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Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

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  • #31
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    West made Griffen look like a little boy. Right after the foul on west where Griffen started acting tough is when he really turned it on. He really showed the world last night that Blake Griffen is by no means a superstar.

    I know Hill is a good defender but Paul made him look foolish last night. I know he is the best PG in the league but at some point you have to man up and take a foul against the pick and roll. He got to what ever spot he wanted and made our defense overload which got his team what ever shot they wanted time after time.

    Hibbert was Hibbert.

    PG is falling to in love with this 3pt shot again. He seems to do this time and time again. Especially when he makes a few early, he then seems to find a way to force a few more which make you smack your head and say really?

    Crawford was his normal self. He reminds me alot of a JR Smith where one second you hate him and then the next he gets you back in the game. Then once again you hate him because he cannot turn off chucker mode.

    Scola looked WAY off last night. Even his nice calm collected jumper he has was forced without defense even on him. Not sure what was going on in his head but you could tell something mental was happening.

    I have a question for some of you stat guys. Where do you find their points per 100 possessions on the game or something similar?

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    • #32
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

      Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
      He is simply the greatest free agent signing in Pacer history. I guess that most would say that JO is the greatest acquisition in Pacer history, but you could probably start to make a case for West. JO will always beat him on stats and all star appearances, but West changed entire culture of our team and his arrival immediately made us one of the best teams in the NBA.

      There are obviously lots of reasons for this team being great right now. PG has become a top 5 player in the league. Born Ready has turned into Magic Stephenson. Roy Hibbert is one of the most suffocating post defenders in NBA history. Hill is clutch. Scola has been an awesome bench addition. But to me, this current team's rise to greatness started the day we signed West. No single event changed the attitude and culture of this team more than when we brought in this guy to show the young guys how a true NBA professional acts. We had tons of young talent at that point, but we needed an old vet like West who could show them the ropes. Oh, and he's a pretty damn good basketball player too. He made an argument for himself to be an all star last year with his spectacular play, and I think that his defense just gets better and better.

      Like I said earlier, he just gets this nasty edge to him when we play great teams on the road. I love it and I can't wait to see more of it tonight. I want some more nasty jumpers with some jawing afterwords.
      I'm with you. I am a huge DW fan, and I believe that he is really our go-to guy when it comes right down to it. When the pressure hits, he is there to deliver. (In fact, our loss to Miami last year may be in part because DW just didn't quite have it that night. He's not perfect.)

      But let's get some perspective here: who turned the franchise around? It LITERALLY turned around the day Frank Vogel was named coach. David West wasn't on the team yet.
      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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      • #33
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

        I would put David West in my top 5 favorite Pacers of all time. In fact probably top 3 alltime. I know his stats are down this season, but there is no doubt in my mind that ewhen we need him he'll be there like he was last night and like he has been against the better teams. (not to suggest he is a superstar capable of taking over games like Lebron) but only to suggest that when we really need him to score points most of the time he'll be there.

        No surprise that he had his best game so far this season in the most difficult game we have played yet.

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        • #34
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
          But let's get some perspective here: who turned the franchise around? It LITERALLY turned around the day Frank Vogel was named coach. David West wasn't on the team yet.
          Frank is a great coach, I think the second best coach I have ever seen coach a Pacers team. (Slick was before my time) So I think Frank a great coach. But I would dispute your point that he turned it around on the day he took over. Maybe he started the turnaround then, maybe he got things going in the right direction right away. But he did not turn it around the day he took over or anywhere near that. 20-18 to end the season and then losing 1-4 against the Bulls doesn't indicate that that things were turned around. Although maybe we have a different definition of turned around.

          Having said that Frank is a huge reason we are where we are. So not really disagreeing with you, perhaps just clarifying
          Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-02-2013, 04:58 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
            I'm with you. I am a huge DW fan, and I believe that he is really our go-to guy when it comes right down to it. When the pressure hits, he is there to deliver. (In fact, our loss to Miami last year may be in part because DW just didn't quite have it that night. He's not perfect.)

            But let's get some perspective here: who turned the franchise around? It LITERALLY turned around the day Frank Vogel was named coach. David West wasn't on the team yet.
            Vogel taking over for O'Brien was certainly one of the greatest days in franchise history. It marked the beginning of a new philosophy and era of Pacer basketball. His record with the team that season was 20-18, which was certainly way better than O'Brien's awful winning percentage before getting fired. Then we got beat 4-1 by Chicago. So while Vogel did a fantastic job and changed the entire culture, the team was still basically a .500 team.

            It was the additions of West and Hill in the 2011 off-season that took our team from good to elite. That's when we went from a team who could make the playoffs as a low seed to one that could be expected to make the Conference Finals and challenge for an NBA championship.

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            • #36
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

              Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
              Frank is a great coach, I think the second best coach I have ever seen coach a Pacers team. (Slick was before my time) So I think Frank a great coach. But I would dispute your point that he turned it around on the day he took over. Maybe he started the turnaround then, maybe he got things going in the right direction right away. But he did not turn it around the day he took over or anywhere near that. 20-18 to end the season and then losing 1-4 against the Bulls doesn't indicate that that things were turned around. Although maybe we have a different definition of turned around.

              Having said that Frank is a huge reason we are where we are. So not really disagreeing with you, perhaps just clarifying
              Frank took over a team that was 17-27 and went 20-18. That is a pretty big turnaround with no personnel moves.

              Over 82 games, that would be an improvement from a 32 win team to a 43 win team. or an 11 win improvement.

              The next season with West and Hill they improved to a 52 win pace over the shortened season, or a 9 win improvement.

              In other words, they were both huge steps to get to where we are today.
              Last edited by kent beckley; 12-02-2013, 05:09 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                Yeah, but Vogel made them a competitive .500 team with Hansbrough and McBob at power forward. A painfully raw PG at the two, a pretty painfully raw Hibbert at the 5 and Darren Collison. That's pretty impressive to me. That team offensively a lot of times was basically Danny Granger and 4 dudes.


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                • #38
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                  All of this "top PF in the NBA" talk is a little short on Kevin Love.



                  Also, the "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?" game-winner pose is the best one in sports right now.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                    I like Kevin Love as much as the next guy but that team has really petered out after their fast start.


                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                      They are just a terrible road team that has played a lot of road games recently.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                        Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                        Yeah, but Vogel made them a competitive .500 team with Hansbrough and McBob at power forward. A painfully raw PG at the two, a pretty painfully raw Hibbert at the 5 and Darren Collison. That's pretty impressive to me. That team offensively a lot of times was basically Danny Granger and 4 dudes.
                        DG being good? YOU MOCK PACERS DIGEST.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                          Originally posted by Cactus Jax View Post
                          Oh and I really hope that Blake Griffin liked David West throwing a low blow during his interview w/ Brooke after the game saying Aldridge was the best PF in the NBA. (Not sure if that's really true either, it'll be a moot point in a year or 2 with Anthony Davis)
                          Kevin loves sends his regards
                          Impossible Is Nothing

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                          • #43
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                            Frank is a great coach, I think the second best coach I have ever seen coach a Pacers team. (Slick was before my time) So I think Frank a great coach. But I would dispute your point that he turned it around on the day he took over. Maybe he started the turnaround then, maybe he got things going in the right direction right away. But he did not turn it around the day he took over or anywhere near that. 20-18 to end the season and then losing 1-4 against the Bulls doesn't indicate that that things were turned around. Although maybe we have a different definition of turned around.

                            Having said that Frank is a huge reason we are where we are. So not really disagreeing with you, perhaps just clarifying
                            Yea I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Perhaps as you said maybe it's what we consider turning it around. Obviously you consider a turn around to be about being a contender and I respect that. However I consider taking us off of the treadmill to nowhere to be the first step in the turn around. In fact I consider it to be the most important step.

                            Sure West is a leader but at the end of the day he isn't the coach. He doesn't set the plays, make the rotations or design the defense. That's all coaching. The fact that David West totally has bought in and is leading the team is a testament to both his willingness and abilities however it is equally a testament to Frank Vogel being legitimate (there's that word again) because you are not going to be able to B.S. a player like West and West would not buy into something he didn't believe in.

                            I also think West is vital to our club and I'm going to go ahead and say that he is the best NBA power forward we have ever had (Big Mac is from a different era) but to me him being here would not matter nearly as much if we were coached by a "system coach" who makes players adapt to their style and can't/won't fit the style to match the players.

                            BTW using losing 1-4 to the Bulls in the playoffs (on paper it looks bad but that series was much closer believe me) to explain how this wasn't turn around is about like those who would use the fact that Danny Granger didn't play much on team USA as an excuse to tell us why he was a bad player. In other words it doesn't work.

                            The same team with the same players made the playoffs when Satan in all of his years here never once sniffed the playoffs and this team was well below the playoff threshold when Frank took over.

                            No, the more I think about it hiring Frank Vogel may go down as one of the single most significant acts in Pacers history.


                            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                            • #44
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                              Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                              Vogel taking over for O'Brien was certainly one of the greatest days in franchise history. It marked the beginning of a new philosophy and era of Pacer basketball.
                              There's the Vogel era... and the O'Brien error...
                              Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                              ------

                              "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                              -John Wooden

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                              • #45
                                Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

                                Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                                I like Kevin Love as much as the next guy but that team has really petered out after their fast start.
                                Originally posted by PacersHomer View Post
                                They are just a terrible road team that has played a lot of road games recently.
                                Yeah, games like their loss to OKC last night are schedule losses... Minnesota has already had six back-to-backs, while OKC has had only one. Wolves have also played the most games in the NBA as of last night (tied with Boston). I think their play will definitely come right back up once their schedule eases a bit... and once LRMAM and Chase Budinger become regular contributors. I think early-season Minnesota was more indicative of their quality than this recent rough stretch.

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