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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Mark my words: Lance Stephenson will be the Cam Newton of the NBA.
    Excellent out of this world numbers one game. And a cat turd out of the liter box the next. I think he will always have a bipolar game. And as long as he has a Paul George and David West to bail him out, it will be alright.

    We were tired. This was not going to be easy. If Bosh ever plays like LMA against us (which he is capable of) we will never beat the Heat. Good thing Bosh is so inconsistent.
    I think a big difference between Bosh and LMA is that Aldridge can at lease be effective defensively and on the boards. Bosh has to use all of his energy trying not to be manhandled on the boards and on D which makes his mid range J more inconsistent than usual.

    Like Peck said, it's when Haslem is making that J that we get killed

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    The comment that sold it was Denari as the clock was winding down on PG "He's only 23 and he's going to be a Pacer for a long, long time"

    I could have burst into happy tears.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The Knicks have 6 ABC games. The Pacers have 0. That's all you need to know about how pathetic the NBA is when it comes to marketing teams. The Sunday ABC games are by any measure the NBA's "showcase" games. The Pacers massacred the Knicks in the playoffs last year, yet the NBA feels that the Knicks should have 6 ABC games to our 0. No excuse. I wouldn't be complaining if it was something like a 5 to 3 ratio, but 6 to 0 is awful. The Knicks have done NOTHING to deserve that aside from playing in New York City. No one outside of New York cares about the Knicks. They have absolutely 0 popularity nationally unlike teams like the Lakers, Heat, and Bulls who have large fanbases across the country.

    Can you imagine if the Knicks had started 16-1? ESPN would have created a special channel devoted 100% to the Knicks. Sports Center headquarters would move to Madison Square Garden so that they could witness the miracle up close.
    The Knicks did start last season pretty well 18-5. They did win 5 more games last season than the pacers. They do have a true recognizeable star on their team. Pacers did not especially when the schedule came out in late July.

    So the Pacers beating them 4-2 is a massacre?? (no one ever suggested the Bulls massacred the Pacers when they best us 4-1 in 2011)

    They don't pick the teams willy nilly, through their research they believed the Knicks were a better ratings draw than the pacers. (Knicks are awful now, so things have changed)

    Also keep in mind the TV broadcasters pick the teams they want. Unless it is in their contract with the NBA they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz. If the NBA tells them to show the Utah Jazz, they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz unless they are contractually obligated to do so.

    I suppose I find it understandable that the Knicks were scheduled 6 times and the pacers none.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-03-2013 at 02:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    About all I took from this is that this team is a little vulnerable in back-to-backs on the road against the best in the league. They can improve their conditioning (PG is the only one who's conditioned for it) and take care of this.
    Every team is vulnerable in two on the road back-to-backs 3 time zones away from home against the best in the league. I don't think improving conditioning will do much. This game started after most games for the Pacers end.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    I think this is a game we win if we have Tyler Hansbrough. I am a huge scola fan but sometimes he defense is needed more than the points and last night was that night. His ability to turn around and throw is, is simply amazing.

    Biggest game of the year and lance lays the biggest nugget.

    Dear George Hill, As I said against the clippers. ITS TIME TO FIND THAT DEFENSE you are praised for. Your PNR coverage is horrid and I often times said to my self. Can we just put CJ in please. Also what is with you trying to go hero mode at the end of the game? Your the 4th option and single handily pushed us out of reach with your bad shot selection. I hope you watch the tape today and smack yourself and say. WHAT WAS I THINKING. Your lucky PG was there with his reggie miller impersonation or this would of been a 10-15 point loss. It also amazed me that you passed on the one shot you really needed to take and passed it to a PG who was not ready to either catch it or shoot it.

    Roy Hibbert. Bunnies are Bunnies for a reason. We would of been up a additional 8-10 points at the end of the first if you could hit your shots at the rim. It wasn't defense, you had lopez beat each time. It was just not either having the focus or ability to finish.

    Scola should only be allowed to shoot his jumper from the top of the key.

    Sometimes I forget that Mahimi played for a Title team because last night their back up center that I cannot even named OWNED HIM.

    Someone also tell lance teams are scouting his out of control dribble down the court. It works when you do it 1-2 times a game. Not every time.

    I am a little overly critical on last night because we gave that one away. They were beat and we were ready to move on to the next opponent but then they forgot they still had 15 minutes of basketball to play and just had to stay solid.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    don't look now but the Jazz have won 3 out of 4. Beating the Rockets, Suns and Bulls.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Dear George Hill, As I said against the clippers. ITS TIME TO FIND THAT DEFENSE you are praised for. Your PNR coverage is horrid ....

    I have posted this several times before, but I don't think you can blame Hill for our weakness (if there is one) on our pick and roll coverage. Our scheme is designed so that Roy stays as close to the basket as possible (and that makes sense) but when you do that you give up something and you often make our point guard look bad.

    So I would argue strongly that it is not George Hill's fault at all. There is a reason why teams put Roy in a lot of pick and rolls. That is our biggest defensive weakness.

    if we trapped every pick and roll, our point guards would look terrific, but that would make our weakside forward look like he is lost half the time.

    Botton line is we ask a lot of our point guards in defending the PnR. we have determined it is better to give up a mid range jumper (hopefully contested) than a drive into the lane
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-03-2013 at 02:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    I think this is a game we win if we have Tyler Hansbrough. I am a huge scola fan but sometimes he defense is needed more than the points and last night was that night. His ability to turn around and throw is, is simply amazing.

    Biggest game of the year and lance lays the biggest nugget.

    Dear George Hill, As I said against the clippers. ITS TIME TO FIND THAT DEFENSE you are praised for. Your PNR coverage is horrid and I often times said to my self. Can we just put CJ in please. Also what is with you trying to go hero mode at the end of the game? Your the 4th option and single handily pushed us out of reach with your bad shot selection. I hope you watch the tape today and smack yourself and say. WHAT WAS I THINKING. Your lucky PG was there with his reggie miller impersonation or this would of been a 10-15 point loss. It also amazed me that you passed on the one shot you really needed to take and passed it to a PG who was not ready to either catch it or shoot it.

    Roy Hibbert. Bunnies are Bunnies for a reason. We would of been up a additional 8-10 points at the end of the first if you could hit your shots at the rim. It wasn't defense, you had lopez beat each time. It was just not either having the focus or ability to finish.

    Scola should only be allowed to shoot his jumper from the top of the key.

    Sometimes I forget that Mahimi played for a Title team because last night their back up center that I cannot even named OWNED HIM.

    Someone also tell lance teams are scouting his out of control dribble down the court. It works when you do it 1-2 times a game. Not every time.

    I am a little overly critical on last night because we gave that one away. They were beat and we were ready to move on to the next opponent but then they forgot they still had 15 minutes of basketball to play and just had to stay solid.
    Hansbrough's defense was never great, especially in a team setting.

    George Hill guarded as well as he could, we will always be at a disadvantage against super-quick guards, what George Hill needed to do was be more aggressive on the offensive end, so Lillard would have to work on the defensive end. Also CJ had way worse defense. Not sure why Hill hasn't been aggressive after the Wolves game. Didn't help Hill had to play the most minutes due to Lance foul trouble.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Dear George Hill, As I said against the clippers. ITS TIME TO FIND THAT DEFENSE you are praised for. Your PNR coverage is horrid and I often times said to my self. Can we just put CJ in please. Also what is with you trying to go hero mode at the end of the game? Your the 4th option and single handily pushed us out of reach with your bad shot selection. I hope you watch the tape today and smack yourself and say. WHAT WAS I THINKING. Your lucky PG was there with his reggie miller impersonation or this would of been a 10-15 point loss. It also amazed me that you passed on the one shot you really needed to take and passed it to a PG who was not ready to either catch it or shoot it.
    Who would have thought such a poor defender helped keep John Wall, Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, and Chris Paul under their season scoring averages. A few halfs of slow decision making on the pick & roll doesn't change that. The fact of the matter is that if a PG can knock down a high percentage of mid range J's off the pick and roll time after time, then they're going to score rather well because that is the shot (the most difficult shot in the game mind you) that the pacers are willing to give up. The law of averages says that a guard won't be able to beat our team taking that shot, and in every game this season but two..we've been right.

    Bottom line: lets not overreact to a 4 point loss on the road against a good offensive team.

    Edit: I forgot Hill did not play against CLE
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 12-03-2013 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Knicks did start last season pretty well 18-5. They did win 5 more games last season than the pacers. They do have a true recognizeable star on their team. Pacers did not especially when the schedule came out in late July.

    So the Pacers beating them 4-2 is a massacre?? (no one ever suggested the Bulls massacred the Pacers when they best us 4-1 in 2011)

    They don't pick the teams willy nilly, through their research they believed the Knicks were a better ratings draw than the pacers. (Knicks are awful now, so things have changed)

    Also keep in mind the TV broadcasters pick the teams they want. Unless it is in their contract with the NBA they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz. If the NBA tells them to show the Utah Jazz, they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz unless they are contractually obligated to do so.

    I suppose I find it understandable that the Knicks were scheduled 6 times and the pacers none.
    ...and probably the most important fact: New York is physically a *massive* television market with tons of viewers. More viewers = more money made from advertisements.

    The economics around television don't align in lock step with promoting small markets. About the only chance you'll see Portland or Indiana on ABC, is if they're playing a large market team, or Miami... a 2 time NBA champ.

    Take a look: http://www.nba.com/schedules/national_tv_schedule/ABC/
    Last edited by docpaul; 12-03-2013 at 02:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    It's a self fullfilling prophecy at this point, in that they don't put the smaller markets on TV because they don't get good draws, while announcers for said TV companies like to ***** about how boring small market games are. Neither creates a very good atmosphere of picking people up, which is probably why people aren't picked up. Could you imagine trying to buy a car from someone who keeps telling you all the negative things about the car, and hardly ever venturing into the positives?

    I think people just want good basketball, the front of the jerseys be damned, myself. Doesn't take a fancy degree to figure out that the Knicks were going to be awful. Watching them peter out last year, only to go after older players on their way out, shouldn't really have been all that great of evidence of how wonderful a product they were going to give.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Hansbrough's defense was never great, especially in a team setting.

    George Hill guarded as well as he could, we will always be at a disadvantage against super-quick guards, what George Hill needed to do was be more aggressive on the offensive end, so Lillard would have to work on the defensive end. Also CJ had way worse defense. Not sure why Hill hasn't been aggressive after the Wolves game. Didn't help Hill had to play the most minutes due to Lance foul trouble.

    You might want to go back to last year and rewatch tape and look up his defensive numbers. His points allowed were among the leagues best last year.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Here's a simple fix that could be made right now to add the Pacers to an ABC game...take out the Bulls/Knicks game on April 13th, and put in the OKC/Pacers game instead.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I have posted this several times before, but I don't think you can blame Hill for our weakness (if there is one) on our pick and roll coverage. Our scheme is designed so that Roy stays as close to the basket as possible (and that makes sense) but when you do that you give up something and you often make our point guard look bad.

    So I would argue strongly that it is not George Hill's fault at all. There is a reason why teams put Roy in a lot of pick and rolls. That is our biggest defensive weakness.

    if we trapped every pick and roll, our point guards would look terrific, but that would make our weakside forward look like he is lost half the time.

    Botton line is we ask a lot of our point guards in defending the PnR. we have determined it is better to give up a mid range jumper (hopefully contested) than a drive into the lane

    While I agree with this there are times that Hill can actually go under the screen taking away the drive. It was almost like Chris Paul and Lillard knew once they got their screen they could go all the way to the basket because there was no way hill was catching them. If Chris Paul wasn't fighting a hamstring issue we probably would of lost that game as he missed 3 gimmies that are pretty much his bread and butter.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Who would have thought such a poor defender helped keep John Wall, Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, and Chris Paul under their season scoring averages. A few halfs of slow decision making on the pick & roll doesn't change that. The fact of the matter is that if a PG can knock down a high percentage of mid range J's off the pick and roll time after time, then they're going to score rather well because that is the shot (the most difficult shot in the game mind you) that the pacers are willing to give up. The law of averages says that a guard won't be able to beat our team taking that shot, and in every game this season but two..we've been right.

    Bottom line: lets not overreact to a 4 point loss on the road against a good offensive team.
    Hill did not play against Cleveland. That was CJ Watson that was giving irving fits. Against Chicago he allowed rose to go 6-11 from 3 and 7-16 from the field. Its also known that Chris Paul was nursing a hurt hamstring.

    Is hill a good defensive player? Yes, but he is also the weakness on the pick and roll right now. 2 teams in a row have exploited it and there will be more to come.

    As far as over reacting, I do not overreact. They could of won this game and I still would of pointed out some of the bad things that were done or that have been a trend.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    On a side note, Wes Matthews is earning 6.5 million (if he gets season bonus) this year, so expect Lance to get a similar contract, of around 5 years / $26.84 million.

    http://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-...sley-matthews/

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    You know now that I think about it Wes Matthews was guarding Danny Granger the night Danny went off for 44 vs. the Jazz.



    I bet Matthews hates playing the Pacers.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Knicks did start last season pretty well 18-5. They did win 5 more games last season than the pacers. They do have a true recognizeable star on their team. Pacers did not especially when the schedule came out in late July.

    So the Pacers beating them 4-2 is a massacre?? (no one ever suggested the Bulls massacred the Pacers when they best us 4-1 in 2011)

    They don't pick the teams willy nilly, through their research they believed the Knicks were a better ratings draw than the pacers. (Knicks are awful now, so things have changed)

    Also keep in mind the TV broadcasters pick the teams they want. Unless it is in their contract with the NBA they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz. If the NBA tells them to show the Utah Jazz, they aren't going to show the Utah Jazz unless they are contractually obligated to do so.

    I suppose I find it understandable that the Knicks were scheduled 6 times and the pacers none.
    My guess is that their "research" consisted of them saying, "New York is the largest market in the United States, so let's put them on a lot. The Pacers play in a tiny market.....meh."

    We know that New York didn't earn the 6 ABC games to our 0 through pure basketball merits. Yes, the Pacers-Knicks series was a massacre from the standpoint that the 54 win Knicks believed it was their destiny to play the Heat in the ECF's. It was a way different set of circumstances than our 2011 series with Chicago because we were a 37 win 8 seed who were getting our first playoff experience against the 62 win 1 seed. No one in their right mind would have ever picked the Pacers to win that series. However, plenty of people were expecting the 54 win Knicks to beat the 49 win Pacers. By that context, yes, it was a massacre. The Knicks were never a threat to the Pacers in that series. They had a fourth quarter in Game 2 where they couldn't miss and then were able to take advantage of Hill's absence in Game 5. Outside of that, it was complete and utter domination at the hands of the Pacers.

    The NBA is shoving the Knicks down our throats because for years they have been DESPERATE for that franchise to come back to life. There's no doubt that having a good team in NYC is a nice thing for the NBA. The problem is that unlike the Lakers, Heat, or Bulls, NO ONE across the rest of the country cares about the Knicks. The only people outside of New York who like the Knicks are NY transplants who have moved elsewhere. In most parts of the country, it is generally considered socially unacceptable to be a Knick fan. They haven't won a championship since 1973. They've never had a Jordan-Shaq-Bird-Magic-Kobe-Lebron type star on their team. There is nothing appealing about them aside from the fact that they play in a cool arena in Midtown Manhattan.

    The NBA very much influences the teams that are on national TV. They make the schedules. There would be nothing to put on ABC if the league didn't schedule the games. The league and its TV partners work together to schedule the national games that they think are most appealing. It is like this in every sport.

    ABC appearances by team:

    Knicks - 6
    Heat - 6
    Lakers - 5
    Bulls - 5
    Thunder - 4
    Clippers - 2
    Spurs - 1
    Rockets - 1

    So the defending WCF champion Spurs have one game, the Rockets have one, and the Clippers have two. The rest of the games are split between the same 5 teams: OKC, LAL, Chicago, Miami, NY. It's all so boring and predictable. This is one of many reasons why a league like the NFL runs circles around the NBA. The NFL understands that its league exists beyond 5 teams. If you prove through your play on the field that you're worth putting on prime time, then the NFL gives you SNF and MNF games (see the Colts this year). Meanwhile, the ECF finalist Pacers have 0 ABC games, the WCF finalist Grizz have 0 ABC games, and the WCF champion Spurs have 1 ABC game. Yes, the NBA is very fair and rational when it comes to giving teams those ABC games. We gotta have the Knicks on 6 times because people across the country are just dying to watch that team who got manhandled in the semis!

    Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem if it was a 5 to 3 ratio in favor of the Knicks. But 6 to 0 when the 0 team eliminated the 6 team and then went to Game 7 of the ECF's? Come on, that's bad. If a league's main goal is to deliver a quality product to it's national audience, then there is simply no justifiable reason for putting the Knicks on ABC 6 times to our 0 when we pounded the Knicks and made the Conference Finals.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-03-2013 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Hill did not play against Cleveland. That was CJ Watson that was giving irving fits. Against Chicago he allowed rose to go 6-11 from 3 and 7-16 from the field. Its also known that Chris Paul was nursing a hurt hamstring.

    Is hill a good defensive player? Yes, but he is also the weakness on the pick and roll right now. 2 teams in a row have exploited it and there will be more to come.

    As far as over reacting, I do not overreact. They could of won this game and I still would of pointed out some of the bad things that were done or that have been a trend.
    Good point on the CLE game, as I forgot that was CJ. And it's our gameplan to not let the point guard shoot the 3, and to push him to Roy on the inside. The reason CP3 and Lillard had success was because they hit tough, pull up mid-range J's. That's easily the most difficult shot in the game, and a defense can't stop EVERYTHING--especially against scoring guards.

    I guess when I said don't overreact, I moreso meant don't let the fact that a guard or two scored relatively efficiently make your view of GH's defense waver. It's all a part of the game plan.

    And on a side note: if D.Rose wants to pull 11 3's, you let him pull 11 3's and don't think twice about it. He was hot that one night (that's what happens with good players) but it'd never happen again.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's a self fullfilling prophecy at this point, in that they don't put the smaller markets on TV because they don't get good draws, while announcers for said TV companies like to ***** about how boring small market games are. Neither creates a very good atmosphere of picking people up, which is probably why people aren't picked up. Could you imagine trying to buy a car from someone who keeps telling you all the negative things about the car, and hardly ever venturing into the positives?

    I think people just want good basketball, the front of the jerseys be damned, myself. Doesn't take a fancy degree to figure out that the Knicks were going to be awful. Watching them peter out last year, only to go after older players on their way out, shouldn't really have been all that great of evidence of how wonderful a product they were going to give.
    I share in your frustration. Let's just tease apart the points here though.

    One, announcer bias is just that, announcer bias. Whether they're doing so to indirectly validate the broken model of "big market = lots of national TV time", or whether they are so narrow minded as to actually believe that the best games to watch are those from the big markets is not worth talking about. There are announcers that are more pure basketball purists, as well and don't share this bias.

    Anyone that watched our game last night and didn't feel entertained has screws loose. No matter what team you happen to pull for.

    Second, there's a solution to the self fulfilling prophecy. The presumptions here are that NBA wants to "market" all of it's teams on national TV as that's good for the NBA, and that television networks are incentivized in the current business model to draw as many viewers as possible, and that naturally biases them towards large market games. So, the NBA could try to take control of network game selection by offering discounts in return for gaining leverage in game selection. The NBA could rationalize this as part of the "marketing budget".

    At the end of the day, my gut tells me that the NBA values more immediate profit margins from networks above long term potential blanket team marketing, because the smaller markets (with SA the notable exception) haven't shown consistent success on a team by team basis, and as such it's risky to invest this way as a long term profit generating strategy.
    Last edited by docpaul; 12-03-2013 at 03:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    My guess is that their "research" consisted of them saying, "New York is the largest market in the United States, so let's put them on a lot. The Pacers play in a tiny market.....meh."

    We know that New York didn't earn the 6 ABC games to our 0 through pure basketball merits. Yes, the Pacers-Knicks series was a massacre from the standpoint that the 54 win Knicks believed it was their destiny to play the Heat in the ECF's. It was a way different set of circumstances than our 2011 series with Chicago because we were a 37 win 8 seed who were getting our first playoff experience against the 62 win 1 seed. No one in their right mind would have ever picked the Pacers to win that series. However, plenty of people were expecting the 54 win Knicks to beat the 49 win Pacers. By that context, yes, it was a massacre. The Knicks were never a threat to the Pacers in that series. They had a fourth quarter in Game 2 where they couldn't miss and then were able to take advantage of Hill's absence in Game 5. Outside of that, it was complete and utter domination at the hands of the Pacers.

    The NBA is shoving the Knicks down our throats because for years they have been DESPERATE for that franchise to come back to life. There's no doubt that having a good team in NYC is a nice thing for the NBA. The problem is that unlike the Lakers, Heat, or Bulls, NO ONE across the rest of the country cares about the Knicks. The only people outside of New York who like the Knicks are NY transplants who have moved elsewhere. In most parts of the country, it is generally considered socially unacceptable to be a Knick fan. They haven't won a championship since 1973. They've never had a Jordan-Shaq-Bird-Magic-Kobe-Lebron type star on their team. There is nothing appealing about them aside from the fact that they play in a cool arena in Midtown Manhattan.

    The NBA very much influences the teams that are on national TV. They make the schedules. There would be nothing to put on ABC if the league didn't schedule the games. The league and its TV partners work together to schedule the national games that they think are most appealing. It is like this in every sport.

    ABC appearances by team:

    Knicks - 6
    Heat - 6
    Lakers - 5
    Bulls - 5
    Thunder - 4
    Clippers - 2
    Spurs - 1
    Rockets - 1

    So the defending WCF champion Spurs have one game, the Rockets have one, and the Clippers have two. The rest of the games are split between the same 5 teams: OKC, LAL, Chicago, Miami, NY. It's all so boring and predictable. This is one of many reasons why a league like the NFL runs circles around the NBA. The NFL understands that its league exists beyond 5 teams. If you prove through your play on the field that you're worth putting on prime time, then the NFL gives you SNF and MNF games (see the Colts this year). Meanwhile, the ECF finalist Pacers have 0 ABC games, the WCF finalist Grizz have 0 ABC games, and the WCF champion Spurs have 1 ABC game. Yes, the NBA is very fair and rational when it comes to giving teams those ABC games. We gotta have the Knicks on 6 times because people across the country are just dying to watch that team who got manhandled in the semis!

    Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem if it was a 5 to 3 ratio in favor of the Knicks. But 6 to 0 when the 0 team eliminated the 6 team and then went to Game 7 of the ECF's? Come on, that's bad. If a league's main goal is to deliver a quality product to it's national audience, then there is simply no justifiable reason for putting the Knicks on ABC 6 times to our 0 when we pounded the Knicks and made the Conference Finals.
    I agree with your sentiments completely, but I think you're making a presumption that the NBA currently has a lot of influence over what games ABC shows. Given that ABC is the "buyer", they will naturally maximize their choices towards *viewership* and not *game quality*, as butts in couches is the metric that allows ABC to charge more for ads.

    BTW, in the list above, the "small markets" are only there because they're playing a large market team (NY, LA, Chi) or Miami.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You know now that I think about it Wes Matthews was guarding Danny Granger the night Danny went off for 44 vs. the Jazz.



    I bet Matthews hates playing the Pacers.
    This video gives me the sads. Also the straight up block by Roy at like 4:10 leading to a Granger 3 is some hella good foreshadowing.

    Actually Roy and Danny run some beautiful two man stuff at the start of the 4th before Roy is benched for Troy Murphy LOL...oh JOB
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 12-03-2013 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I agree with your sentiments completely, but I think you're making a presumption that the NBA currently has a lot of influence over what games ABC shows. Given that ABC is the "buyer", they will naturally maximize their choices towards *viewership* and not *game quality*, as butts in couches is the metric that allows ABC to charge more for ads.

    BTW, in the list above, the "small markets" are only there because they're playing a large market team (NY, LA, Chi) or Miami.
    I referenced to Sollozzo in a Colts thread, and had no luck finding it again, but there's an article floating out in the internet universe that talks about professional sports leagues and TV media's relationship, and how the sports leagues have much more influence with them than we realize.

    ABC isn't the driver here, because they have competition that wants to get into the game. The NBA can set it's own goals, and if ABC doesn't want to play ball, they can shop their goals to NBC or CBS or any other network that would kill to have them.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    There's no way that a sports league like the NBA or NFL would sell national broadcasting rights without maintaining some (and likely substantial) input on the decisions of what games will be shown. I'm pretty sure that in the NFL, Goodell and one of his henchmen set the prime time schedule themselves (obviously both CBS and NBC would want a game like Manning returning to Indy, so someone at the league has to make the final call). In the NBA, there has to be someone directly close to the commissioner (if not the commissioner himself at times) who works with ABC/ESPN/TNT to schedule the games. Nationally televised games have a domino effect on the league's popularity, so there's no way that the league would just stand by and let the networks schedule everything themselves.

    ABC can't schedule the Thunder and Knicks to play on Christmas. The league makes the schedule. It's a give and take type of thing.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Catching dysentery on the Oregon Trail

    Ah ha. Remembered I started a thread on it, so it was easy to find that way.

    http://deadspin.com/bottom-line-how-...spn-1189693507

    It gives the ancedotal story about how the NFL got ESPN to cancel Playmakers, which was a fictional show about football players, which was getting good ratings and good feedback from critics.
    What happened last week with League of Denial, a partnership between ESPN and Frontline, was familiar to anyone who remembers the fate of Playmakers. The show was the handiwork of then-executive VP Mark Shapiro, who's the guy quoted up top. It was a strange creature to begin with. One of ESPN's first cracks at a scripted series, it followed the players and coaches of a fictional pro football team, the Cougars, in a league that was never identified as anything other than "The League." And it was, for a basic cable channel with the family sensibilities of a CBS sitcom, daring.

    Players used drugs. They got injured. They slept with each other's girlfriends. They got into fights. They struggled with their weight. They struggled with being gay. They committed crimes. All things real NFL players do and have done.

    The show was critically solid and a commercial hit, drawing ratings better than anything on the network other than Saturday night college football and Sunday night NFL. Naturally, the NFL hated Playmakers as much as everyone else loved it. Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, without having watched an entire episode, called up Disney's then-CEO, Michael Eisner, to complain. Gatorade, a major NFL sponsor, pulled its advertising.

    "The NFL opposed the show," Shapiro would later tell the Los Angeles Times, "and week after week we heard their complaints, objections and concerns."

    In the recent ESPN oral history Those Guys Have All the Fun, Tagliabue stated the terms of the NFL-Bristol relationship with bracing, if sententious, candor. He cited a conversation with Eisner in which the CEO alluded to previous unflattering portrayals of the league, such as in the book North Dallas Forty. Eisner's suggestion was that the NFL had been down this road before.Tagliabue recalled his response:
    North Dallas Forty, are you kidding me? It's got nothing to do with this issue. The author of North Dallas Forty did not have a contractual relationship with the NFL. He was an independent author, a former player, who was not under an obligation to present NFL football, NFL players, NFL teams in a way that makes it a valuable, credible, respected product. You [Disney and ESPN] have that obligation, and I think what you're doing here is directly undercutting that. People want to watch sports when they can respect the athletes. This program leads them to have a view of the athletes that leads them to disrespect the athletes
    In response, ESPN removed Playmakers commercials from its Sunday Night Football broadcasts. The show was allowed to play out its 11-episode order, but after the final episode—"Week 17" aired in November—no one expected it to come back. Despite the ratings, ESPN had much more to lose: It was in negotiations with the NFL to renew its contract for Sunday Night Football, and as the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel put it, ESPN "did not want to risk getting canceled by the NFL."

    The decision to kill the show was made in January, but ESPN waited until after the Super Bowl to announce it. "We didn't want to rain on the NFL's parade," Shapiro told the Los Angeles Times.

    Other networks approached ESPN about picking up the series, but SportsBusiness Daily reported that Bristol summarily turned them down for fear of further upsetting the NFL.

    Shapiro said the league's reaction was "the primary factor" in the show's end, and declared to the New York Times that ''ESPN is intoxicating for the NFL." (Shapiro was still drunk on Playmakers, though. According to Those Guys Have All the Fun, he met with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman before the 2004-05 lockout and proposed a sort of Playmakers for hockey, which could air during a work stoppage. Bettman demurred.)
    Then there is Stern.
    Sometimes, Stern's approach was more akin to working the refs. During the 2008 NBA draft, as Kansas power forward Darrell Arthur plummeted down the board, ESPN's Ric Bucher, citing three front-office sources, reported that an "undisclosed kidney issue" was sandbagging Arthur's prospects. (His agent would later explain that rumor was based on a pre-draft blood test indicating abnormally high levels of creatine; followup bloodwork, however, had determined Arthur's kidneys were "completely normal.")

    Arthur was still on the board when Bucher broke into the draft broadcast with his report. The forward fell to the 27th pick, and then got traded three times over the next few hours, eventually winding up in Memphis. Stern was furious with ESPN, according to a source. The network's reporting was affecting the course of a live event it was televising. The commissioner pulled aside a producer and said as much, their discussion stretching on so long that the announcement of the Boston Celtics' pick at the end of the round was delayed—inexplicably, to viewers at home.

    Stern had reason to believe his bawling out ESPN would work. "Bottom line is that Stern usually got his way," Shapiro said in Those Guys. "He'd scream and scream and we'd cave."

    A year ago, former Orlando Magic coach Stan Van Gundy—who'd once called David Stern the biggest dick in sports—was up for an analyst job on ESPN's NBA Countdown. In Van Gundy's telling, he'd reached an agreement with Bristol, only to have ESPN renege.

    Van Gundy saw Stern's hand at work. "What I find fascinating … you have to give David Stern and the NBA a lot of credit," he said on Dan LeBatard's radio show. "ESPN pays the league, and then the league tells them what to do."

    What cost him his job was the same thing that cost Frontline a high-profile partner in its NFL head-injury investigation. It was the basic absurdity of a mongrel business like ESPN's. "You gotta have no balls whatsoever to pay someone hundreds of millions of dollars," Van Gundy said, "and let them run your business."
    The example I remember watching/listening to myself was the night of the Brawl, and then the following coverage the next day and after, and how vastly different it was. I'll get fitted for my tinfoil cap, if need be, but I fully believe that night was their real reactions, and the rest was contrived to toe the NBA's line.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-03-2013 at 04:13 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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