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Thread: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

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    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    I've pulled the Pacers-centric portion. You can read the entire article here: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...tive-defenders

    The other Pacers

    We know Roy Hibbert is really good at defense. We know his Pacers have been one of the best defenses ever thus far. When Kevin Pelton (Insider) wrote about this the other day, he pointed out that the Pacers were giving up fewer than 94 points per 100 possessions in a league that averages 106. No other team is close. So the Pacers are killing it.

    And as I just dug through NBA.com/stats looking at player combinations, there's no arguing Hibbert is the dominant reason. In fact, if you take every two-player combination in the league, from every team, the best combination out of all of those thousands, in terms of holding opponents to the fewest points per possession, is the Pacers' Roy Hibbert and David West.

    In and of itself that does not prove they are the two best defenders. Far from it. But it would be just about impossible for them to be so high on the list while being lousy at defense. And that they belong there is affirmed by this: The second best combination out of the whole league? Hibbert and Paul George. Fourth best is Hibbert and George Hill. Amazingly, Pacers account for nine of the league's dozen most effective two-player defensive combinations, and Hibbert is part of most of 'em.

    Just as it's impossible to argue Hibbert is anything but great on defense, it's also impossible to argue that he's the only reason the Pacers are good. The Pacers' center is only playing 30 minutes a game, and the Pacers are good on defense all night.

    This is not a question of the starting five carrying everybody. None of the Pacers' five-man lineups, in fact, are in the league's ten most effective defensively. It really is a team effort.

    When Hibbert is on the bench, the Pacers give up 98.7 points per 100 possessions, which would still be a top 10 NBA defense.

    Of course, George, who has been discussed as a candidate as both MVP and a first-team all-NBA defense, is a big part of that. Even though he's the epicenter of the Pacers' offense -- in a role where many players would catch their breath on defense -- George expends serious energy guarding some of the league's finest scorers. Despite those challenges, he's still a mainstay among the Pacers' best defensive combinations. When George sits, opponents score a little better than when Hibbert sits.

    But you know who else has been on the floor for long minutes of great defense for the Pacers? Almost everybody. David West, C.J. Watson, George Hill, Orlando Johnson, Lance Stephenson,Luis Scola -- these are not the Pacers' most famous defenders. I have named eight Pacers in this article. Put any three of those players together on the court, and Pacers are playing good defense.

    When any or all of them are on the court, the Pacers as a team average better defensive performance than the Spurs, who are the league's second-best defensive team.

    It's almost impossible to find any combination of Pacer players that is bad on defense. It's amazing. (3-point specialist Chris Copeland might be the one exception. He has not been great on defense, the statistics say, but he is also new to the team and has averaged less than four minutes a game so it's hard to know what the future holds for him.)

    Clearly, coach Frank Vogel knows something.
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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Amazing stats about Hibbert. It's just my opinion but I see Hibbert as more important to this team then PG simply because he effects the game plan of the opposing team more. If we remove PG we lose a lot of games but I thing we lose more if we remove Hibbert from the lineup. I'm glad we have Paul locked down but my biggest concern in the near future isn't Lance or Danny next summer, it's Hibbert when he opts out the following Summer. If we ever had a reason to go into the LT we have to do it to keep Hibbert.

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Amazing stats about Hibbert. It's just my opinion but I see Hibbert as more important to this team then PG simply because he effects the game plan of the opposing team more. If we remove PG we lose a lot of games but I thing we lose more if we remove Hibbert from the lineup. I'm glad we have Paul locked down but my biggest concern in the near future isn't Lance or Danny next summer, it's Hibbert when he opts out the following Summer. If we ever had a reason to go into the LT we have to do it to keep Hibbert.
    If we're winning, and Vogel is still here, then he will not opt out. Take that to the bank.

    Sent from my LG-G2 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    If we're winning, and Vogel is still here, then he will not opt out. Take that to the bank.
    Really ?? He'll opt out in a nano-second to land himself another contract. Unless he gets injured, there's no way he'll miss out on another 3, 4 5 years of guaranteed cash.

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    This is not a question of the starting five carrying everybody. None of the Pacers' five-man lineups, in fact, are in the league's ten most effective defensively. It really is a team effort.

    I am confused a little. How can that be and yet we are the best defensive team overall and have the best two man combos.

    can someone explain

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    . When George sits, opponents score a little better than when Hibbert sits.

    I think if we had taken a forum poll 80% would have figured it to be just the opposite. Even though it is worded a little strangely, according to this it suggests that PG is more important to our defense than Roy.

    At the forum party last summer a question was asked, who is more valuable PG or Roy. Not who ius better, but more valuable. Most argued Roy because of his overall impact on defense being greater than PG. Well according to this article that might not be true. (I argued that PG is more valuable, but even I probably would have said that Roy has a greater impact on defense than does PG)

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am confused a little. How can that be and yet we are the best defensive team overall and have the best two man combos.

    can someone explain
    It is very possibly because while other teams have a great defensive 5-man unit, other combinations fall off drastically OR that unit doesn't play together much. It's similar to the way you might have the #1 defender on the team and yet give up points other places.

    or, simplistically:

    average of 1st and 6th 5-man unit would be 3.5
    average of 2nd and 3rd 5-man unit is 2.5

    having the second and third units means you have a better overall defense than if you have the first and sixth.
    BillS

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    If we're winning, and Vogel is still here, then he will not opt out. Take that to the bank.

    Sent from my LG-G2 using Tapatalk
    I love Roy but he and his agent showed us the last time that money is the force. Roy will opt out and if we want to keep him he'll be getting a contract close to 20 mil.to start and over 20 mil in the end. If we want to win we have to do it.

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Anyone have an explanation as to why according to this PG is more important to our defense than Roy. Or am I mireading this?


    When George sits, opponents score a little better than when Hibbert sits.

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am confused a little. How can that be and yet we are the best defensive team overall and have the best two man combos.

    can someone explain
    If you run the top DRtg 5 man units, the Pacers have 2 of the top ten (8 and 9). However, all ten of those lineups have played only about 20-30 minutes together. In other words, not a lot.

    So, he had some kind of per-game or total-minutes-played filter on there. He doesn't mention that, which is bad form on his part if you ask me.

    Let's filter out any lineup that hasn't played at least 200 minutes together (a little less than 10 minutes a game together per game).

    Oh, look at that. The Pacer's starting 5 is #1.

    Let's kick it down to 100 minutes.

    Pacers are now #2 to this Bobcats lineup:
    Henderson,Gerald - Jefferson,Al - Kidd-Gilchrist,Michael - McRoberts,Josh - Walker,Kemba

    Setting the filter to 50 minutes makes a Pacers lineup #9.

    We are out of options. My guess is that his filter was very low. He wrote this article yesterday, so teams shuffled around a bit on the low end of the spectrum.

    Either that, or he ran the numbers with no filter at all and they shifted a bunch with last night's action.

    Pay attention to your sample sizes, professional NBA writers!

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Anyone have an explanation as to why according to this PG is more important to our defense than Roy. Or am I mireading this?

    The difference between Orlando Johnson's defense vs. Ian Mahinmi's?

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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    ^^ that's it, value above replacement. Not that when Orlando comes in for Paul he always guards who Paul was guarding. It seems like more often than not Lance takes over who Paul was guarding, if Lance is on the floor.

    Which shows how good PG is, since Lance is no slouch.

    The lesser dropoff to Mahinmi may be a little misleading since I think Frank is pretty careful to not put Ian in when he has an especially tough matchup, and as we discussed in another thread, probably no other position on the court has such a big dropoff in talent as starting center vs. backup center. Even though there's not that many really good centers, the number of even marginally capable backup centers is very low so Ian's individual matchup is not overwhelming and he can focus on helping out.
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    Default Re: TrueHoop piece about defense with Pacers section

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Anyone have an explanation as to why according to this PG is more important to our defense than Roy. Or am I mireading this?

    Skewed result based on the percentage of perimeter shots teams have to take against the Pacers? It would be more effective when Paul goes out and would not suddenly change to inside drives when Roy goes out.
    BillS

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