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Thread: The bench still isn't good enough

  1. #101
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Having a 8-9 player rotation in the playoffs would be nice, but it's not necessary.
    8 players is defiantly necessary unless you want someone playing 48 minutes every game. You need a PG, wing, and big, and unless you have a big who can play both PF and C you really need a 9 player rotation.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    8 players is defiantly necessary unless you want someone playing 48 minutes every game. You need a PG, wing, and big, and unless you have a big who can play both PF and C you really need a 9 player rotation.
    And yet, as I keep saying, the Pacers took Miami to the brink last season with 7. So we don't think upgrading DJ to CJ and Tyler to Luis, is worth one game?
    Last edited by Since86; 12-09-2013 at 01:53 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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  4. #103
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    The way I see it, the bench doesn't have to be anything special, it just has to be 'good enough'. With Watson and Scola I think we're flirting with 'good enough', and the 'what ifs' are Danny's availability (I'm convinced he'll play well if he is available) and if Ian can still be a solid rim protector versus Miami. If so... I think we're good. If not... I still think it's close, but uncertain.

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  6. #104
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    OKC just hit shots last night. Kind of like Portland. Some nights that's going to happen. But in the playoffs, I doubt it can happen for a 7 game series. This team is fine as composed. I have no worries.

  7. #105

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Pacers have 8 guys that can play. If they can get away with playing David and Luis at the same time, that is all they will need. If not, Ian will need to play the 15 mpg that Roy needs to rest. Someone else may play some during the season if rest is needed, but come playoff time, these are the guys that will get the min.

  8. #106

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Maybe, but when I read shortening bench rotation I think people are talking about how many players play. A lot of people have this idea that teams in the playoffs only play 7 or 8 players, and that is all. Which just isn't very true at all. Some teams might, but most play at least 9 if not 10 players. The only difference is the 9th/10th player gets 8 minutes in the playoffs instead of 14 minutes in the regular season.
    JMO, but teams that play 10 guys or 9 guys are teams that don't have 8 guys that can play. The longer the bench being used, the less trust the coach has in the players on the bench.

  9. #107
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    YES! It's shortening it. Whether it's replacing ONE bench player with a starter or replacing TWO bench players, you're shortening the amount of time the bench player is on the floor, thus "shortening" their rotation. Go find me a definition of the word "shorten" that tries to differentiate between shortening just a bit and a lot.
    I believe you have your own definition of "shortening rotation".

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I believe you have your own definition of "shortening rotation".
    Right, shortening the bench means playing less players, not playing the same players less.

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  12. #109
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Right, shortening the bench means playing less players, not playing the same players less.
    It means both. You're giving less time to your bench, and more time to your starters. No more, no less. It's hard to understand why we have to argue about accepted definitions of words.

    short·en
    ˈSHôrtn/
    verb
    verb: shorten; 3rd person present: shortens; past tense: shortened; past participle: shortened; gerund or present participle: shortening

    • 1.
      make or become shorter.





    They they play (make) shorter minutes, then their rotation (playing time) has been shortened.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-09-2013 at 03:16 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  13. #110

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    CJ, Ian and Scola give us 8 strong players to build a playoff roster. Granger as the 3rd wing and/or 3rd PF would make us even better. That looks less likely to happen as each day goes by. Vogel pretty much said the long road trip would be used to test the bench rotation, iirc.

  14. #111

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    CJ, Ian and Scola give us 8 strong players to build a playoff roster. Granger as the 3rd wing and/or 3rd PF would make us even better. That looks less likely to happen as each day goes by. Vogel pretty much said the long road trip would be used to test the bench rotation, iirc.
    Ian? He either needs to get it together, or we need to find a replacement. If he's not rotating on defense and protecting the rim, I don't see what value he brings us. Personal Fouls? Check. Turnovers? Check. Offense? Nay. I mean really ...

  15. #112

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    Ian? He either needs to get it together, or we need to find a replacement. If he's not rotating on defense and protecting the rim, I don't see what value he brings us. Personal Fouls? Check. Turnovers? Check. Offense? Nay. I mean really ...
    Ian gives us a low post defender and paint protector. Offensively he has put backs and short jumpers. But mainly he gives the Pacers a big body that can defend its position. Against teams like Memphis, Pacers need the size. If David or Luis could protect the rim better, then the Pacers would not need Ian. But they can't, so they do.

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  17. #113
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    chuck hayes got dealt to Toronto. adding another big is top priority I believe at the trade deadline.

    more and more I like what butler has brought,,, if his defense is solid than he may deserve minutes. I don't think solo is gonna contribute much this year. deer in headlights look.

    Im no scout and I just mentioned hayes cause I always liked his defense in Houston. I don't like promoting trades because for once I really like the entire pacers roster. I know some will spite me for this but I liked what sam young gave us defensively, he certainly never backed down to LeBron. with an upgrade of Luis over Tyler its just an idea.

    I don't think the BnG are in any rush,,, I read somewhere players will be bought out soon during the season and there are some key names possibly? someone more in the know would have to elaborate.


    Adding a third big doesn't seem to difficult. not promoting Fesenko but someone in that mold at least. if Hibbs gets foul trouble I know we go to DWest but still like to add a third big. I have officially given up on Stanko.


    Any reasonable suggestions ????
    Last edited by PacersPride; 12-09-2013 at 10:32 PM.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Is there another rim protector 5 we could possibly acquire without giving much up? Someone who basically does that but not much else, someone we could try if Ian is stinking it up that night?

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    chuck hayes got dealt to Toronto.

    Chuck Hayes.....the epitome of a "WTF, how has he been milking NBA paychecks for almost a decade?" type of player.....

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Chuck Hayes.....the epitome of a "WTF, how has he been milking NBA paychecks for almost a decade?" type of player.....
    again im no scout,, just suggesting. when we played them in Houston he always gave big men difficulites. ivan Johnson from atl tho I kknw he has character issues.

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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Is there another rim protector 5 we could possibly acquire without giving much up? Someone who basically does that but not much else, someone we could try if Ian is stinking it up that night?
    if there is I hope we land said player before mia. I don't have a bad thing to say about Oden except he plays for the heat,,, but I would think the BnG woulda wanna have a big on reserve as such.

    for example, if we matchup with Brooklyn and say they find a groove. Can Mahnimi guard Lopez if needed.


    Really want a bruiser big if we can find one. I wish Fiesty Foster coulda hung on little bit longer. his veteran savvy with our second unit... this team would be complete. Granger would be icing.

  22. #118
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And yet, as I keep saying, the Pacers took Miami to the brink last season with 7. So we don't think upgrading DJ to CJ and Tyler to Luis, is worth one game?
    I think that a big part of why we lost was because the Starting 5 were gassed.

    Having a solid 9 man rotation...which includes CJ, Granger, Scola and Mahinmi...play regular and consistent minutes ( even if it is 12 to 24 minutes a game ) is IMHO critical in the Playoffs.

    Mahinmi is IMHO the Player that would be behind Scola in the Big Man rotation...but he should get at least 12 mpg to offer 6 fouls ( which he excels at ), low-post defense and rim protection ( something that both Scola and West can't provide ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-09-2013 at 11:23 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  23. #119
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Like everyone is else is saying, the only bench player I really have a problem with this year is Ian. He hasn't brought anything to the court this season other than a few good moments. How much time do we give him before we realize he just isn't that good of a player? However, just with the additions of CJ and Scola, the bench is 10x better than it was last year. We are just missing that instant offense guy that can give us 15-20 points every couple of games. Can Danny Granger be that guy? I'm not sure, but I believe he will be a big help when he returns.

  24. #120
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by KingGeorge View Post
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    Like everyone is else is saying, the only bench player I really have a problem with this year is Ian. He hasn't brought anything to the court this season other than a few good moments. How much time do we give him before we realize he just isn't that good of a player? However, just with the additions of CJ and Scola, the bench is 10x better than it was last year. We are just missing that instant offense guy that can give us 15-20 points every couple of games. Can Danny Granger be that guy? I'm not sure, but I believe he will be a big help when he returns.
    At some point in the season...he should return....maybe by Mid-January ( I am VERY PESSIMISTIC that he will return in the next couple of weeks )?

    But give him about 2 months to get his "game legs" back on ( yes, pun intended given his injury ) AFTER he starts playin ( hopefully by March? ) and I think that he can be that guy for 20+ mpg. No matter what....he's an upgrade to OJ/Solo/Copeland.....the question is how much he can give us.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  25. #121

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    .....the question is how much he can give us.
    Danny will be fine. He should be back soon, from the sound of things, and his presence will end whatever weakness exists with the wings.

    Your worry about his legs and fitting in are unnecessary. It will take the usual couple of weeks to get into playing shape. Danny gives the Pacers the last piece of the Power Post Pacers.

  26. #122
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    We can't lose Mahinmi because he's the only guy on the team with championship experience!

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  28. #123

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Ian Mahinmi is tied with Dwight Howard and Serge Ibaka, allowing opponents to shoot only 46% at the rim (among players playing at least 8 mins a game and with 5 such attempts against them a game). All three all tied for 16th in the league.

    If we are going to value Scola as a bench offensive specialist, can Mahinmi hold value as a bench defensive specialist? Are we willing to place value on defense?

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  30. #124
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    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    I think this bench is much better than the last two years. The only knock I have on it is when Lance is playing badly. Scola and Lance have chemistry and if Lance is off so is Scola. Maybe as the year goes on Watson and Scola will generate some chemistry. But what is really hurting the bench is when Lance and OJ are out there together. We need outside scoring and wing low-post defense against the big SFs.

  31. #125

    Default Re: The bench still isn't good enough

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Ian Mahinmi is tied with Dwight Howard and Serge Ibaka, allowing opponents to shoot only 46% at the rim (among players playing at least 8 mins a game and with 5 such attempts against them a game). All three all tied for 16th in the league.

    If we are going to value Scola as a bench offensive specialist, can Mahinmi hold value as a bench defensive specialist? Are we willing to place value on defense?
    No, because the eye ball test when watching Mahimi is that he's often times late on rotation. I don't care about these pretty little advanced stats(especially when it's such a small sample size in terms of minutes played) because when he has been on the court lately, teams are still scoring at the rim, he's fouling a lot, and he's not boxing out at all.

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