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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

  1. #126
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Ian Mahinmi is tied with Dwight Howard and Serge Ibaka, allowing opponents to shoot only 46% at the rim (among players playing at least 8 mins a game and with 5 such attempts against them a game). All three all tied for 16th in the league.

    If we are going to value Scola as a bench offensive specialist, can Mahinmi hold value as a bench defensive specialist? Are we willing to place value on defense?
    That's a re-assuring statistic.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    No, because the eye ball test when watching Mahimi is that he's often times late on rotation. I don't care about these pretty little advanced stats(especially when it's such a small sample size in terms of minutes played) because when he has been on the court lately, teams are still scoring at the rim, he's fouling a lot, and he's not boxing out at all.
    I think we can agree he needs to clean up his technique, that's a pretty specific stat that says that regardless of how ugly or pretty it is, Ian's getting that job done from a season-long perspective. Maybe it was a lower % earlier and his bad play lately has given up a higher % as well?

    I just don't see any wisdom in poo-pooing a defensive FG% stat. That's pretty rock solid as far as bball stats go.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Can't wait for Ian to get his roations down, if he's so late and still holding opponents to such a low shooting percentage. Might be top 5 in the league at that point in rim defense.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I think we can agree he needs to clean up his technique, that's a pretty specific stat that says that regardless of how ugly or pretty it is, Ian's getting that job done from a season-long perspective. Maybe it was a lower % earlier and his bad play lately has given up a higher % as well?

    I just don't see any wisdom in poo-pooing a defensive FG% stat. That's pretty rock solid as far as bball stats go.

    I like Mahnimi as a serviceable backup center but the stat referenced is a little misleading. Ilbaka and D12 both play heavy minutes against starting caliber players. Mahnimi plays 1/3 of the minutes against subs.



    Maybe for perspective who are considered to be the best backup centers in the NBA? Where would Mahnimi rank on this list.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    He can only defend who is in the game, and he's doing well. That's what that % tells us.

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  9. #131

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    While it is true that Mahinmi only has to defend bench players, his job is to defend bench players. While the competition is not as strong, those minutes count just as much as the minutes starters play. For 15 minutes a game, Mahinmi is allowing opponents to shoot only 46%. You can call that an advanced stat, but it is also a factual statement.

    Mahinmi is a bit late on rotations. We can all see that. First of all, Ian looks a little bad in the shadow of Hibbert. Roy has a superhuman ability to anticipate and beat people to the spot. He is the best in the NBA by a good margin. That's how a slow footed, relatively un-athletic guy becomes the best center in the NBA.

    But the other big point is that Mahinmi is there. Being slightly late and fouling is better than conceding baskets because you aren't there at all.

    Anybody read about Derek Jeter and his defense? He won a ton of Gold Gloves, and he has an excellent fielding percentage. But many people insist that he was a subpar defender. Why? His range sucked. He struggled to get close to routine grounders. Scorekeepers wouldn't give you an error if you didn't get a glove on it. Vastly superior players would get credited for errors because they tried to make an outstanding play and bobbled the ball. Who is the better defender, the guy who almost snagged a tough grounder but bobbled it, or the guy who was too slow to get there in the first place?

    Mahinmi is good enough to be there at the point of attack when the ball goes up. That is a lot more than could be said of, say, Lou Amundson. Could Ian clean up his rotations a bit to get even better? Yes. But if he was as good as Hibbert, he would be starting somewhere.

    For the record, among NBA players that average between 12-25 minutes per game and face 5 FGA per game (aka, back up big men who try to protect the rim), Ian Manhimi is 8th.

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  11. #132

    Exclamation Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    While it is true that Mahinmi only has to defend bench players, his job is to defend bench players. While the competition is not as strong, those minutes count just as much as the minutes starters play. For 15 minutes a game, Mahinmi is allowing opponents to shoot only 46%. You can call that an advanced stat, but it is also a factual statement.

    Mahinmi is a bit late on rotations. We can all see that. First of all, Ian looks a little bad in the shadow of Hibbert. Roy has a superhuman ability to anticipate and beat people to the spot. He is the best in the NBA by a good margin. That's how a slow footed, relatively un-athletic guy becomes the best center in the NBA.

    But the other big point is that Mahinmi is there. Being slightly late and fouling is better than conceding baskets because you aren't there at all.

    Anybody read about Derek Jeter and his defense? He won a ton of Gold Gloves, and he has an excellent fielding percentage. But many people insist that he was a subpar defender. Why? His range sucked. He struggled to get close to routine grounders. Scorekeepers wouldn't give you an error if you didn't get a glove on it. Vastly superior players would get credited for errors because they tried to make an outstanding play and bobbled the ball. Who is the better defender, the guy who almost snagged a tough grounder but bobbled it, or the guy who was too slow to get there in the first place?

    Mahinmi is good enough to be there at the point of attack when the ball goes up. That is a lot more than could be said of, say, Lou Amundson. Could Ian clean up his rotations a bit to get even better? Yes. But if he was as good as Hibbert, he would be starting somewhere.

    For the record, among NBA players that average between 12-25 minutes per game and face 5 FGA per game (aka, back up big men who try to protect the rim), Ian Manhimi is 8th.



    Blatche and Varajeo will be free agents come Summer. We should trade for one of them to replace Ian this season/playoff run. Perhaps Solomon and Orlando, third team gives something to Cleveland. Maybe Thorton and Jimmer and Solomon to Cleveland, Varajeo to Indy, Ian, Orlando, Bennett or Tristan Thompson + 2nd rounder to Sac?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    You know somebody is bad when people has to go to the stats to try to prove otherwise, is like calling somebody "a good team defender" when everybody and their mom knows that player sucks on D.

    I could come up with a huge list of better players than Ian but I don't know if that is allowed here anymore.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I could come up with a huge list of better players than Ian but I don't know if that is allowed here anymore.
    I'm running the show around here now, and I will allow you to compile a huge list of players better than Ian. Proceed.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm running the show around here now, and I will allow you to compile a huge list of players better than Ian. Proceed.
    I would also like to see this list. To be fair, any backup center paid above Iain is not in our price range. Were not the Knicks or Lakers.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You know somebody is bad when people has to go to the stats to try to prove otherwise, is like calling somebody "a good team defender" when everybody and their mom knows that player sucks on D.

    I could come up with a huge list of better players than Ian but I don't know if that is allowed here anymore.
    I'm sorry if you think Math is fiction. Lets try out some astrology.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm running the show around here now, and I will allow you to compile a huge list of players better than Ian. Proceed.
    But how to show they are better without using *gasp* stats?
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    I'm sorry if you think Math is fiction. Lets try out some astrology.
    I read that those born under the sign of Sagittarius ( Hibbert and Dwight ) and Virgo ( Ibaka ) good rim protectors.....but those born under the sign of Taurus ( Troy Murphy and David Lee ) can rebound but can't protect the rim.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-10-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    But how to show they are better without using *gasp* stats?
    Yeah, to be honest I really don't understand his whole war against stats thing, but he has been very consistent in his rallying cry against them.

    Seriously though, vnzla, I'm not saying they don't exist, but I would like to see a list of guys who can play the role of backup center better than Ian at a similar price point.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm running the show around here now, and I will allow you to compile a huge list of players better than Ian. Proceed.
    Yeah I'm going to wait for management approval first I'm not taking a long time to make a list so it gets removed for some reason.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, to be honest I really don't understand his whole war against stats thing, but he has been very consistent in his rallying cry against them.

    Seriously though, vnzla, I'm not saying they don't exist, but I would like to see a list of guys who can play the role of backup center better than Ian at a similar price point.
    I am very sure that this discussion has been brought up before. I recall vnzla81 bringing up names like Kenyon Martin?

    But you should be more clear in this question.

    Which Backup Centers are better at protecting the rim and rebounding in a backup role while costing less than $4 mil a year?
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-10-2013 at 04:00 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You know somebody is bad when people has to go to the stats to try to prove otherwise
    If the stats prove that they have a reason to consider them good at something, then they should bring those stats up. If I think someone's good at defense because they do X, I go find statistics having to do with X. The stats may or may not backup my impressions, which is why I would want to look in the first place, to confirm or deny my original opinion.

    Ian is a good rim protector, and that FG% is a good stat to back that up with. It means nothing more than face value. Ian could be a good rim protector and yet be a ****** team defender based off of poor rotations or defensive awareness, but he could still be good at using his size/length/hops to make it difficult to finish at the rim over him. Both can be true.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    You know someone is bad when you use stats to prove they don't?

    I always knew Lebron sucked and don't try and tell me differently with those pesky stats.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I am very sure that this discussion has been brought up before. I recall vnzla81 bringing up names like Kenyon Martin?
    I'm pretty sure even Miles Leonard was on that list.
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah I'm going to wait for management approval first I'm not taking a long time to make a list so it gets removed for some reason.


    You can make the list, just don't imply people are idiots who disagree with it or stupid to use stats to try to argue against it. Don't go off on a tangent, just state your case.



    (non-admin) and it would be very helpful if you would say WHY you think they are better, even if it is simply that they make less money (which I know is one of your consistent points, that getting someone the same for less money is always better).
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm pretty sure even Miles Leonard was on that list.
    Is that Meyers Leonard's evil twin?

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  31. #147

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Screw stats. Let's break down some tape!

    Here are all of the plays in which the Thunder got a) an offensive rebound, or b) a shot attempt within 10 feet in the second quarter of Sunday's game (plays with Ian on the court only):

    Adams REBOUND (Off:2 Def:1)

    Mahinmi makes a switch, forces a pass when his man gets a touch, and makes a rock solid box out when the shot goes up. Solid work.

    Mahinmi S.FOUL (P1.T1)

    Paul George goes over, forcing Mahinmi to cut off a Durant drive. Durant makes the pocket pass, and Scola isn't there. Ian fouls.

    Jackson 1' Driving Layup (4 PTS)

    Mahinmi makes the rotation in plenty of time and gets outside of the restricted area, but Jackson makes a circus layup.

    MISS Jackson 7' Floating Jump Shot

    Mahinmi moves to stop any potential Fisher drive, then gets to the free throw line before Jackson turns the corner. Jackson tries several fakes, but Ian is unmoved. Jackson has to settle for a floater, and he misses.

    Westbrook 9' Turnaround Bank Shot (8 PTS)

    Ian is never a factor as Westbrook fights through Hill for a tough make.

    BONUS: This is outside my criteria, but here is a play that matters:

    Ibaka 18' Jump Shot (8 PTS) (Westbrook 5 AST)

    Mahinmi obviously makes the right decision cutting off Westbrook. West's man cuts to the basket, so he can't help. Wings are in the corners, taking their defenders out of the play. George Hill is off-balance going over the pick. He is the only one who could make this rotation. He can't, Ibaka drills it. Nice play by the Thunder.



    Now, this is faaaaaar from definitive. Mahinmi is rock solid here, but this is just a slice of the season. I just thought people would appreciate a more "eyes" based discussion instead of a "stats" based one.

    Let's get some links to some bad Mahinmi plays going. There are out there, let's talk about them. If veznla posts any links, let me know so I can take him off the no-no list.
    Last edited by FlavaDave; 12-10-2013 at 04:41 PM.

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  33. #148
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    If the stats prove that they have a reason to consider them good at something, then they should bring those stats up. If I think someone's good at defense because they do X, I go find statistics having to do with X. The stats may or may not backup my impressions, which is why I would want to look in the first place, to confirm or deny my original opinion.

    Ian is a good rim protector, and that FG% is a good stat to back that up with. It means nothing more than face value. Ian could be a good rim protector and yet be a ****** team defender based off of poor rotations or defensive awareness, but he could still be good at using his size/length/hops to make it difficult to finish at the rim over him. Both can be true.
    I can tell you that what grind my gears is people using them to tell us that X player really doesn't suck, I mean I went through a whole thread explaining why I thought Copeland was not a good a player and all I got was people to show me how amazing his stats were, same with Gerald Green, Dunleavy and many others, in reality all you have to do is watch the game to see if a player is good or not.

    By the way do you think Vogel is looking at stats when he sits Ian because he is sucking or he is watching the game? Ian has been benched by Vogel so many times in his time here that I already lost the count, the situation is getting so bad that Vogel is playing around with the lineup and is playing Scola/West together because Ian is just flat out sucking, I'm pretty sure he would like to let West rest longer for the playoffs but he can't because Ian is a liability.

    Stats show an small percentage of things that happen on the basketball court and as Mckeyfan said before a lot of those stats are not perfect because they are made by humans(note that I don't want to make this a whole debate about stats I'm just letting you know why stats should not be the tool).

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I can tell you that what grind my gears is people using them to tell us that X player really doesn't suck, I mean I went through a whole thread explaining why I thought Copeland was not a good a player and all I got was people to show me how amazing his stats were, same with Gerald Green, Dunleavy and many others, in reality all you have to do is watch the game to see if a player is good or not.

    By the way do you think Vogel is looking at stats when he sits Ian because he is sucking or he is watching the game? Ian has been benched by Vogel so many times in his time here that I already lost the count, the situation is getting so bad that Vogel is playing around with the lineup and is playing Scola/West together because Ian is just flat out sucking, I'm pretty sure he would like to let West rest longer for the playoffs but he can't because Ian is a liability.

    Stats show an small percentage of things that happen on the basketball court and as Mckeyfan said before a lot of those stats are not perfect because they are made by humans(note that I don't want to make this a whole debate about stats I'm just letting you know why stats should not be the tool).
    Stats are just one of the tools. The eye test is another tool. We all have our own way of judging a player. I will say that I don't know of any team that has 13 all star players on it

    let's keep it to just the point and not about posters



    I on the other hand am just enjoying the ride this season and will continue to do so.
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    We're changing the identity of our basketball team -- dramatically. We're a power post team -- a blood-and-guts, old-school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed and athleticism. We attack the basket. . . . This is the new identity of our team. It was a great effort. I'm very proud of our guys."
    -- Frank Vogel.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I can tell you that what grind my gears is people using them to tell us that X player really doesn't suck, I mean I went through a whole thread explaining why I thought Copeland was not a good a player and all I got was people to show me how amazing his stats were, same with Gerald Green, Dunleavy and many others, in reality all you have to do is watch the game to see if a player is good or not.

    By the way do you think Vogel is looking at stats when he sits Ian because he is sucking or he is watching the game? Ian has been benched by Vogel so many times in his time here that I already lost the count, the situation is getting so bad that Vogel is playing around with the lineup and is playing Scola/West together because Ian is just flat out sucking, I'm pretty sure he would like to let West rest longer for the playoffs but he can't because Ian is a liability.

    Stats show an small percentage of things that happen on the basketball court and as Mckeyfan said before a lot of those stats are not perfect because they are made by humans(note that I don't want to make this a whole debate about stats I'm just letting you know why stats should not be the tool).
    All I'm saying is Ian may or may not 'suck' (and can we define it?), but a basic, no-advanced-math-required measurement of his performance shows he makes it difficult for opponents to score at the rim. Nothing more or less.

    Better to use eyes and stats together.

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