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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

  1. #226
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And laughing at someone's conclusion without providing a rebuttal, or asking what game they watched without asking what they saw, or extrapolating someone saying "not as bad" into saying they were excellent, is a passive aggressive way of calling people incapable of holding rational conversations - stupid, idiot, troll, homer, hater, whatever you want to use as the term for it. Disrespectful implications abound around here, they make people uncomfortable, and they need to stop.


    This may be the best point made yet about how we feel.


  2. #227

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    . . . FWIW - his PER36 are scary bad. He's being completely inefficient this year.
    Yes, his PER this year is not very good. According to 82games, his PER [per 48] is 6.5. That is terrible.

    But his PER against [per 48] is scary good, 8.9. That is some stellar defense.

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  4. #228

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Why all the talk about salary? That toothpaste is already out of the tube, you can't unring that bell. He is getting paid what he is getting paid. He is a guaranteed contract. Just look at him as our backup center. If he can be replaced by a better player, then we will do that. If he can't, then he will be our guy in May and June. To say that he is getting paid x amount of dollars so he should be doing this, this, and this, is a pointless idea at this point of the season.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    The irony in your post is amazing. You're trying to act like we're overreacting to another poor performance by Mahimi when in reality, you're overreacting to the discussion at hand. From what I've read, no one has called anyone an idiot. Questioning someone's interpretation of a game they watched when Person A says Player A played a good game(particularly defensively) and the vast majority of people that saw Player A said that he stunk up the joint, defense included. How's that offensive to question what game he watched? I'd love to know how he came to the conclusion that Player A did anything well, because shooting %'s dropped when he was in? That's a poor argument at best.

    And the person I quoted originally specifically said, "We must look for different things in Centers. Ian was really good tonight IMO his defense was huge." Sorry, that is not referencing a "team" thing that's referencing Mahimi specifically. Would you argue that Mahimi was good defensively, or "huge" defensively(his words)? That comment is baffling to me.
    It actually is a team thing IMO. Like it or not the way our Cs protect the rim is the key in our defense. Ian was very good at it. He did foul a lot, but as a backup C I would hope you are active and use all the fouls you have. Defense is a team thing, but everybody must collectively do their job for it to work. When Hibbert needed a blow last night we held ground on Miami and that is all we need to do (If we did that in the ECF last year we sweep Miami) Ian was solid in his 12 minutes of work JMO.

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  7. #230

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    You're all smarter than me, so I'll ask smarter folks: why is OJ struggling so much this year? Just not finding his 3pt shot?

    Only ask because he seemed to be a perfectly fine part of the rotation late last year. This year, it's almost painful to watch him out there. His 3 is basically a turnover now, and his defense leaves much to be desired as well.

    Still plenty of time to turn things around, but just curious where he's specifically seeming to struggle.

  8. #231

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    This. And, I suspect we'll see them snoop around a bit more before the deadline. Copeland + Mahimi is around 7.9M in cap - we can easily find a good replacement big with that sort of money. Or even a younger guy like Solomon Hill + Mahimi. Either way, I think Bird is smart enough to realize that Mahimi isn't 1) living up to his contract and 2) giving us good minutes right now.

    What's going to happen to this team when Hibbert's in foul trouble early? Scary thought. Especially if we roll out Scola and West at the same time. Who's going to shotblock and rebound then?
    Trying to imagine a scenario where a team trades for either Mahinmi or Copeland, let alone both...

  9. #232
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Screw stats. Let's break down some tape!
    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Here is a link to a "live box score" with all of the plays from last night:

    http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300311

    Also, here is the play-by-play, again with links to video of each play:

    http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html...311#playbyplay

    You know, if we want to have an "eye based" conversation instead of relying on filthy, lying stats.
    FlavaDave, mad respect for your attempts to make this into a basketball conversation. And props to vnzla for responding with a basketball conversation.
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  11. #233
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    You're all smarter than me, so I'll ask smarter folks: why is OJ struggling so much this year? Just not finding his 3pt shot?

    Only ask because he seemed to be a perfectly fine part of the rotation late last year. This year, it's almost painful to watch him out there. His 3 is basically a turnover now, and his defense leaves much to be desired as well.

    Still plenty of time to turn things around, but just curious where he's specifically seeming to struggle.
    I think some players go through phases, and (as in all sports) consistency (or lack of it) is the biggest reason why a player is good (or not).

    In the example of Gerald Green some people have pointed out that our system just didn't work for him.

    Maybe the increase in minutes for OJ has changed his role in the system enough that it works against him as well. Being one of the expected wings off the bench for significant minutes is a far cry from being a spot guy coming in for specific reasons against the lower end of the opponents' lineups.
    BillS

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  13. #234
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    You're all smarter than me, so I'll ask smarter folks: why is OJ struggling so much this year? Just not finding his 3pt shot?

    Only ask because he seemed to be a perfectly fine part of the rotation late last year. This year, it's almost painful to watch him out there. His 3 is basically a turnover now, and his defense leaves much to be desired as well.

    Still plenty of time to turn things around, but just curious where he's specifically seeming to struggle.
    I think with Orlando it is all about his shot. If he was shooting 33% from three or better no one would be complaining. Likewise, I think if Ian shot 50% or better people wouldn't be complaining about his defense. I think it is an over reliance on using shooting percentage. It makes sense with Orlando since he is supposed to be a shooter, and while he isn't completely worthless defensively, more often than not he is only going to be playing average defense at best. Ian on the other hand isn't on the court for offense. He is out there for defense, so I only really get annoyed with him offensively when he is trying to do too much on his own (i.e. taking jumpers with more than 5 seconds on the shot clock).

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  15. #235
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I saw OJ shooting practice shots yesterday and he missed all his shots, his form looks off, OJ's problem is not only that he can't hit shots but is also that he is not really a good decision maker anytime he has the ball I'm yelling at somebody to take it away from him(same with Ian).

    His D is decent though at least he is not a liability there.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I saw OJ shooting practice shots yesterday and he missed all his shots, his form looks off, OJ's problem is not only that he can't hit shots but is also that he is not really a good decision maker anytime he has the ball I'm yelling at somebody to take it away from him(same with Ian).

    His D is decent though at least he is not a liability there.
    Truth be told, I think our backup wing problem is a bigger issue than our backup center. OJ/Solo just won't cut it. I know your feelings on it, and while mine aren't quite as extreme, they are closer to your end of the spectrum, but the point is: We flat out need Danny Granger.

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  18. #237
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Truth be told, I think our backup wing problem is a bigger issue than our backup center. OJ/Solo just won't cut it. I know your feelings on it, and while mine aren't quite as extreme, they are closer to your end of the spectrum, but the point is: We flat out need Danny Granger.
    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    This is a perimeter league and most of the time we have 1 1/2 players putting up a good game from positions 1-3. If George is off, Lance might be on. Hill is half on. And if he is Watson comes in to chuck. If Hill is off, Watson is aggressive. If Lance is off, Paul is on. But then OJ is so off that it negates what Watson or Hill does.

    Can we get a player to bring some stability? I don't think we need to. I think with more chemistry and time one of these players will be a steady offensive threat. Lance is close. But I have a feeling that Watson or Hill might play with more consistency.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Truth be told, I think our backup wing problem is a bigger issue than our backup center. OJ/Solo just won't cut it. I know your feelings on it, and while mine aren't quite as extreme, they are closer to your end of the spectrum, but the point is: We flat out need Danny Granger.
    The true is that we need anybody that is able to play basketball at a decent level we need DG or whoever, give me Suckleavy over any of the wing backups we have, yes Suckleavy

    By the way where is Kareem Rush when you need him? any way we can sign him?

  20. #239

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Good news is, we have Granger coming back. Unless Dale Davis finds the fountain of youth, we don't have any incoming solutions to the backup big problem.
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    Reason: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content

  21. #240
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The true is that we need anybody that is able to play basketball at a decent level we need DG or whoever, give me Suckleavy over any of the wing backups we have, yes Suckleavy

    By the way where is Kareem Rush when you need him? any way we can sign him?
    Right. We need Granger or another wing that we can get in return for Granger in a trade. But is it absolutely imperative to this team? I don't think so. I think they can win a title with the team we have right now. Our depth on the wing does concern me though, especially if, heaven forbid, PG or Lance misses extended time for any reason.

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  23. #241
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    Good news is, we have Granger coming back. Unless Dale Davis finds the fountain of youth, we don't have any incoming solutions to the backup big problem.
    That's where we disagree. I don't think Ian is a "problem". For what we do and what we want to do, he will be fine. He won't set the world on fire, but we don't need him to.

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  25. #242
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Right. We need Granger or another wing that we can get in return for Granger in a trade. But is it absolutely imperative to this team? I don't think so. I think they can win a title with the team we have right now. Our depth on the wing does concern me though, especially if, heaven forbid, PG or Lance misses extended time for any reason.
    Well Sam Young is a free agent

  26. #243

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    for those he state he "sucks" (not directed at anyone) directed all neutral posters.

    I see several thanked this comment. Please elaborate on whom is an upgrade at 4 M.

    I would deal Cope for the third big.


    ***** why does solo have a deer in headlights look even on the bench. im not saying on the court. he looks lost while sitting on the pine.


    solo may become a legit player, he has athleticsm, but Snell looks legit and got taken two spots ahead. darnit.

    Just b/c a player makes only 4 mil doesn't mean he can suck b/c you can't afford a better upgrade. Excuse me, I mean play poorly.

    What I'm about to say I never thought I would ever say it, BUT Mahimii makes Plumlee look like an Allstar. With Miles getting the PT I said he could get if traded to the right team, he has blossomed. Fooled me in that he's looked better than I thought he could, BUT I'm truly truly happy for him.

    I've not kept up with the NBA this year as I have in the past, but Mahinmi can't be the best b/u 5 in the NBA. What's available I'm not sure, but I would hope a combination of Mahinmi, Copeland, and OJ should garner a better b/u 5.

    I have said for the last couple of years I felt Varejao was the x factor the Pacers needed. Salaries of Mahinmi and Copeland should be close to matching Varejao. Throw in a 2nd plus Stanko as good measure.

    If I get the inclination later, I'll go thru the other rosters to see whatelse might be there.

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  28. #244
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I have said for the last couple of years I felt Varejao was the x factor the Pacers needed. Salaries of Mahinmi and Copeland should be close to matching Varejao. Throw in a 2nd plus Stanko as good measure.
    Which would mean the Pacers would have 7,283,522 to re-sign Lance, and two other players. Unless there's a straight up swap of Ian for another player, or Ian/XX for YY/ZZ it doesn't make financial sense.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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  29. #245

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Iain played damn well tonite imo.

    You must have been watching a different game tonight than I was.



    Come on, now. Standalone posts like this are not going to be put up with in future. Say something more constructive than implying someone who disagrees with you wasn't watching the 'real' game. We already moderated one post with this response, leaving this here so people know what we're talking about.


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  31. #246

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Ian played solid defense. Although he did have some boneheaded plays. He did alot of stuff off the ball really well.

  32. #247

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    He shoots .676 from the free throw line, which is better than one out of two. Could be better, but a quick look through FT% for C he seems to be about average. Roy is one of the better free throw shooters for the C position at 77.6%, which for C who have had at least 20 FTA is ranked 10th. I would say we are lucky that our back-up C shoots that well.

    Sorry, 67% is Foster like. Why settle for happiness at 67%? I was never happy with Foster's FT shooting, why be with Mahinmi?

  33. #248

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Sorry, 67% is Foster like. Why settle for happiness at 67%? I was never happy with Foster's FT shooting, why be with Mahinmi?
    Realistic expectations?

  34. #249
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You must have been watching a different game tonight than I was.

    I was always wondering the same when you were critical of Bird.


    You only quote one part of my comment. Which went onto say there were flaws in his game.

    "damn well" could mean several things. damn well for Hibbert means 25 pts 10 rebounds 5 blocks. damn well for ian is a different measurement. number of variables to factor in. just amusing u snip out the full quote.


    Care to give an estimation on Ian's play or just keep it at condescending.


    While were at it.. whats your evaluation of Bird these days. I know you were one who never approved but were always willing to at least support your assertions which is honorable.

    Still want him run out of the Front Office?

  35. #250

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    I was always wondering the same when you were critical of Bird.


    You only quote one part of my comment. Which went onto say there were flaws in his game.

    "damn well" could mean several things. damn well for Hibbert means 25 pts 10 rebounds 5 blocks. damn well for ian is a different measurement. number of variables to factor in. just amusing u snip out the full quote.


    Care to give an estimation on Ian's play or just keep it at condescending.


    While were at it.. whats your evaluation of Bird these days. I know you were one who never approved but were always willing to at least support your assertions which is honorable.

    Still want him run out of the Front Office?

    I've stated how I feel Bird has done a great job NUMEROUS TIME! I said when Walsh was in control I wanted Bird back, so just drop it. Find something else to try and start an argument.

    I feel Mahinmi game of late has been poor. That's my opinion, and you are more than welcome to disagree with it.

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