Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 65 of 65

Thread: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

  1. #51
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,454

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    BTW using losing 1-4 to the Bulls in the playoffs (on paper it looks bad but that series was much closer believe me) to explain how this wasn't turn around is about like those who would use the fact that Danny Granger didn't play much on team USA as an excuse to tell us why he was a bad player. In other words it doesn't work.

    The same team with the same players made the playoffs when Satan in all of his years here never once sniffed the playoffs and this team was well below the playoff threshold when Frank took over.

    No, the more I think about it hiring Frank Vogel may go down as one of the single most significant acts in Pacers history.

    I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to marginalize what we did at the end of the 10-11 season and the playoff series against Chicago. It was clearly a turning period for the franchise and it felt like heaven after the disastrous O'Brien years. Vogel finishing the season 20-18 after the team started out 17-27 was certainly a phenomenal coaching job. There's no doubt that Vogel taking over is one of the most important moments in franchise history.

    That being said, regardless of how great of a coach Vogel is, that team needed more playmakers if they were ever going to become a true contender. We desperately needed more players who could make clutch plays because our weakness against Chicago was that we simply couldn't close out. Well, Bird went out and got Vogel those players when he added West and Hill.

    At the end of the day, debating the importance of Vogel vs. West is like debating a Ferrari vs. a Lamborghini. The bottom line is that virtually everything this franchise has done from 08-present has turned out incredibly well. We've witnessed the complete rebirth of a franchise and fanbase.

    Maybe the most important move was Bird taking complete control in 2008 and finally having the freedom to mold a team 100% his way.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sollozzo For This Useful Post:


  3. #52
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,709

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yea I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Perhaps as you said maybe it's what we consider turning it around. Obviously you consider a turn around to be about being a contender and I respect that. However I consider taking us off of the treadmill to nowhere to be the first step in the turn around. In fact I consider it to be the most important step.

    Sure West is a leader but at the end of the day he isn't the coach. He doesn't set the plays, make the rotations or design the defense. That's all coaching. The fact that David West totally has bought in and is leading the team is a testament to both his willingness and abilities however it is equally a testament to Frank Vogel being legitimate (there's that word again) because you are not going to be able to B.S. a player like West and West would not buy into something he didn't believe in.

    I also think West is vital to our club and I'm going to go ahead and say that he is the best NBA power forward we have ever had (Big Mac is from a different era) but to me him being here would not matter nearly as much if we were coached by a "system coach" who makes players adapt to their style and can't/won't fit the style to match the players.

    BTW using losing 1-4 to the Bulls in the playoffs (on paper it looks bad but that series was much closer believe me) to explain how this wasn't turn around is about like those who would use the fact that Danny Granger didn't play much on team USA as an excuse to tell us why he was a bad player. In other words it doesn't work.

    The same team with the same players made the playoffs when Satan in all of his years here never once sniffed the playoffs and this team was well below the playoff threshold when Frank took over.

    No, the more I think about it hiring Frank Vogel may go down as one of the single most significant acts in Pacers history.
    I am taking the long view of things and looking at it in general terms.

    I suppose I bristle at the notion that the team when a Frank took over and things turned around as if the team was ready to take off at that moment. Significantly different team now.

    Trust me I am in no way being critical of Frank, just suggesting the growth of Roy, PG, additions of Hill, a West and growth of lance along with frank is why the change

  4. #53
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Garrett, IN
    Posts
    9,034
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I am taking the long view of things and looking at it in general terms.

    I suppose I bristle at the notion that the team when a Frank took over and things turned around as if the team was ready to take off at that moment. Significantly different team now.

    Trust me I am in no way being critical of Frank, just suggesting the growth of Roy, PG, additions of Hill, a West and growth of lance along with frank is why the change
    I defended JOB a lot. And I was wrong. The emphasis that Vogel put on crashing the offensive boards and being positive TURNED THINGS AROUND!!!!

  5. #54
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    St Paul MN
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm not an old timer, but the next best free agent I can think of is Byron Scott. The Pacers don't exactly have a long track record of signing good free agents. West completely dwarfs everyone else.
    It is probably Alex English but as good as he was in his short time with the Pacers they gave up on the idea and traded him for a worn out and overpaid George McGinnis.

    Scott was very good but I think a pretty strong argument could be made for Heywoode Workman who was signed in the same year.

  6. #55
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    St Paul MN
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    I don't think you can separate Vogel from West when it comes to the culture of this team. Vogel sets the tone & expectation. West gives it validity & probably enforces it.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Downtown Bang! For This Useful Post:


  8. #56
    Redemption. docpaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Noblesville, IN
    Posts
    1,685

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    PG is falling to in love with this 3pt shot again. He seems to do this time and time again. Especially when he makes a few early, he then seems to find a way to force a few more which make you smack your head and say reallly?
    I'd need to watch the tape again, but it felt like the Clips "gave" Paul looks a few times at the corner three... and he's right to take those high value shots when they are there.

    Sent from my LG-G2 using Tapatalk

  9. #57
    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    1,333

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'd need to watch the tape again, but it felt like the Clips "gave" Paul looks a few times at the corner three... and he's right to take those high value shots when they are there.

    Sent from my LG-G2 using Tapatalk

    Late in the game when your trying to slow down their offense you do not shoot quick three point shots. They were on a run and continued to get points off our poor shot selection. We have a 7'2 monster for a reason, during that stretch of the game is when he is most valuable.

  10. #58
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,841

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Scott was very good but I think a pretty strong argument could be made for Heywoode Workman who was signed in the same year.
    I forgot about English. Heywoode Workman though? Look I loved the guy but he was not a big time free agent.


    Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

  11. #59
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,841

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Byron was similar to David in many ways. He brought a confidence and playoff experience that was sorely lacking. I hated losing him in the expansion draft.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

  12. #60
    Formerly PacerFanInAZ Cactus Jax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Tucson AZ
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,051
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    "I’m probably going to jinx us but I just have the feeling that we are going to lay waste to the Blazers."

    JINX!!!! j/k Paul George tried his best though...
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

  13. #61
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    St Paul MN
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I forgot about English. Heywoode Workman though? Look I loved the guy but he was not a big time free agent.


    Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
    Scott was certainly the bigger name. Workman started many games in 94 as well as all the playoff games and was a vital & mandatory piece in a very good defense in both 94 & 95. Scott hit big shots, played solid bench minutes and brought a little Laker swagger/winning time culture to the picture. Both were key cogs in the development of that Pacer team (a lot of it intangibles) but given the stage of Scott's career I'm not convinced the overall impact on those teams was that much greater.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 12-03-2013 at 06:45 AM.

  14. #62
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    54
    Posts
    11,457

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yeah, games like their loss to OKC last night are schedule losses... Minnesota has already had six back-to-backs, while OKC has had only one. Wolves have also played the most games in the NBA as of last night (tied with Boston). I think their play will definitely come right back up once their schedule eases a bit... and once LRMAM and Chase Budinger become regular contributors. I think early-season Minnesota was more indicative of their quality than this recent rough stretch.
    In comparison, the Pacers have only had 6 back-to-backs and have lost all but four of them. Compared to the Wolves' 19 games the Pacers have played just 18. Anyone using the phrase "schedule loss" for the Pacers will be ridiculed.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  15. #63
    Member spreedom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2,536

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In comparison, the Pacers have only had 6 back-to-backs and have lost all but four of them. Compared to the Wolves' 19 games the Pacers have played just 18. Anyone using the phrase "schedule loss" for the Pacers will be ridiculed.

    The Pacers are also a much better team than the Timberwolves. Still a total schedule loss, going into OKC on a back-to-back when they're finishing a six-game home stand.

  16. #64
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,058

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I defended JOB a lot. And I was wrong. The emphasis that Vogel put on crashing the offensive boards and being positive TURNED THINGS AROUND!!!!
    AND defense.

    AND taking high percentage shots--something he explicitly and publicly said, risking exposing his differences with JOB.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


  18. #65
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,058

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Trust me I am in no way being critical of Frank, just suggesting the growth of Roy, PG, additions of Hill, a West and growth of lance along with frank is why the change
    But those guys didn't suddenly improve the day Frank was hired. Their record did.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •