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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

  1. #51

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I'm fine with the bench if Ian can be Rim Protector Ian (nothing special, but does his job and doesn't let other team have it easy with Hibbert out) and between Lance/Scola, someone can provide some offense.

    I saw Rim Protector Ian to start the season. He has been missing for a few weeks now, though.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    someone take OJ's jumper to Church. needs divine intervention.



    * looks like OJ changed his jumper over the offseason.. kicking his leg out.. almost looks awkward.
    OJ's form looks so bad that I don't thing he'll ever be a consistent 3pt shooter. JMO

    Sure hope Danny can take those minutes pretty soon.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Even if Danny doesn't come back, the bench is fine. Vogel is smart enough to learn his lesson last postseason about how to play the bench rotation, so this is a regular season problem, even if you think it's a problem. 1-7 their as solid as any team in the league, and even as bad as Ian has been, him being 8 isn't that big of a deal. We'll start seeing more and more Scola\West together. Way too damn good.

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  5. #54

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Even if Danny doesn't come back, the bench is fine. Vogel is smart enough to learn his lesson last postseason about how to play the bench rotation, so this is a regular season problem, even if you think it's a problem. 1-7 their as solid as any team in the league, and even as bad as Ian has been, him being 8 isn't that big of a deal. We'll start seeing more and more Scola\West together. Way too damn good.

    Let's sit back and enjoy the ride, and not try to find nits to pick at.
    Yep. I'm not gonna spend time worrying about the 8th-12th guys on a team winning 90% of its games.


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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Getting Granger back will certainly help, and I remain hopeful that Copeland will eventually be a consistent contributor for our second unit.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Shade is right other than Scola and Watson we don't have anything else and please don't tell me that DG is going to be healthy I don't want to hear it enough already.

    It looks to me like some don't understand what Shade is talking about and are acting like he is trashing the team but he is not, he is right we need one or two more pieces off the bench and nope I'm not saying that is easy to accomplish it either, I have never been a huge Larry fan but I have some hope that he is going to fix it, hopefully he finds a way to package Cope, Ian and some of the young players, by the way what a huge mistake was not to get Hardaway instead of Hill? damn that was a bad mistake.

  8. #57

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    When Danny comes back we just need a better back up center. Also didn't the Knicks draft before us last Summer? We had a better record right?

  9. #58
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBuck
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    I wonder if our bench doesn't seem that good just because our starters are incredibly good. Just a thought.

    and I don't put any weight in what took place in the last 5 minutes of the game tonight
    Tonight may not be any indication….but there are plenty of games where I get the sense that Vogel plays the Starting 5 A LOT MORE than he has to because the Bench isn't doing a good enough job of simply keeping the opposing Team "at bay". The Bench IMHO is a total "hit or miss" when it comes to their ability to defend and score. Unfortunately, there are games where CJ and Scola are doing everything that you'd expect them to do as "quality" 1st PG or Big Man off the bench and you can see why Bird made moves to acquire them ( I have very low expectations of OJ and Solo, so I expect them to be mediocre at best and hope that they simply tow the line ). Then there are nights where they are doing so bad that you know that Vogel is subbing them out just to stop the bleeding. I'm not saying that we have a horrific Bench…..….but they aren't ( for some reason ) consistent as we want them to be and therefore as effective as they will need to be.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-08-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    When Danny comes back we just need a better back up center. Also didn't the Knicks draft before us last Summer? We had a better record right?
    If they did it was because of a trade. If we had a better record we would have been the number 2 seed not number 3.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Tonight may not be any indication….but there are plenty of games where I get the sense that Vogel plays the Starting 5 A LOT MORE than he has to because the Bench isn't doing a good enough job of simply keeping the opposing Team "at bay". The Bench IMHO is a total "hit or miss" when it comes to their ability to defend and score. Unfortunately, there are games where CJ and Scola are doing everything that you'd expect them to do as "quality" 1st PG or Big Man off the bench and you can see why Bird made moves to acquire them ( I have very low expectations of OJ and Solo, so I expect them to be mediocre at best and hope that they simply tow the line ). Then there are nights where they are doing so bad that you know that Vogel is subbing them out just to stop the bleeding. I'm not saying that we have a horrific Bench…..….but they aren't ( for some reason ) consistent as we need them to be and therefore as effective as they will need to be.
    The only consistent benches are benches that never play as a 5(4) man unit, and in the off case that they do it is usually for a very short period of time.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Gill View Post
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    Yep. I'm not gonna spend time worrying about the 8th-12th guys on a team winning 90% of its games.


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    I think about everyone here agrees that this team will win 60+ games and basically be an automatic shoe-in for the ECF's against Miami. But if we want to overcome a Jordan-esque Lebron in the Conference Finals and beat a Western Conference opponent in the Finals, then everything is going to have to be as close to perfect as possible. Every little thing matters when you're going up against the best of the best, and right now this team doesn't have a good backup wing. You can't count on Orlando Johnson and rookie Solo. We can all hope that Granger comes back soon and gives us a boost in that department, but if it doesn't happen then this will be a weakness.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I think about everyone here agrees that this team will win 60+ games and basically be an automatic shoe-in for the ECF's against Miami. But if we want to overcome a Jordan-esque Lebron in the Conference Finals and beat a Western Conference opponent in the Finals, then everything is going to have to be as close to perfect as possible. Every little thing matters when you're going up against the best of the best, and right now this team doesn't have a good backup wing. You can't count on Orlando Johnson and rookie Solo. We can all hope that Granger comes back soon and gives us a boost in that department, but if it doesn't happen then this will be a weakness.
    If it's still an issue by the trade deadline, I could see the team making a move. Right now, we just need to see what we have though.

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  16. #63

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Right now, the bench is Mahimi and CJ Watson.
    We are still a serviceable wing away from a solid 8-man rotation which is basically a necessity for playoff.

    Yes, hope Danny become healthy, and be the final piece completing our playoff 8-man rotation.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    OJ is being played cause of his defense, he needs to chill on offense and fix that broken stroke of his before it takes him out of the league. It's a shame we have to play Oj, but that's what it says about the rest of the bench.

    This bench is a huge upgrade from recent years and I'll live with it for now. But, we need Danny back healthy to have a solid bench. Scola, Danny and CJ is a heck of an 8 man rotation come playoff time.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I think about everyone here agrees that this team will win 60+ games and basically be an automatic shoe-in for the ECF's against Miami. But if we want to overcome a Jordan-esque Lebron in the Conference Finals and beat a Western Conference opponent in the Finals, then everything is going to have to be as close to perfect as possible. Every little thing matters when you're going up against the best of the best, and right now this team doesn't have a good backup wing. You can't count on Orlando Johnson and rookie Solo. We can all hope that Granger comes back soon and gives us a boost in that department, but if it doesn't happen then this will be a weakness.
    OJ and Solo aren't going to be the reasons the Pacers lose to the Heat. If a team has to field 10 players that fully contribute to beat the Heat, then LeBron's not 3, not 4 prediction is going to ring true.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    OJ and Solo aren't going to be the reasons the Pacers lose to the Heat. If a team has to field 10 players that fully contribute to beat the Heat, then LeBron's not 3, not 4 prediction is going to ring true.
    I'm saying they need 8 to fully contribute. The 5 starters plus 3 good bench players (a big, a pg, and a wing). Right now we have a good big man and a good backup pg off the bench. We don't have a good wing. If Danny comes back and consistently contributes, then problem solved. If not, then it's still a noticeable weakness.

    It's not that Tyler Hansbrough himself was the reason we lost to the Heat last year, it's that we didn't have a better big guy off the bench. Problem solved this year in that department, as well as backup pg. A better wing off of the bench would make the Pacers a better team. Isn't that why everyone is hoping Granger comes back soon?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    OJ and Solo aren't going to be the reasons the Pacers lose to the Heat. If a team has to field 10 players that fully contribute to beat the Heat, then LeBron's not 3, not 4 prediction is going to ring true.
    You should tell SA and OKC that their plan is not working then, there is also not coincidence that Portland got way better as soon as they fixed their bench issues(Mo has been huge for then)

    The Pacers wouldn't be 18 and 3 if it wasn't for CJ Watson and Scola, so yeah benches are important, specially with a team like the Pacers that are aiming for 1st place.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Just throwing ideas out there, but with OJ struggling and Sloan doing well in his limited minutes, I wonder if Vogel would ever consider a backcourt of Sloan at the 1 and CJ at the 2? Kind of a smaller, quicker/up-tempo lineup for a few minutes. If we continued with the current rotations that would leave Lance at the 3, Scola at the 4 and Mahinmi at the 5 for a few minutes.

    Obviously we couldn't play that lineup for longer than a few minutes per game, but we are getting NOTHING from OJ, Hill and Cope at this point.

    Note: we are 18-3 so this may be nitpicking, but nothing wrong with trying new ideas early in the season in order to shore up a weakness on our team.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You should tell SA and OKC that their plan is not working then, there is also not coincidence that Portland got way better as soon as they fixed their bench issues(Mo has been huge for then)

    The Pacers wouldn't be 18 and 3 if it wasn't for CJ Watson and Scola, so yeah benches are important, specially with a team like the Pacers that are aiming for 1st place.
    I'm talking about the 9th and 10th players, you're talking about the 6th and 7th players. See the difference?
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm saying they need 8 to fully contribute. The 5 starters plus 3 good bench players (a big, a pg, and a wing). Right now we have a good big man and a good backup pg off the bench. We don't have a good wing. If Danny comes back and consistently contributes, then problem solved. If not, then it's still a noticeable weakness.

    It's not that Tyler Hansbrough himself was the reason we lost to the Heat last year, it's that we didn't have a better big guy off the bench. Problem solved this year in that department, as well as backup pg. A better wing off of the bench would make the Pacers a better team. Isn't that why everyone is hoping Granger comes back soon?
    They took Miami to 7 games last year with no bench. Sure, having 8 or even 10 would make them better, but it's not necessarily a requirement.

    EDIT: Just pretty hard to understand how the play of either OJ or Solo is going to make or break them against Miami. Sure, getting a few good minutes out of them would be nice, but if you have to depend on it, you're in trouble.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-09-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They took Miami to 7 games last year with no bench. Sure, having 8 or even 10 would make them better, but it's not necessarily a requirement.

    EDIT: Just pretty hard to understand how the play of either OJ or Solo is going to make or break them against Miami. Sure, getting a few good minutes out of them would be nice, but if you have to depend on it, you're in trouble.
    It's not that OJ or Solo themselves will screw us, it's that having a better wing option off the bench would give us a better shot. This is why everyone wants Danny to come back and play reasonably good basketball at a consistent level. A better bench wing makes the Pacers a better team. The better the Pacers are, the better chance they have at winning a championsihp.

    You can't blame last year's elimination on Hansbrough and Augistin because those two guys were what they were all season, and expecting them to magically morph into something better in the postseason would have been a pipe dream (DJ did give us a couple of good games at least). It's not that those two guys screwed us as much as it is that having better options in Scola and Watson will give us a much better chance at getting the 1 seed and beating Miami.

    We took Miami to 7, which was great, but we didn't beat them. That's why Bird came back and immediately improved the bench. This team still had to get better. Also, it's not just Miami that you have to worry about. If we get past them, then we will have to face a brutally difficult Western Conference opponent. To win an NBA Title, you have to be near perfect. I'd say our starting unit is about as perfect as it could possibly get, and I think that we have 2/3 necessary bench components. We have a strong backup big man and a strong backup point guard, but we don't have a strong backup wing. If a strong backup wing is added to this roster, then it's basically as perfect of a team as possible.

    I'm not complaining. I love this roster and have been completely on board with everything that has happened over the last 5 seasons. But having a roster of this talent is a rare opportunity, and I just want to get the absolute most out of it.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-09-2013 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm talking about the 9th and 10th players, you're talking about the 6th and 7th players. See the difference?
    Not difference at all if the Pacers were only playing 7 players you might have a point but they don't, note the title of the thread "THE BENCH" meaning that is a whole unit not just one player or two, the question is "HOW TO FIX THE BENCH" not how much do you need OJ and Hill to win a title that has never been the question.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    V you brought up Portland's bench and I agree Mo Williams has helped them, but I look at their second team unit of Mo, Barton, Doreel Wright, T-Rob, and Freeland and then I look at our group of Watson, OJ, Hill, Scola, and Ian, and well I honestly think ours is better.

    The Watson-Scola PnR is a very effective play it needs to be run more than it is. I don't disagree that I'd love to add one more piece to the bench if possible, but like I said earlier if we can't find a way to make this group work then Frank and the rest of the coaches IMO are doing something wrong. I believe you should be able to lean on two good bench players like Scola and Watson

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Just throwing ideas out there, but with OJ struggling and Sloan doing well in his limited minutes, I wonder if Vogel would ever consider a backcourt of Sloan at the 1 and CJ at the 2? Kind of a smaller, quicker/up-tempo lineup for a few minutes. If we continued with the current rotations that would leave Lance at the 3, Scola at the 4 and Mahinmi at the 5 for a few minutes.

    Obviously we couldn't play that lineup for longer than a few minutes per game, but we are getting NOTHING from OJ, Hill and Cope at this point.

    Note: we are 18-3 so this may be nitpicking, but nothing wrong with trying new ideas early in the season in order to shore up a weakness on our team.
    I like the idea, but we won't beat Miami if we have to rely on Sloan. I like him, but there is a reason he is a 3rd string PG
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    It's a shame Danny can't play because a veteran presence is exactly what we need off the bench. OJ and Solo are projects, and cannot be expected to be consistent.
    David "And One" West

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