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Thread: Week 12: @ Cardinals

  1. #276
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    In this day and age I don't know a single back who rocks out with a terrible line.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    In this day and age I don't know a single back who is worth a first round pick.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    In this day and age I don't know a single back who rocks out with a terrible line.
    I asked someone to come up with an example of a good RB behind a weak OL about 4-5 weeks ago, and no one has taken up the task of providing one. I brought up Ray Rice, as proof of how fast a good RB can fall into horrible statistics hole when his line gets changed. The guy still is averaging 2.9 YPC, while being insistant he is healthy. Pretty big downfall going from 4.4ypc to 2.9ypc in a year, without any changes other than who's blocking for him.
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  5. #279
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    In this day and age I don't know a single back who is worth a first round pick.
    The only position that isn't worthy of a 1st round pick is kicker. Other than that, that's the most asinine stance ever to take on a first round pick. I spose you wouldn't like a TE in the first, either? I wouldn't mind me some Jimmy Graham, or Gronk. I'd absolutely pay a 1st rounder for a guy like that.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I asked someone to come up with an example of a good RB behind a weak OL about 4-5 weeks ago, and no one has taken up the task of providing one. I brought up Ray Rice, as proof of how fast a good RB can fall into horrible statistics hole when his line gets changed. The guy still is averaging 2.9 YPC, while being insistant he is healthy. Pretty big downfall going from 4.4ypc to 2.9ypc in a year, without any changes other than who's blocking for him.
    Yea, he was also a fairly insignificant part of a SB champion, too. Running backs are so dime-a-dozen. No impact at all. I mean, if a RB can't get any yards behind a terrible line, then what good are they? Not worth a first-rounder, that's for sure.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  7. #281

    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Aren't we just beating a dead horse here? They both suck.

    I know that Wayne was a big loss. But I'm going to argue that losing Allen was just as big a loss for the offense. His blocking was the best among our receiving options and he had terrific hands and got open in the field. I think he'd have been as important a security blanket as Wayne was. I think if we at least had him we could survive what's going on.

    That's why I feel Pep has less to work with this year than Arians did last year. Yeah, everyone's a year older. Doesn't matter when Luck still doesn't have time to throw the ball (he's getting hit more than he was last year) and our best WRs are either in KC (Avery...though he isn't great) or are on IR. I mean, we were throwing to David Reed for crying out loud.

    And Pep should be punched in the face for taking TY out of the game.
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  9. #282

    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I asked someone to come up with an example of a good RB behind a weak OL about 4-5 weeks ago, and no one has taken up the task of providing one. I brought up Ray Rice, as proof of how fast a good RB can fall into horrible statistics hole when his line gets changed. The guy still is averaging 2.9 YPC, while being insistant he is healthy. Pretty big downfall going from 4.4ypc to 2.9ypc in a year, without any changes other than who's blocking for him.
    In the past, Matt Forte was such an example.

    This year, Lamar Miller has shown flashes. Rashad Jennings since taking over. Marshawn Lynch has been running behind a bad offensive line most of the season due to injuries. Andre Brown has been productive.

    I think it's very hard for a RB to have a great season behind a bad offensive line, but above average RB's should be able to have isolated games where they produce. Even Rice, who I don't believe is healthy and as you mention has been historically awful, has had one game where he was really good. Richardson's best game has been 20 for 60 and a TD. He's had 1 game with the Colts where he averaged more than 3.1 per carry.

    And at least in Rice's case his backup who was really good last year has fallen right with him. In Richardson's case, the RB's before him produced and the RB backing him up is also producing when he gets touches.

    Don't get me wrong-if you had to ask which one would I want to improve in the offseason, it would be the line first. They've been worse than Richardson, and they're also more important than a RB. I'm guessing probably most of the Richardson "bashers" would say the same thing. The reason Richardson has gotten most of the criticism is because there was hope for him because of the price paid for him and his draft status, while everybody has given up on the line already.

    Richardson's season last year was what I would hope a good RB behind a bad offensive line would do. It wasn't good whatsoever, but there was some legitimate production in there. This year has been so much worse than that. I don't think you can judge him to be a terrible RB because of his tough situation, but great seems pretty out of the question. I would still put him well down the list of needs though. This teams first two offensive needs are an interior lineman and a possession receiver.

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  11. #283
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Frank Gore also doesn't run behind the best offensive line nor McCoy or Lacy. The last one has been a revelation for me as he is so tough and good in yards after contact. Hell I have even seen Peterson being jammed a lot this season but didn't stop him cause he is THE man.
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    The Eagles O-Line is pretty damn good. Jason Peters alone is one of the best run blockers in the league. Last year with all the injuries to the line McCoy suffered, as well with his own injury.

    But McCoy is also just a beast. I remember watching him in high school, just destroying our defense. I'm sure a lot of my buddies on the football team feel a lot better about themselves seeing him do the same to NFL defenses.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Seattle's offensive line is dealing with some injuries, but they also got some guys back healthy before others went down.
    GB has multiple Pro Bowlers.
    Oakland's line has produced for their RBs, going back to McFadden.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Is there any site that tracks sacks, hurries, and knockdowns for QBs? I bet the Colts are at the bottom of each on that list too.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  15. #287
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Let me rephrase. I have seen some games of the aforementioned players' teams but not a lot of them in order to have a definitive opinion like I do with Colts.

    So from what I have seen, although you can't brand them as bad more often than not, they weren't also dominant. They had some good plays and also some bad. My point was that the respective RB's even though they got hit behind or at the line of scrimmage or even when there was no obvious gap to take advantage of, they managed to get something out of it. Be it a good gain or even a 1st down. Some Lacy plays this season have been unreal.
    Last edited by Johanvil; 11-27-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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  16. #288
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    I don't think any of their lines are anywhere close to the crappiness that is the Colts line right now. No way.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    My point was that the respective RB's even though they got hit behind or at the line of scrimmage or even when there was no obvious gap to take advantage of, they managed to get something out of it.
    Trent gets something out of it too. What you really mean is that he doesn't get enough. The difference is that they get touched behind the line at a relatively small pace compared to the Colts. Seriously though, this next game, watch the direction of the line push. Good offensive lines will go forward. They might not put guys 4-5 yds off the line, but their making forward progress and digging in. The Colts line doesn't get any push. They're going backwards. They are trying to hold ground.

    I bet we could count on one or two hands the number of times a linemen has gotten to the second level for the Colts this year.
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    I've found stats on sacks and hits, but not hurries. The Colts actually are down at the bottom of sacks allowed, but are #2 in QB hits. Lucks ability to stay upright, and shed would be tacklers is really paying dividends in the sack department.

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...ualified=false
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I don't think any of their lines are anywhere close to the crappiness that is the Colts line right now. No way.
    *sigh* That's not what I said.

    As for Lacy, 2 plays of him that I loved last Sunday.





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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    I like that last one. The one where he had to fight like hell to get......3 yards.

    On a serious note though, that second play looks a lot like a normal Colts running play.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  22. #293
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I like that last one. The one where he had to fight like hell to get......3 yards.

    On a serious note though, that second play looks a lot like a normal Colts running play.
    On a serious note, on that second .gif Richardson would have fallen on his *** at the 1st tackle it hit him. 3 yards behind the line.

    As for the 1st, interior pushed back, RB hit behind the line yet he manages a big gain. So this reminds me a lot of Colts running play bar the Richardson big gain of course.

    To be done with it, I have never said the line is good. Yes I know the line is pushed back cause the Guards and center are eaten alive most of the time and try to hold ground. Bottom line is you put other RB's (like the ones we mentioned above) in Richardson's place behind this line and they will have AT LEAST ONE good game where they will produce as Cubs231721 said. They will show better vision and decisiveness to hit the hole even if it will be there rarely or seemingly nowhere to be found. They will have quicker change of direction.

    But then they wouldn't be running out of the same formation, right? Right? Like Ballard and Bradshaw who never ever run with Havili and the extra TE to block for them.

    Sollozo quoted another guy's post from another forum about a certain play from the game against Arizona. Sums Trent up really well.
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  23. #294
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I like that last one. The one where he had to fight like hell to get......3 yards.o

    On a serious note though, that second play looks a lot like a normal Colts running play.
    And their line gave no ground. He got to the line of scrimmage before his first contact. We never see that. He ran into his own guy.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-27-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    On a serious note, on that second .gif Richardson would have fallen on his *** at the 1st tackle it hit him. 3 yards behind the line.

    As for the 1st, interior pushed back, RB hit behind the line yet he manages a big gain. So this reminds me a lot of Colts running play bar the Richardson big gain of course.
    If you honestly think Trent goes down on first contact, then there's nothing left to say.
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    The only position that isn't worthy of a 1st round pick is kicker. Other than that, that's the most asinine stance ever to take on a first round pick. I spose you wouldn't like a TE in the first, either? I wouldn't mind me some Jimmy Graham, or Gronk. I'd absolutely pay a 1st rounder for a guy like that.
    Why? I mean the entire crux of your argument in support of TRich is that no running back could run behind our horrid offensive line. If a running back's production is so dependent on the strength of your offensive line, then why spend a first round pick on a position like that?

    The NFL is a passing league now. Tight ends? Absolutely worth a first round pick. I don't really see why you would assume I wouldn't want a TE in the first round.

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  27. #297
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Already gone over this with you. Our line wasn't near as bad when we got him.
    And as you already know, I disagree that running backs are worthless.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-29-2013 at 05:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Already gone over this with you. Our line wasn't near as bad when we got him.
    And as you already know, I disagree that running backs are worthless.
    Okay, so you call my stance "asinine" and then instead of making actual points you just tell me you disagree.

    Also, I never said running backs are worthless. I just don't think they are worth first round picks.

  29. #299
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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Because your entire premise is "the league is a passing league", which is not only massively cliche, but also what you've been claiming forever and it's not a new argument. So why do it again? To make a blanket statement that a position is not worth a first round pick is just stupid.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Week 12: @ Cardinals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Because your entire premise is "the league is a passing league", which is not only massively cliche, but also what you've been claiming forever and it's not a new argument. So why do it again? To make a blanket statement that a position is not worth a first round statement is just stupid.
    What exactly is incorrect about that premise? It's not like I am the first person to make that statement, and I think it's pretty widely accepted at this point that with the rule changes and evolution of the game that throwing the ball is the direction the league (and football in general) is heading. That's not to totally discount running games, because it will always have a place in the league, but the days of having one workhorse running back are over. Splitting carries, designed quarterback runs, and spreading the field have largely taken the place of these smashmouth, run it down your throat attacks of yesteryear. If I'm wrong, give me reasons, show me stats, say something besides I'm "stupid" or "asinine." That's not an argument. That's what a 9 year old says when you back them into a corner.

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