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The bench still isn't good enough

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  • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
    Good Stuff
    First of all, I appreciate this. This is what I'm talking about. This is valuable stuff.

    Second, Mahinmi's little foul party in the second quarter was fine. The first foul was fine (he got caught hedging too hard), but the other two were really bad.

    You mentioned the Birdman And-1. Here is the play:

    http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=361

    Watson falls asleep on the inbounds pass and allows Cole to go baseline. Mahinmi picks him up and forces the pass. He spins while the pass is in the air and can't get out of the restricted area or square his shoulders over his feet in time. Birdman gets the bucket and the foul.

    How would you asses Ian's defense in the play? Should he have done something differently?
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    • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

      Originally posted by FlavaDave;1750121[/QUOTE
      How would you asses Ian's defense in the play? Should he have done something differently?
      Hey thanks for the video I didn't know you could get those.

      On the play I think Ian is overplaying Cole there is not need for him to almost block Watson, as soon as he did that the defense got out of position and the AND1 happened, Ian kind of reminds me of David Harrison his excitement a lot of times when on his way.
      @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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      • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

        Sorry apparently an acronym of WTF is a offensive on these boards. But really, if you think Mahimi contributed anything positive yesterday then you're just never going to find fault with anything he does, because that was one of the worst 11 minutes anyone has played on this team so far this year. The announcers took notice and mentioned how poorly he was playing, people on these boards commented on this and other threads as soon as he went to the bench about how poor he was.

        But, because three point shooters and mid-range shots started missing that he had no effect on "man, his defense really was awesome, look at their shooting %!!!" Be real, he was bad last night.
        Dear P_George,
        You have received an infraction at Pacers Digest.

        Reason: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content

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        • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

          I just know that I love getting on PD in the morning after a big win to read posts *****ing about the backup center. In years past, the Pacers would get a big win and we'd have people going overboard with excitement, now it's ho-hum let's look for small criticisms and blow them up.
          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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          • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

            Originally posted by P_George View Post
            But, because three point shooters and mid-range shots started missing that he had no effect on "man, his defense really was awesome, look at their shooting %!!!" Be real, he was bad last night.
            Really? WHO said he was "awesome"? In fact the very post you seem to be referring to specifically stated it said nothing about how Ian did individually, just that it wasn't as much of a problem for the team as people seem to be thinking.

            There is a lot of area between "sucks and should never see the floor" and "is awesome a #1 center in the league", and some of that includes things like "below average", "ok in some areas and horrible in others", and "not the worst". It grinds my gears that anyone trying to make a reasonable assessment gets accused of being a jocker or hater, like the only opinions allowed are that someone is the best or that they are the worst.

            Can we please stop labeling people with differing opinions as blind idiots or extrapolating a "wait, this part wasn't so bad" into "OMFG HE'S AMAZING I WANT TO HAVE HIS BABIES"?

            I mean, really, the part of the discussion between vnzla81 and FlavaDave is the ABSOLUTE RIGHT WAY TO DO THIS. Example and counter example without anyone (so far) calling anyone names.
            BillS

            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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            • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

              Originally posted by P_George View Post
              Sorry apparently an acronym of WTF is a offensive on these boards.
              And, to be clear, the part of the post that was admin edited wasn't because of WTF, it was because of "what game did you watch". The new guidelines are being posted soon, and part of what will be cracked down on is the implications that someone isn't intelligent or didn't watch the game (or watch the game "properly"), especially when standalone without anything to indicate WHAT a poster thinks might have been missed.

              Not everyone sees the same things in a game, and there's also a huge difference between live/broadcast/DVR with constant rewind. Calling someone out like they didn't have a basis for their opinion is going to have to stop because it shows a marked disrespect for posters.

              And that's all there will be to this in this thread (it's only here to make an explanation of a specific move). Please take any response to the feedback forum.
              BillS

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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              • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                Hey thanks for the video I didn't know you could get those.

                On the play I think Ian is overplaying Cole there is not need for him to almost block Watson, as soon as he did that the defense got out of position and the AND1 happened, Ian kind of reminds me of David Harrison his excitement a lot of times when on his way.
                First, I put "asses" instead of "assess". Guess PD doesn't filter that out. Huh.

                Second, on that play I would say Watson made a big mistake, letting Cole get past him clean without a screen. I would say Ian had no choice but to cut Cole off, and did his best to try and contain Birdman as well. This difference in opinion might partially explain our different assessments of his defensive abilities.

                Now, offensively Ian is a flaming pile of garbage. No argument here. I also don't think Mahinmi had an outstanding game.

                But his rim defense was a (big) factor in this game. I think that this rim defense in this game could be replicated with (off your list) Varejao, Splitter, JO, Asik, or Collison. Not sure how realistic those guys are for trade targets/free agents 4 mil per.

                But replacements aside, I think a "solid offense, solid rebounding, average-to-weak" defensive big would a) put up a better stat line, b) make fewer "drop the rebound off the free throw miss & foul" epic blunders that Ian made in this game, and c) would be a net negative vs. the Heat because of Miami's ability to get to the rim (and this strawman's inability to defend the rim at the level of Mahinmi).
                Last edited by FlavaDave; 12-11-2013, 01:01 PM.
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                • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                  Originally posted by BillS View Post
                  Really? WHO said he was "awesome"? In fact the very post you seem to be referring to specifically stated it said nothing about how Ian did individually, just that it wasn't as much of a problem for the team as people seem to be thinking.

                  There is a lot of area between "sucks and should never see the floor" and "is awesome a #1 center in the league", and some of that includes things like "below average", "ok in some areas and horrible in others", and "not the worst". It grinds my gears that anyone trying to make a reasonable assessment gets accused of being a jocker or hater, like the only opinions allowed are that someone is the best or that they are the worst.

                  Can we please stop labeling people with differing opinions as blind idiots or extrapolating a "wait, this part wasn't so bad" into "OMFG HE'S AMAZING I WANT TO HAVE HIS BABIES"?

                  I mean, really, the part of the discussion between vnzla81 and FlavaDave is the ABSOLUTE RIGHT WAY TO DO THIS. Example and counter example without anyone (so far) calling anyone names.
                  The irony in your post is amazing. You're trying to act like we're overreacting to another poor performance by Mahimi when in reality, you're overreacting to the discussion at hand. From what I've read, no one has called anyone an idiot. Questioning someone's interpretation of a game they watched when Person A says Player A played a good game(particularly defensively) and the vast majority of people that saw Player A said that he stunk up the joint, defense included. How's that offensive to question what game he watched? I'd love to know how he came to the conclusion that Player A did anything well, because shooting %'s dropped when he was in? That's a poor argument at best.

                  And the person I quoted originally specifically said, "We must look for different things in Centers. Ian was really good tonight IMO his defense was huge." Sorry, that is not referencing a "team" thing that's referencing Mahimi specifically. Would you argue that Mahimi was good defensively, or "huge" defensively(his words)? That comment is baffling to me.
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                  You have received an infraction at Pacers Digest.

                  Reason: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content

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                  • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                    Has anybody taken a look around the league at other current backup Centers? I can see where the general consensus would be Ian isn't in the Top 5, but he's certainly in the Top 10. It would be nice to have the money for Asik or Hakeem in his prime coming off the bench, but unfortunately for us all of our money is tied up in the best starting unit around. Wait... is that unfortunate?

                    When you have George Hill, Lance Stephenson, Paul George, David West, Roy Hibbert, Danny Granger, and Luis Scola in a small market... you can't really supplement them with Mike Conley, Kevin Martin, and Marc Gasol off the bench. In my opinion, if a backup center who only needs to give us 15-17 minutes a game is our biggest problem, we must be doing something right.

                    Larry Bird.

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                    • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                      I think it comes down to expectations. I don't expect Ian to be as good as Roy, so when he isn't as good as Roy I am not disappointed. There is a reason why Ian is a backup and not a starter. So I don't expect him to produce like a starter, and don't get upset when he doesn't produce like a starter.
                      Last edited by Eleazar; 12-11-2013, 01:55 PM.

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                      • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                        Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
                        I think it comes down to expectations. I don't expect Ian to be as good as Roy, so when he isn't as good as Roy I am not disappointed.
                        I don't think anybody expects that, at all.

                        We expect more then 2.5PPG(35% shooting), 2.8 RPG, .9 BPG, 1.0 TOPG, 2.7 FPG in 15.0 MPG.

                        These are the numbers that are scary. 15MPG is pretty high for a back-up big. The fact he's shooting so poorly, turning it over, and fouling at such an incredibly high rate in those 15 minutes is scary. When you continue to factor in that he's regressing defensively the last several games, what's the justification for keeping him? No better options? I'd contest that all day. There's a lot of better(IMO) back-up bigs that aren't on huge prices tags.

                        FWIW - his PER36 are scary bad. He's being completely inefficient this year.
                        Dear P_George,
                        You have received an infraction at Pacers Digest.

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                        • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                          How would you asses Ian's defense in the play? Should he have done something differently?
                          Hey thanks for the video I didn't know you could get those.

                          On the play I think Ian is overplaying Cole there is not need for him to almost block Watson, as soon as he did that the defense got out of position and the AND1 happened, Ian kind of reminds me of David Harrison his excitement a lot of times when on his way.[/QUOTE]


                          This was part of the system. If a defender is incapable of keeping the player out of the paint, the paint will be protected by a rotating big. If anything the second rotation was not there. I am not suggesting leaving Ray Allen open (which I believe this was the intent of the play). Both Paul George and West we too tight on their man. It was a broken assignment and a blown assignment. I don't fault Ian as much as you. And I am willing to bet that when the team saw the film they weren't tearing Ian a new one.

                          The defensive rotations are off when the bench comes in. Most teams are not exploiting it, but good teams are. THe Thunder and Spurs did it to us time and time again. Ian's fouls are not all because Ian is trash. It is because we are lacking the chemistry. I suspect his fouls will go down. Ian is a good screener and a above average rebounder. He had a decent first half:
                          http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=121
                          http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=153

                          The second half was horrid for Ian on the offensive end. In fact that is the biggest complaint I have on him. He is missing shots and FTs. He does turnover the ball too frequently. And if he had not been called for that stupid foul on Wade and had not sent Turdman for an AND1 he would have given us what we needed. That is why I don't think he was useless.

                          Offensively we need OJ to hit the three more than Ian to not turn the ball over.

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                          • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                            Originally posted by FlavaDave View Post
                            First, I put "asses" instead of "assess". Guess PD doesn't filter that out. Huh.

                            Second, on that play I would say Watson made a big mistake, letting Cole get past him clean without a screen. I would say Ian had no choice but to cut Cole off, and did his best to try and contain Birdman as well. This difference in opinion might partially explain our different assessments of his defensive abilities.

                            Now, offensively Ian is a flaming pile of garbage. No argument here. I also don't think Mahinmi had a particularly good game.

                            But his rim defense was a factor in this game. I think that this rim defense in this game could be replicated with (off your list) Varejao, Splitter, JO, Asik, or Collison. Not sure how realistic those guys are for trade targets/free agents 4 mil per.

                            But replacements aside, I think a "solid offense, solid rebounding, average-to-weak" defensive big would a) put up a better stat line, b) make fewer "drop the rebound off the free throw miss & foul" epic blunders that Ian made in this game, and c) would be a net negative vs. the Heat because of Miami's ability to get to the rim (and this strawman's inability to defend the rim at the level of Mahinmi).
                            I think the "rim protector" term around here is a bit overrated, you can be a "rim protector" without been able to jump on a phone book, there are many ways to protect the rim without jumping, to me Varejao comes to mind he protects the rim by taking charges and staying in the right position, Reggie Evan is also good at this, again just because somebody is able to jump really high and is 7 feet tall doesn't mean that person is a so call "rim protector".

                            By the way I've been saying forever that I don't mind Ian as the 3rd center of my team at less than 2mil a year but as the immediate backup to Roy? meh.
                            @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                            • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                              Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                              By the way I've been saying forever that I don't mind Ian as the 3rd center of my team at less than 2mil a year but as the immediate backup to Roy? meh.
                              Hmm. I'd predict that if we were paying Ian $1.9M to sit on the bench as the emergency big guy you'd probably still think that was too much, but that's because I know you place a lot of emphasis on what someone makes compared to their contribution. It would be worse because if he had a couple of bad games with teeny-tiny minutes he'd look even worse than he is.
                              BillS

                              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                              • Re: The bench still isn't good enough

                                Why all the talk about salary? That toothpaste is already out of the tube, you can't unring that bell. He is getting paid what he is getting paid. He is a guaranteed contract. Just look at him as our backup center. If he can be replaced by a better player, then we will do that. If he can't, then he will be our guy in May and June. To say that he is getting paid x amount of dollars so he should be doing this, this, and this, is a pointless idea at this point of the season.

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