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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

  1. #301
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by 31Since1990 View Post
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    But why not move Danny at the 2 and Cope at the 3?

    Cj/Danny/Cope/Scola/Ian is so solid
    Because Danny can hardly guard SF, let alone SG which is normally a smaller and quicker guy. Danny's better at guarding bigger wings that normally play SF.

    As for Copeland guarding the wing, I think that's a mistake too. He's simply not quick enough on defense to guard a wing. That's why he isn't playing and Solomon Hill is playing.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    The amount we spend talking about guys who only play in garbage time boggles my mind. Seriously, we are 20-3 and we are concerned that Copeland isnt good enough. Who the **** cares?
    Yes, he's only played garbage minutes but garbage minutes are not why he was acquired. In fact, it's possible he could be important if he gets his act together and Danny Granger finds he cannot play. So, it does matter if Copeland is a good player. Also, Copeland is relevant because his contract impacts us re-signing key players and if he indeed begins shooting the 3 with some accuracy he will be a weapon...as well as a tradeable asset.

    Also, as long as we are getting spanked by the likes of Portland and OKC, I think all the players are important and ripe for discussion.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    He was brought in to be more important before Scola came to town. That changed things. And sure if Danny can't play, we might have to use Copeland more. But so far that still isnt the case. He is viewed as a 4 as well. Not a 3. If Danny can't play, we find someone who can.

    And we didnt get spanked by Portland. We nearly won that game. Let's play them and OKC at our place before we go worrying about Copeland not being good enough for us to beat those teams...

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    The amount we spend talking about guys who only play in garbage time boggles my mind. Seriously, we are 20-3 and we are concerned that Copeland isnt good enough. Who the **** cares?
    I'm pretty sure the Pacers and specially Larry care, trying to downplay a horrible mistake is nice and all but is not going to work, the Pacers made a mistake by signing the scrub and that is the cold hard true.

    20 and 3 is great but Larry on his interview yesterday said that he was looking at other teams players meaning that he is willing to move some players if they don't help the team, so sure go ahead and tell Larry who the **** cares? to see what he is going to respond.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    No, signing Copeland was not a horrible mistake. He doesnt make enough money for that to be considered a horrible mistake. Signing Nene to a huge contract, that was a horrible mistake.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Larry said he would like to make another move, depending on what we get from Danny. And he didnt say we have to make a move. He Would like to. But every gm in the league would say that. This team, as is, can absolutely win the title. With Copeland sitting on the bench.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    No, signing Copeland was not a horrible mistake. He doesnt make enough money for that to be considered a horrible mistake. Signing Nene to a huge contract, that was a horrible mistake.
    Nene was not a mistake because he was never signed but sure go ahead and call it a mistake for some reason lol

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I didnt mean it was a mistake by the Pacers, thats kinda obvious. The contract Nene was signed to with the Nuggets was a horrible mistake. It was just an example.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    The amount we spend talking about guys who only play in garbage time boggles my mind. Seriously, we are 20-3 and we are concerned that Copeland isnt good enough. Who the **** cares?
    I care.

    The type of season we're having doesn't come along very often. And the window we have here should not be taken for granted. Next year maybe someone has a terrible career-altering injury, or maybe DWest and Scola's games decline. Danny is probably gone, maybe Lance gets a crazy offer Larry can't match. Maybe the Heat or another team make epic upgrades to their rosters. Maybe we get to the finals this year and get a better matchup then we would ever get in following years.

    Heck maybe THIS year the injury bug hits our core. Look what just happened with DRose in Chicago. You just never know.

    This is the type of season where you leave NOTHING to chance. You cross all your t's and dot all your i's. And despite how great the Pacers are playing right now, we DO have some weaknesses that we've gotten away with so far (a stretch of poor production from Ian, question marks at backup wing, etc).

    So, while it may seem counterintuitive, I think this is a year that you give even MORE scrutiny to your bench depth, and to guys like Danny and Cope. You want to maximize this window and make sure that you are doing every little tiny thing that you possibly can to make this team as good as it can be. Larry says he's still looking to make one more move this season if he sees an opportunity, despite our great start, and I believe him. Doesn't mean it will necessarily happen but he's not taking anything for granted here which is great.

    So while I agree it's silly to spend much time complaining about a team like this, there is nothing wrong at all with enjoying the luxury of looking at your bench and seeing what little tweaks can be made in the rotation or roster to maybe add that little something extra that might just be the difference for 15 minutes of a Finals or ECF game 7. You just never know.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by rabid View Post
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    I care.

    The type of season we're having doesn't come along very often. And the window we have here should not be taken for granted. Next year maybe someone has a terrible career-altering injury, or maybe DWest and Scola's games decline. Danny is probably gone, maybe Lance gets a crazy offer Larry can't match. Maybe the Heat or another team make epic upgrades to their rosters. Maybe we get to the finals this year and get a better matchup then we would ever get in following years.

    Heck maybe THIS year the injury bug hits our core. Look what just happened with DRose in Chicago. You just never know.

    This is the type of season where you leave NOTHING to chance. You cross all your t's and dot all your i's. And despite how great the Pacers are playing right now, we DO have some weaknesses that we've gotten away with so far (a stretch of poor production from Ian, question marks at backup wing, etc).

    So, while it may seem counterintuitive, I think this is a year that you give even MORE scrutiny to your bench depth, and to guys like Danny and Cope. You want to maximize this window and make sure that you are doing every little tiny thing that you possibly can to make this team as good as it can be. Larry says he's still looking to make one more move this season if he sees an opportunity, despite our great start, and I believe him. Doesn't mean it will necessarily happen but he's not taking anything for granted here which is great.

    So while I agree it's silly to spend much time complaining about a team like this, there is nothing wrong at all with enjoying the luxury of looking at your bench and seeing what little tweaks can be made in the rotation or roster to maybe add that little something extra that might just be the difference for 15 minutes of a Finals or ECF game 7. You just never know.

    Fantastic post.

    Complaining about the Cope signing or our backup wings does not mean that you're taking a 20-3 season for granted. Everyone on this forum loves where this team is right now and appreciates the greatness that we have watched this season. But as you say, we're in a position that doesn't come along very often. We must maximize our chances to win a championship RIGHT NOW because there are never any guarantees after this year. Back-up wing is a noticeable weakness on this team, and that's why Bird is saying that he's still looking at making a move.

    I still think that regardless of what happens in the regular season, we're still going to have to be near-perfect to eliminate Miami in a series. Miami has a historically great player who is able to elevate his game to a Jordan-esque level. Therefore, we need to be as perfect as possible to overcome that. None of our weaknesses are going to get in the way of us winning 60+ games, but every little thing matters in a playoff series that will likely go 7 games.

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  18. #311
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Fantastic post.

    Complaining about the Cope signing or our backup wings does not mean that you're taking a 20-3 season for granted. Everyone on this forum loves where this team is right now and appreciates the greatness that we have watched this season. But as you say, we're in a position that doesn't come along very often. We must maximize our chances to win a championship RIGHT NOW because there are never any guarantees after this year. Back-up wing is a noticeable weakness on this team, and that's why Bird is saying that he's still looking at making a move.

    I still think that regardless of what happens in the regular season, we're still going to have to be near-perfect to eliminate Miami in a series. Miami has a historically great player who is able to elevate his game to a Jordan-esque level. Therefore, we need to be as perfect as possible to overcome that. None of our weaknesses are going to get in the way of us winning 60+ games, but every little thing matters in a playoff series that will likely go 7 games.
    I agree. Considering this entire thread is about the bench, I do think it's quite appropriate that Copeland is in the conversation.

    The fact is, we may very well need his services depending on injuries and match ups. Fouls also come into play here. There isn't a single player on this roster not worth some discussion. If that discussion involves some criticism, that comes with the territory. I don't think the criticism has been unfair or invalid. Now I don't believe the title to the thread, but that's not to say the thread title isn't correct or that we should simply stand pat with Scola and CJ because at the moment we feel this team can get it done. Don't we also want to add Granger and get it done more easily?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I dont have a problem with saying we could use an upgrade here or there. But the amount of complaints about Copeland, its comical. This "horrible mistake" isn't horrible at all. Here is a secret. Every NBA bench could be better. Thats why Larry will make a move if the opportunity comes. But its not gonna be for a big name, because we aren't giving up PG, Hibbert, West, Hill, Stephenson, Scola, Granger or Watson. It will be one bench guy for another, mainly a better fit. Who? No idea. I honestly doubt it will even happen because this team is pretty set up, it won't be easy to make a trade since 8 guys are basically off limits at this deadline.

    Copeland is whatever. He's on the end of the bench, making too much money for what he is here. Does that suck? Yeah, it does. And he will probably get moved at some point because of it. Is it going to cost of the championship this year? No. Our starting 5 is fantastic. The bench lead by Scola/Granger/Watson is more than good enough.

    So sorry for not being concerned what-so-ever about someone who hasn't played 1 meaningful minute this season.

    And I'm not playing the injury game because if one of the core guys goes down, it will be incredibly difficult to win the title regardless of who we have coming off the bench.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I'm not that upset with the Cope signing. We grabbed him up before we knew we were going to be able to snatch up Scola.

    Not everyone one the bench is certified starter material on a championship contending team, and I think we have a few on the bench that can be. So I'm OK.

    Scola, Granger (eventually) and you could maybe make a decent case for Watson.
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  22. #314
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Last post on Copeland for me.

    Yes, he is overpaid considering he makes more than CJ and Lance combined. But if he's our worst contract we are in awfully good shape...and probably better off than any other team in the league in that department. Our bench is good enough to get it done (i.e. help rather than hinder the starters to win a championship). Adding Granger @80% of his former self makes us one of the better benches in the league.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Last post on Copeland for me.

    Yes, he is overpaid considering he makes more than CJ and Lance combined. But if he's our worst contract we are in awfully good shape...and probably better off than any other team in the league in that department. Our bench is good enough to get it done (i.e. help rather than hinder the starters to win a championship). Adding Granger @80% of his former self makes us one of the better benches in the league.
    Copeland is not the worse contract DG is, add the 14mil plus the 3mil of Copeland and you have about 17mil not used for anything if we want to win a championship a big part of that money has to be used.

    And expecting 80% DG at this point is really expecting a miracle I mean not even Kobe is 80% right now and I doubt he ever gets there.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Copeland is not the worse contract DG is, add the 14mil plus the 3mil of Copeland and you have about 17mil not used for anything if we want to win a championship a big part of that money has to be used.

    And expecting 80% DG at this point is really expecting a miracle I mean not even Kobe is 80% right now and I doubt he ever gets there.
    Kobe's quite a bit older and had a more significant injury IMO. 80% DG is best-case but it is a realistic outcome this year. The real problem is if you get much less than 80% out of DG, you might as well play OJ or Solo.

    My expectation is that it will go one of two ways. He will come back and make it to 80% OR he will come back and have more problems with his knee. I expect him to come back and have problems but I'm hoping for the former. I'd give him maybe a 30% chance of coming back and being a factor in the playoffs. JMHO.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Our bench is good enough to get it done (i.e. help rather than hinder the starters to win a championship).
    At the end of the day, this is where I'm at as well.

    If we'd had Scola and CJ instead of Tyler and DJ, I firmly believe we'd have beaten Miami last year. Add in Granger (I remain hopeful) to take the minutes that Sam Young and Gerald Green got, and I think it's a no-brainer.

    We can all imagine ways the bench could be better, but that's not the question. The bench is good enough.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Copeland is not the worse contract DG is, add the 14mil plus the 3mil of Copeland and you have about 17mil not used for anything if we want to win a championship a big part of that money has to be used.

    And expecting 80% DG at this point is really expecting a miracle I mean not even Kobe is 80% right now and I doubt he ever gets there.
    The Granger and Kobe injuries are completely different. Of course Kobe isn't 80% right now, he's played like 3 games.

    I don't think it's really expecting a miracle to see a 75-80% Granger off the bench at best.

    He's only going to be adding to the team, we don't need 2009 Danny to win games. We just need a guy who can come off the bench and hit shots and help maintain our leads or help us get back in games. To think about it, we don't even need that. Anything he gives us is just icing on the cake and makes us even better/deeper.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Kobe's quite a bit older and had a more significant injury IMO. 80% DG is best-case but it is a realistic outcome this year. The real problem is if you get much less than 80% out of DG, you might as well play OJ or Solo.

    My expectation is that it will go one of two ways. He will come back and make it to 80% OR he will come back and have more problems with his knee. I expect him to come back and have problems but I'm hoping for the former. I'd give him maybe a 30% chance of coming back and being a factor in the playoffs. JMHO.
    A 65-70% Granger is probably better than Solo right now. Maybe not defensively but probably offensively. Which isn't a bash on Solo, guy is a rook

    But yeah, hopefully Danny doesn't have any setbacks once he starts playing
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Obviously, Scola and Watson are significant upgrades over their predecessors, but those two can't do it alone. Ian can't stay on the floor for more than 3 minutes, OJ and Cope have forgotten how to shoot, and Solo is generally just invisible.

    We really need a healthy Danny and possibly another bench upgrade if we want to go all the way.

    stumbled upon this on a heat message board. prob has no merit but interesting nonetheless.

    http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/1...nt-miami-heat/

    say goodbye to lance if the Pacers make this move. Do not see Rondo and Lance being able to play together at all.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    stumbled upon this on a heat message board. prob has no merit but interesting nonetheless.

    http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/1...nt-miami-heat/

    say goodbye to lance if the Pacers make this move. Do not see Rondo and Lance being able to play together at all.
    make what move? it's not even a rumor, it's some random person talking on the internet.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    stumbled upon this on a heat message board. prob has no merit but interesting nonetheless.

    http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/1...nt-miami-heat/

    say goodbye to lance if the Pacers make this move. Do not see Rondo and Lance being able to play together at all.
    If the Pacers are in win now mode and are willing to delay worrying about next years payroll until this summer comes, it makes some sense.

    But it would seem that the fact that Rondo does not have an expiring contract would make this a near impossibility of happening. Heck, he makes $13M next season. That puts us well into tax territory next season considering Paul George's new contract amount.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Because Danny can hardly guard SF, let alone SG which is normally a smaller and quicker guy. Danny's better at guarding bigger wings that normally play SF.

    As for Copeland guarding the wing, I think that's a mistake too. He's simply not quick enough on defense to guard a wing. That's why he isn't playing and Solomon Hill is playing.
    Copeland is a Granger clone in many ways. Better defending wings in the post, 3pt threat. Danny drives much better than Cope and overall plays better defense, or in simpler terms he is just a better player. But there is a bit of Granger is to Cope as Roy is to Ian.

    If Cope could attack with his dribble or defend out on the perimeter he'd be able to steal those "Granger replacement" minutes from OJ/Solo/Butler, but that's just not his game.


    Still I'd like Frank to find him a role that's more clear. Surely there are some nights and matchups when he could crush people, and it's not like Scola never has problems on PF defense. Even on offense we've seen a lot of PnPop from deep lately, it's not like the team has been able to work through Scola in the low block a ton.



    If anything I think some of the current bench issues (which are drastically lower than last year) have more to do with learning to play together than not being good enough.




    And of course Granger could be the team's Sheed. A mid-season return (which seems very reasonable) at solid levels would really make bench concerns seem silly.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Copeland was indeed supposed to be a good shooter. But he has a 36% FG% in garbage time. The biggest issue is that he's a tweener who cannot guard anyone. I think we paid too much.
    He is not supposed to be a good shooter. He is a good shooter. He is shooting 37.5% from 3 and not all his minutes were garbage time (second game against Chicago, New York, Boston and Philadelphia).

    I agree that he has not learned our defensive scheme yet and thus struggles defensively but offensively he has proven to be far better than the garbage that some guys thought he was.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The guy can't even get playing time over a rookie a second year player and an old guy I'm sorry but Cope sucks.
    A pretty big part of that is that he simply does not play the same position as those guys! Copeland is a PF and he isn't going to see a lot of time over Scola since Scola is awesome. He isn't a SF and thus he isn't going to see compete with OJ, Solo and Rasual for minutes.
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