down the list of potential players to, like, zero, or very close to zero. Who is that team? Who is that player?

                          I can see hoping that something like this could happen if it becomes clear Danny can't help us. What I can't see is getting mad at the front office for not being able to magically make that happen. It would be the best trade Larry has ever done IMO if he managed to pull that off and actually bring back an expiring player who wouldn't upset chemistry and would actually help us win games in the playoffs.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                            By the way for those that don't know Vogel said this morning that he is going to start giving minutes to Butler, my question is if DG is so close to play why Frank has decided to give minutes to Butler? let's hope that nothing is there.
                            I wouldn't read too much into that. I look at it as 2 seperate concerns.

                            The Coaching, Training and Medical Staff want to keep him out a little longer for whatever reason whereas Granger likely "jumped the gun" with his announcement. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is something to be concerned about.....for all we know it could mean that there is a set back....but it could also mean the exact opposite. We ( obviously ) have no clue....we just know that they don't think that Granger is ready yet.

                            As for playing Butler....I continue to look at this as Vogel doing his typical "Plug N Play" when it comes to finding the right fit for the 1st Wing Off the bench. This is no different than the horrific Copeland/Scola Frontcourt , OJ/Solo isn't exactly working out as best as Vogel would want....so he's going to try a more experienced 1st Wing off the bench tonight.

                            IMHO.....I suspect that we will see that Butler is going to do WAY better than OJ/Solo on both ends of the court. He should be able to hit his shots and I'd guess that he won't be as lost on the defensive end as well SIMPLY because of his Veteran experience.
                            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                              Originally posted by rabid View Post
                              So again, what team would do that? I mean the player has to be good enough to actually help us otherwise it's a pointless trade. So who is in a position AND willing to give up a good expiring player (or one with a team option), one who makes near $14 million or whatever, for Danny who presumably wouldn't be able to play, and is also expiring?

                              Keep in mind expiring contracts are considered valuable trade pieces. Teams don't generally give them up for no reason.

                              I would think that narrows down the list of potential players to, like, zero, or very close to zero. Who is that team? Who is that player?

                              I can see hoping that something like this could happen if it becomes clear Danny can't help us. What I can't see is getting mad at the front office for not being able to magically make that happen. It would be the best trade Larry has ever done IMO if he managed to pull that off and actually bring back an expiring player who wouldn't upset chemistry and would actually help us win games in the playoffs.
                              I'm not going to be surprised if Granger is on the block ( along with Copeland ), but I am not going to be upset either if nothing materializes and Granger is on the roster on February 21st. It is just too difficult to trade Granger's contract ( but this assumes that Copeland can't simply be dumped for an Expiring Contract ).
                              Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Granger Out Friday - Indy Star

                                Originally posted by boombaby1987 View Post
                                Ok, first, who are a couple of these guys that you think would work in a trade deal with Indiana?
                                Didn't want to mention names because some people here love to crap on any idea by showing stats and per36's but OK I'm going to do it for you

                                Some names that come to mind(note that some of the names are not performing as they once did but are still better than having 14mil sitting on the bench):

                                Ben Gordon: He is expiring and his salary matches the 14mil, we know Larry has always been a fan(previous reports), I don't believe MJ is just going to let him expire for nothing specially if he can get a similar expiring while getting a pick(second round pick).

                                Marion: He is making 8mil so other players have to be included Cuban loves him so I'm not sure what the Pacers have to give for him.

                                Paul Pierce: he makes 14mil and who knows maybe the Russian owner wants to move him for something? if they keep losing there could be a chance.

                                There is also guys like Varejao, Salmons, Ariza, Hawes?

                                Second, why would a team give up a solid contributor for someone who you think is going to barely play if play at all? Is a second round pick really enough? I hope the Pacers don't trade another first round pick.
                                I expect some teams to go into tanking mode pretty soon so a group of players are going to become available, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly and many others are going to be looking to get as many picks as they can for some of their players.
                                @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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