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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Not difference at all if the Pacers were only playing 7 players you might have a point but they don't,
    They will, come playoff time, like they did last year. Which is exactly what my point is.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Yes if Danny can come back and be 70% of the player he used to be add him to atson and Scola and maybe a few spot minyutes here and there from a few others, I would put our bench up against any other bench in the playoffs.

    I'm not worried about the bench.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    V you brought up Portland's bench and I agree Mo Williams has helped them, but I look at their second team unit of Mo, Barton, Doreel Wright, T-Rob, and Freeland and then I look at our group of Watson, OJ, Hill, Scola, and Ian, and well I honestly think ours is better.

    The Watson-Scola PnR is a very effective play it needs to be run more than it is. I don't disagree that I'd love to add one more piece to the bench if possible, but like I said earlier if we can't find a way to make this group work then Frank and the rest of the coaches IMO are doing something wrong. I believe you should be able to lean on two good bench players like Scola and Watson
    I believe Scola and Watson can be way better but because they are playing with scrubs they are not able to reach their potential that is why I want the Pacers to upgrade the other bench players, again by "upgrade" I mean capable basketball players not all stars or anything like that.

    And maybe you are right about Portland but there is not doubt that unit is playing better that the Pacers bench unit(expecting stats to come up).

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They will, come playoff time, like they did last year. Which is exactly what my point is.
    They did it last year because their bench was garbage and they had not other choice, I mean who in their right mind is going to play DJ,Young,Green,Tyler, Ian and Pendergraph in the playoffs?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    They did it last year because their bench was garbage and they had not other choice, I mean who in their right mind is going to play DJ,Young,Green,Tyler, Ian and Pendergraph in the playoffs?
    Um, most teams go with a shortened bench rotation because they want to maximize the amount of time of their starters.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Um, most teams go with a shortened bench rotation because they want to maximize the amount of time of their starters.
    Miami and SA disagree with this, SA had multiple bench guys playing a lot of minutes on the playoffs, Manu, Neal, Splitter and Bonner, that is a pretty good 4 man rotation there. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2013.html

    And Miami had Mike Miller, Ray Allen, Battier, Haslem and Cole another pretty good 5 man unit and one of the reasons why they won another championship, they have Gerald Green instead of Ray Allen on the last minute of game 6 and SA is holding the trophy right now.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html


    edit: I'm going to post the link for the Pacers, only 2 bench players got more than 200 minutes(Tyler and DJ) Young got 130min, Ian 150 and Green 105 puke.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2013.html
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-09-2013 at 12:15 PM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Do I need to define the word "most?"
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Haslem started 19 of the 22 playoff games he played in last year for Miami.

    Also, the Heat rarely played a 5 man unit in the playoffs last year without Lebron, Lebron appears in 9 out of the 10 five man units the Heat rolled out in the playoffs last year. Expect PG to get similar treatment from the Pacers come playoff time. The Heat only played about 40 minutes of playoff basketball without Lebron last year. That is pretty crazy.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 12-09-2013 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Do I need to define the word "most?"
    I have the Pacers as contenders and I'm comparing them to contenders sure most of "pretenders" have a short rotation but that is not the case for "true contenders".


    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Haslem started 19 of the 22 playoff games he played in last year for Miami.
    I thought Birdman started thanks for the correction, OK replace Haslem with Birdman off the bench same thing.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I have the Pacers as contenders and I'm comparing them to contenders sure most of "pretenders" have a short rotation but that is not the case for "true contenders".
    Guess OKC isn't a true contender then, huh?

    http://newsok.com/thunder-scotty-bro...rticle/3773349

    Playoff basketball, Karl said, has a tendency to be “possession-oriented, and coaches don’t have the courage to try to get pace in the game.” Play uptempo, you have to use more players. Karl said most coaches want to get the best players on the court and rationalize that “possession basketball is OK.”
    Coaches want to slow the game down and use only their best players? Well, I'll be damned.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-09-2013 at 12:24 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Also the Heat used 3 lineups with only one starter in the playoffs last year.

    Allen, Birdman, Lebron, Cole, Battier (85 minutes)
    Allen, Birdman, Battier, Cole, Wade (40 Minutes)
    Allen, Birdman, Cole, Lebron, Miller (28 minutes) (And Miller started some playoff games for Miami last year)

    The Heat played 1,114 playoff minutes last year, and lineups with only one starter accounted for only 13% of the time. Lineups with 3 starters or more accounted for 87% of the time.

    Even further illustrating this point, Those lineups accounted for 961 of the 1114 playoff minutes from Miami

    So Miami was not really ever truly going 9 or 10 deep, they were just mixing and matching based on matchups and leaning very heavily on their starters, particularly Lebron.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../2013/lineups/
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 12-09-2013 at 12:42 PM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They will, come playoff time, like they did last year. Which is exactly what my point is.
    Actually we will be playing 9, just like last season. The shortened bench thing is a bit of a myth. Teams play their bench players less, you might drop one player out of the rotation, but most teams still play 9 players in most games.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Actually we will be playing 9, just like last season. The shortened bench thing is a bit of a myth. Teams play their bench players less, you might drop one player out of the rotation, but most teams still play 9 players in most games.
    Which is the very definition of shortening a bench rotation.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Guess OKC isn't a true contender then, huh?
    Yes they are not only because of Durant and Westbrook but because their bench unit is pretty good (Jackson, Nick, Jackson,Lamb,Fishers and Adams) more than 2 good players.



    Coaches want to slow the game down and use only their best players? Well, I'll be damned.
    Actually that article you posted makes my point they are talking about Brooks having Durant together with 4 bench players the Pacers don't have 4 good bench players they only have 2, and Karl is saying that "players eliminate themselves" meaning that if a player sucks he is out of the rotation, if a player plays well there is not need to shorten the rotation.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Genuine question, have we played a lineup featuring PG and 4 bench players? If yes, how have they done? I can't find on bball reference, but this would be similar to what Miami does in the playoffs with Lebron.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Actually that article you posted makes my point they are talking about Brooks having Durant together with 4 bench players the Pacers don't have 4 good bench players they only have 2, and Karl is saying that "players eliminate themselves" meaning that if a player sucks he is out of the rotation, if a player plays well there is not need to shorten the rotation.
    Yeah, an article talking specifically about OKC shortening their bench rotation proves your point that good teams don't short their bench rotations. Never change V, never change.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Genuine question, have we played a lineup featuring PG and 4 bench players? If yes, how have they done? I can't find on bball reference, but this would be similar to what Miami does in the playoffs with Lebron.
    82games.com for that stuff. No, they've never played 4 bench players with just PG. I looked them over, and there are 3 lineups that have been used with just one starter (Lance all three times is that starter) and there is one lineup of just bench players. (Out of 20) Lance with 4 bench players have played together a grand total of 50 mins, only bench players 7 minutes total.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    IMO, the biggest need on our bench is another big that's capable. Mahimi is just playing so bad right now. Late on rotations, can't rebound, isn't protecting the rim, fouls way too easily, and he missed like 3 shots point blank yesterday. He's really providing nothing at this point.

    Chris Copeland, Ian Mahimi, and something else(Solomon Hill? Draft Picks?) for a guy like Omar Asik would be nice. He'd be affordable this year easily, next year his salary escalates big time to 14.8M so, this would guarantee one of Stephenson or Granger is gone, but I figured as much anyway. Copeland's will be $3.1M next year and Mahimi at $4M, so we'd probably need to clear a little bit more cash next season, but Asik is an elite defensive/rebounding Center and could play significant minutes if Hibbert got into foul trouble.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    82games.com for that stuff. No, they've never played 4 bench players with just PG. I looked them over, and there are 3 lineups that have been used with just one starter (Lance all three times is that starter) and there is one lineup of just bench players. (Out of 20) Lance with 4 bench players have played together a grand total of 50 mins, only bench players 7 minutes total.
    So yeah, simple idea for playoffs, only play 4 bench players with Paul....profit.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, an article talking specifically about OKC shortening their bench rotation proves your point that good teams don't short their bench rotations. Never change V, never change.
    Replacing ONE bench player with an starter in the 4th quarter is "shortening their bench rotation" yeah that makes sense ...


    From the article:
    But when the fourth quarter arrived, Brooks declined to do what he has been doing the last five-six weeks. He did not put in the entire B team. Kevin Durant played in Cook’s stead.
    If you think that means shortening the rotation I don't know what to tell you and we should just stop with the conversation
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-09-2013 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by sopgy View Post
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    What's funny is I actually logged in here to suggest that until Granger comes back, Rasual Butler should be logging more minutes. He's an NBA veteran who has actual experience that would help this team. He also spaces the floor very well and is a great catch and shoot player.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Replacing ONE bench player with an starter in the 4th quarter is "shortening their bench rotation" yeah that makes sense ...
    YES! It's shortening it. Whether it's replacing ONE bench player with a starter or replacing TWO bench players, you're shortening the amount of time the bench player is on the floor, thus "shortening" their rotation. Go find me a definition of the word "shorten" that tries to differentiate between shortening just a bit and a lot.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    The Pacers will swap DJ's playoff minutes for CJ's and Tyler's for Luis'. If Danny isn't back, they'll just use the same rotation as last year. That rotation, got them to game 7 against the Heat. They upgrade their two worst positions, while upgrading their star. Do we honestly think those upgrades are just barely minimal and won't have any significant impact? No way.

    Having a 8-9 player rotation in the playoffs would be nice, but it's not necessary.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Which is the very definition of shortening a bench rotation.
    Maybe, but when I read shortening bench rotation I think people are talking about how many players play. A lot of people have this idea that teams in the playoffs only play 7 or 8 players, and that is all. Which just isn't very true at all. Some teams might, but most play at least 9 if not 10 players. The only difference is the 9th/10th player gets 8 minutes in the playoffs instead of 14 minutes in the regular season.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers will swap DJ's playoff minutes for CJ's and Tyler's for Luis'. If Danny isn't back, they'll just use the same rotation as last year. That rotation, got them to game 7 against the Heat. They upgrade their two worst positions, while upgrading their star. Do we honestly think those upgrades are just barely minimal and won't have any significant impact? No way.

    Having a 8-9 player rotation in the playoffs would be nice, but it's not necessary.
    Yeah, I tend to agree. I think the bench is much more important in the pursuit of attaining the #1 seed than it is in the playoffs. That's not to say the bench isn't important in the second season, but our starting five is so dominant that we basically just need the bench not to **** their pants on the court and we will be in good shape.

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