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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    So LeBron grabs a rebound and in the process of grabbing said rebound a Pacer player brought his arm down in the general vicinity of where his excellence was running. This allows the greatest player in the game today and arguably one of the greatest players to ever play the game to do the one single thing that he doesnít need to do to be great. While the arm was in the area (it might have been Lance but I donít remember) it was nowhere near James. However that did not stop him from thrusting his head back as though he were struck in the face by a 2 x 4.

    Problem for LeBron was though that the referee wasnít buying it, this blatant flopping attempt drew the ire of the crowd (rightly so) and in response to this LeBron instead of ignoring the situation decides that he is a better actor than everyone elseís eyes are viewers and then proceeds to rub and hold his nose as though it were broken. Again sadly for him it still didnít work. He would not let it go though even on the way back down the court after the next play he still grabbed his nose acting like the longer he would do this that we would go ďoh, okay he must have gotten hitĒ.

    Iíve seen LeBron James every game here since he was a rookie. I saw Michael Jordanís every game here since 85 and while I hated Jordan with the passion of a white hot sun, never EVER did I once see him flop like this. Now donít get me wrong his airness had the benefit of every quick whistle that was ever blown and as Hersey Hawkins once said after a game he touches you itís a steal you touch him itís a foul. But Michael never begged for it like LeBron does. Jordan came of age in a time when the NBA was far more physical and tough; for Godís sake he had to go through the bad boy Pistons to get over the mountain top. But he never to the best of my memory pretended he was hit 75í from his basket trying to draw a foul and then further to go on making an idiot of himself by not moving forward without making it more obvious by pretending to rub something that wasnít even there.

    Why do I bring this up? Simple, first and foremost he doesnít need this. Second there are a lot of comparisons going around about King James vs. His Airness and I want to weigh in on one thing about this.

    Michael Jordan was afraid of no one. There was no player who he would allow alter his game. Mt. Mutombo was nothing more than a vertical line he would try and scale, one of his most iconic dunks of all time is him making fools of John Starks & Charles Oakley on the side only to run at and Jump over Patrick Ewing for a dunk and a foul.

    LeBron James is intimidated by Roy Hibbert. You heard me right, I said it clearly & Iíll say it again LeBron James is intimidated by Roy Hibbert and passes away from him on almost every opportunity. Michael Jordan would never have done this, even maybe to the detriment of his team I donít know but I know there would never be a time he wouldnít attack him.

    Sorry I know that the above doesnít have much to do with anything but I needed to let that out.

    Another thing when the Heat come to town here I always wonder. I know Chicago & Cleveland fans do it as well so I know we arenít the only ones but are we really the only three fan bases that actually openly hate the Heat? I have always believed that LeBron could not understand that when he came here because even in towns that support their home teams fans generally love and appreciate him, not here, never here. Not even when we were at our worst fan wise. For whatever reason the Heat have not been able to attract the local market like they have in other cityís.

    The Heat are a very weird team to play against though as their offense starts with usually 4 of the 5 players at or above the three point line. They want to spread you out and then drive on you. This works against most teams and it works against us as well at times but it works less on us than others because most of our players are very long and the players on their team that drive are also guarded by players on our team that are not only long but also very quick laterally. Iíve often wondered how a zone would work on them but the one way to destroy a zone is to hit open shots and they do have shooters that can burn you if you let them.

    BTW, did anyone else see David West lay a hard shoulder on James drawing an offensive foul? I have a feeling from watching it that David got that foul on purpose and laid that hard shoulder on him right in front of the referee and didnít care. I donít know if he was sending a message or retaliating but it was kind of fun to watch.

    BTW, while our bench still needs something isnít it nice to not have our anuses shrink because our point guard and power forward coming in off of the pine do not always lose leads and on occasion actually help give the team a boost. Wasnít it nice to see David West be able to sit and Scola stay in there for a good amount of time in the 4th and not freak out at Frank for not getting West back in there. This is already a world of difference from last season.

    You know if you think about it 19-3 is beyond magical. But letís break it down to even a micro schedule for a min. Do you realize that our last three games have been against the Spurs, the Thunder & the Heat and we have won 2 of those 3? How special is that? Last season if we would have went 1-2 we would have been pretty happy. The year before that 1-2 would have been thrilling and before that 0-3 would have been expected. This year is so different from any year we have ever seen with our club that almost every game is new territory for us. The thrill and wonder of actually and confidently saying that we fear no team is amazing.

    We won tonightís game with Paul George & Georg Hill all having what I consider for them to be somewhat sub par nightís. Our big men came through and we got enough from our bench to pull this out (Lance also had a good night).

    Letís do grades:

    Paul George: B+ Steady defense made up for tired legs and an abundance of min. (we need some wing help from the bench) that Paul has had to play. Heís only had to play Kevin Durrant and LeBron James in back to back games so thatís no big deal, yeah right. The one big difference between Durrant and George is that Paul actually is good enough on defense that he guards his man while Kevin guarded Lance and even LeBron tonight switched off of Paul a few times. Missed some shots early in the game that he normally makes but again I think nerves and a rough schedule had as much if not more to do with that than any Heat defense. It will be nice for him to have a couple of days of rest.

    David West: A 6 of 8 from the floor & 9 boards? Thatís once again efficiency in action. Also I noticed tonight more than any game this season that David West was imposing himself on the game in a physical fashion. In other words he was putting a hurt on Miami whenever he could. He one time hit Mario Chalmers hard in the chest to the point where Mario was rubbing his chest running down the floor in pain. He also closed the door on the Heat at the end of the game with that running one hander from the corner. He is always a rock for us when we need him.

    Roy Hibbert: A Why is Roy special? Well a lot of reasons really but the one thing you canít do to Roy that other teams often do to other big men is do the ďhack a RoyĒ. That only works when your big man canít hit a free throw, Roy on the other hand is shooting 78% from the stripe this season and is a respectable 73% shooter for his career. So there is no fouling Roy on purpose to get the ball back and in tonightís game they made the mistake of fouling him in the act of shooting giving him several attempts at 3 point plays. Other than that we all know that Miami really only has a limited chance of guarding Roy and for whatever reason they didnít use Haslem tonight so it makes it even tougher for them.

    Lance Stephenson: A- Good enough as he kept active and shot 50% from the field. His play to end the half was a brilliant play call from Frank for that to occur. That was the typical Vogel weave but it works so well because all three players (Hill, Stephenson & George) can all hit the shot either from the floor or can drive as Lance did on this. He also hit a three early in the 3rd to get our team really rolling and back on track. Also he was once again in full mouth mode tonight as LeBron was getting pretty upset with him in the third quarter, he really knows how to get under his skin which is always fun.

    George Hill: C Not really sure what went wrong here as I canít say he played a bad game but he didnít play a good game either. He only shot the ball 4 times which is probably not enough and I think he only played okay defense. Again C is kind of a neutral grade and IMO thatís kind of what Georgeís game was to me, neutral.

    C.J. Watson: B On the other hand I thought Watson was brilliant, in fact I really didnít like Frank taking him out at the end of the 4th. I really like the fact that he is now attacking the basket instead of being glued to the three point line. That always makes a player so much easier to guard if all they do is hang and wait for the kick out. That behind the back dribble to make Norris Cole the star of next weekís Shaqtin a fool was breath taking. The steal wasnít bad either.

    Luis Scola: B I think the one thing that is somewhat overlooked in Luis game is that he has actually been a very good rebounder this year. He grabbed 6 tonight to go along with his 7 points, neither of which is earth shattering but it was enough to allow David to grab a significant rest in the second half and be able to come back and pound the Heat. His ability to hit a face up Jumper I have a feeling will come up big for us against the Heat this year.

    Orlando Johnson: D Shooting slump, tried on defense which is a bonus but for whatever reason the past few games he has not been able to find the basket. We need scoring from our backup wing players so he really needs to step it up to help some more during the season so that way Paul & Lance donít have to play so many min. every single game.

    Ian Mahinmi: F- What went wrong here? He used to at least be able to help defend the paint but that now more often than not results in a foul. He has been a problem now for a few weeks and it scares the crap out of me whenever Roy goes to the bench. God I wish we would have kept a competent 3rd big man on the roster, we could have even kept Butler as well since you can have 15 players. I used to really like Ian but lately Iíve been scouring the D league roster trying to come up with someone/ anyone who can do some emergency min.

    Another strong win for our team in a season of strong wins. Next Wednesday will be interesting as Iím sure they wonít want to lose to us twice in a row, my hope is that we show them that it doesnít matter what they want.

    This is the kind of game that demands a rock anthem so I proudly present to you our German friends the Scorpions.




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    If for no other reason I think C.J. Watson is a nice get to just keep George Hill on his toes or at least make up for his lack of aggressiveness/bad nights. I think a night like this last year from George Hill would have spelled our doom against the Heat. Also, I heard from a few people that it was reported that the Heat were telling us as they were leaving "see you next week" I wonder if they know that Paul George plays better on the road sucks to be them that this can be considered a mediocre game from Mr. George. I just hope we lay it on thick against them in Miami and all the overtanned leathery twats in Miami get ticked off enough to give us the finger the way they did Noah last year. If they do I hope we just smile at them and thank them for coming to see us play.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    and all the overtanned leathery twats in Miami get ticked off enough to give us the finger the way they did Noah last year.
    I hear you man and I agree completely with you.


    Good write-up Peck as always. Good choice for the song as well. Scorpions one of my first loves from the Rock music stage. Klaus Meine needed a haircut though
    You **** up once, you lose two teeth

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Disagree about Ian solid B would be my grade, he was good IMO.


    How anyone could give him a F- is beyond me. Ian must of pissed in Peck's Wheaties.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Disagree about Ian solid B would be my grade, he was good IMO.


    How anyone could give him a F- is beyond me. Ian must of pissed in Peck's Wheaties.
    I would rather hear why you think he deserved a solid B, I think somewhere in between that is what I would say.

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    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Disagree about Ian solid B would be my grade, he was good IMO.


    How anyone could give him a F- is beyond me. Ian must of pissed in Peck's Wheaties.

    Agree. I think some should maybe review the 2nd qtr. ive seen Mahnimi do the following:

    Block to begin 2nd on birdman spurred fast break
    Offensive rebound on free throw miss and good pass out to OJ who missed a 3
    Couple nice rebounds.


    this is only midway through the second. he had some bad fouls but I can forgive that.

    F- for a guy making 4M is harsh. very harsh.

    I don't think mahinmi played significant in the 2nd half,,, but his 2qtr play was solid.

    he has cut back on the bone headed plays but its gonna happen. I like the block on birdman, coulple good boards, solid pass out,,, the fouls were bad. but who cares.

    the block out loose ball bobble foul was awful.


    at 4M,,,, I do think the team had jetlag or whatever it is with the WC trip. that 1st half was brutal for a lot of players. DWest bouncing the ball off Hibberts face. George Hill airballing a FT. Hill looked awful for a min. All the pacers players looked like they were still in WC time zone.

    I honestly felt we were lucky to be down only 7 at the half.




    What should we expect from a center at 4M salary in order for him to receive a "B" in a game like this? I guess I don't expect Ian to really give more than he did tonite.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    However that did not stop him from thrusting his head back as though he were struck in the face by a 2 x 4.
    I'm pretty sure you can hear Lance (or someone else) yell "He's faking" after this happened (didn't happen). Glad to see the refs figuring this out too.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I'm pretty sure you can hear Lance (or someone else) yell "He's faking" after this happened (didn't happen). Glad to see the refs figuring this out too.
    YES! That was hilarious and very audible. I can't even worry about LeBron's flop when you see Chalmers throwing himself on the ground like a small child.

    Great game though. I think the Pacers go as Lance goes, and vice versa, to a degree. Lance had the 3 point play, the three pointer, and a nice assist to West that all boosted our momentum in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Ian doesn't get any calls in his favor when he is out there. His demeanor is one of "ok I am here to deflect any bad calls from Roy so I am going to take this for the team". Ian is not a super star center but he is doing well in the capacity he has been given.

    I think Ian has alot left in reserve that he hasn't shown yet and is saving it for the playoffs. At least I hope thats what it is.

    Ian is the Pacers Rodney Dangerfield this year.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    great post, I really enjoyed reading it.

    What I liked most about pgs first half was that he didnt force anything. KObe bryant or or any other star for that matter wouldve kept shooting just to prove a point, I love the lack of egos on this team
    Impossible Is Nothing

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Roy had an A+ in my book ....Poor Ian. He did have a tough game. We probably need depth there. I don't believe Solomon Jones is any worse.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Roy A++
    Smothered Chicken!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Late in the 3rd Lebron was on George on the wing. He did a stupid ticky tack foul (which he was holding George through the screens all game). He called to Wade and told him to guard Paul. This only gave Paul more space. When Scola hit a pick and pop Lebron came in to guard Scola to stop that. Paul again had more space and was able to hit the post entry pass.

    The problem with the Heat is that Lebron cannot guard Roy to stop Royzilla from happening.

    Hill deserves a D. His defense was horrid. I counted three times that Chalmers blew past him to score. But we all can agree that OJ is not working out for us. He needs to average at least .8 3 pointers a game. And he is building a brick house. His defense is good.

    Ian wasn't an F -. He had an average first half. Good up till the point when he lost that rebound and he fouled the Turdman.

    I have a question. At what point will Wade break down? He has missed 3 of the last 4 and he was controlled by Lance and our interior direction.

    I heard someone on my TV say "He's faking" after Lebron got "hit". So will Lebron get fined? Someone needs to get the video montage of Lebron acting like a moron.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    the Turdman.


    I hope this sticks.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    The Heat have the best defense in the NBA outside the lane. Yes better than the Pacers.

    They trap and trap hard on all pick and rolls and they get tons of deflections when they do this. It took the Pacers until the second half to adjust to the Heat's trapping, pressure, quickness and speed on defense. But their approach gives the Pacers a lot of trouble. They also front the post pretty much all the time and that takes an adjustment as few teams play that style anymore.

    When we hold the ball like we did in the first half they get right into the player with the ball making it hard to move. In many ways the style the Heat play is more the style of defense played in the 90's and pre 2004. When they close out on the ball they get right into the offensive player, more than any team. And that gives us problems as it stops George Hill from starting our offense

    But if the Pacers can get the ball into the lane either off the dribble or in the post then we are good. I would love to know our score rate when we get the ball into the paint on the Heat vs when we don't. It has to be something like 80% vs 30%. (I realize that difference probably exists against all teams, but not nearly that big of a difference.

    People who know me know I am a defense first, second and third kind of guy. But I have said for the past 3 seasons or so that offense is the key to beaing the Heat. Get the ball inside and we are in great shape - but getting the ball inside on them is difficult, very difficult, especially for us. But our ability to do so IMO determines whether we beat them or not.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2013 at 09:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Heat have the best defense in the NBA outside the lane. Yes better than the Pacers.

    They trap and trap hard on all pick and rolls and they get tons of deflections when they do this. It took the Pacers until the second half to adjust to the Heat's trapping, pressure, quickness and speed on defense. But their approach gives the Pacers a lot of trouble. They also front the post pretty much all the time and that takes an adjustment as few teams play that style anymore.

    When we hold the ball like we did in the first half they get right into the player with the ball making it hard to move. In many ways the style the Heat play is more the style of defense played in the 90's and pre 2004. When they close out on the ball they get right into the offensive player, more than any team. And that gives us problems as it stops George Hill from starting our offense

    But if the Pacers can get the ball into the lane either off the dribble or in the post then we are good. I would love to know our score rate when we get the ball into the paint on the Heat vs when we don't. It has to be something like 80% vs 30%. (I realize that difference probably exists against all teams, but not nearly that big of a difference.

    People who know me know I am a defense first, second and third kind of guy. But I have said for the past 3 seasons or so that offense is the key to beaing the Heat. Get the ball inside and we are in great shape - but getting the ball inside on them is difficult, very difficult, especially for us. But our ability to do so IMO determines whether we beat them or not.
    I echo all of this, and I'll add that I think the defensive intensity Miami was displaying caught up with them because they looked more tired than the Pacers by the end. It comes at that price, and I think as long as we keep fighting back we can hang around as they get tired (or expand a lead if we're shooting well from outside).

    Additionally, the other weakness of trapping and double teams is that once the offense has a feel for it they will relax and make the right pass more often, which weakens it's effectiveness as well. We saw that in the second half, and I think in a playoff series they will have to keep tweaking their defense or else we will get too comfortable with it. That's one of the chess matches to come.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Heat have the best defense in the NBA outside the lane. Yes better than the Pacers.

    They trap and trap hard on all pick and rolls and they get tons of deflections when they do this. It took the Pacers until the second half to adjust to the Heat's trapping, pressure, quickness and speed on defense. But their approach gives the Pacers a lot of trouble. They also front the post pretty much all the time and that takes an adjustment as few teams play that style anymore.

    When we hold the ball like we did in the first half they get right into the player with the ball making it hard to move. In many ways the style the Heat play is more the style of defense played in the 90's and pre 2004. When they close out on the ball they get right into the offensive player, more than any team. And that gives us problems as it stops George Hill from starting our offense

    But if the Pacers can get the ball into the lane either off the dribble or in the post then we are good. I would love to know our score rate when we get the ball into the paint on the Heat vs when we don't. It has to be something like 80% vs 30%. (I realize that difference probably exists against all teams, but not nearly that big of a difference.

    People who know me know I am a defense first, second and third kind of guy. But I have said for the past 3 seasons or so that offense is the key to beaing the Heat. Get the ball inside and we are in great shape - but getting the ball inside on them is difficult, very difficult, especially for us. But our ability to do so IMO determines whether we beat them or not.

    I think it took too long for us to adjust. Paul kept curling and they kept trapping. The skip pass would have worked for a West jumper on a couple of possessions. Bosh can't play the gap on the baseline with Roy.

    I want to see the loop ran. We did it in the preseason but I think it has gone away. Putting Paul through multiple screens stops the trap and opens up the floor. The Spurs do this great. Even if Green or Parker are open the wait until the defense begins to respond. Leaving more cracks than a preschooler with a porcelain doll.

    I want Lance to get ahold of that shooting coach. He needs to revisit what he has learned. It is fine to work on it in the off season, but working on it when routines are busted can help.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I want Lance to get ahold of that shooting coach. He needs to revisit what he has learned. It is fine to work on it in the off season, but working on it when routines are busted can help.
    Can he invite Orlando to join them?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Peck, I don't think you mentioned the West incident that most impressed me—when he fouled Lebron really hard and intentionally at mid court to stop an emerging fast break.

    He ran into him forcefully and with no respect to the dictator. I don't think Lebron is used to that. I loved it. West sets a tone for us that is extremely important.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Peck, I don't think you mentioned the West incident that most impressed me—when he fouled Lebron really hard and intentionally at mid court to stop an emerging fast break.

    He ran into him forcefully and with no respect to the dictator. I don't think Lebron is used to that. I loved it. West sets a tone for us that is extremely important.
    The Heat radio people were up in arms this morning about how they think that should have been a flagrant foul.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The Heat radio people were up in arms this morning about how they think that should have been a flagrant foul.
    It was close. Really close. I wouldn't have complained too much if they had called it. The intent was successful.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The Heat radio people were up in arms this morning about how they think that should have been a flagrant foul.
    I thought it should have been too. I would not be surprised if the NBA upgrades it.

    Different topic: I don't remember the pacers ever running so many side pick and rolls. And it was pretty effective getting the ball into Roy. Seemed to work a lot better than our typical top of the key pick and rolls.

    it is amazing to have such a smart team, smart coaches and players who can adjust to what is going on within a game. That aspect reminds me of the late 90's team
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2013 at 09:25 AM.

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  38. #23
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    it is amazing to have such a smart team, smart coaches and players who can adjust to what is going on within a game. That aspect reminds me of the late 90's team
    I loved Vogel's quote a few weeks ago where he said the starting five has turned into "a bunch of math experts" or something along those lines. They are apparently really taking on the intellectual side of the game.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

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  40. #24
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The Heat radio people were up in arms this morning about how they think that should have been a flagrant foul.
    Got a video of it? I'd love to see a replay.
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  41. #25
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: disrespecting the champs....

    I have to disagree with some of the grades. West was good, but doesn't deserve an A. Way too many turnovers. Hill was a D, that was just a bad game from him. I think both Orlando and Mahinmi deserve C's. Orlando can't hit a shot from outside of 5 feet anymore, but he was playing very solid defense on Wade. Mahinmi was a little Jekyll and Hyde last night. He started well, but didn't end well. Overall it averaged out to a C for me.

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