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Thread: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

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    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Excellent write up. Lets enjoy this season, because I think it is either hoping for George to forgo the higher extension (ala Westbrook) and use the stretch provision on Cope/Ian, or lose Scola. Danny is gone, unless he signs for minimum.

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson

    Numbers from the SportVU data-tracking cameras provided exclusively to Grantland bear this out. Stephenson is dribbling the ball about 125 times per game this season, up from a paltry 65.5 bounces last season, according to the data. His per-game time of possession has jumped from about 90 seconds to nearly three minutes, and he's touching the ball about twice as often. He has assisted on nearly 29 percent of Indiana's baskets while on the floor, roughly equivalent to last season's marks for a bunch of high-quality starting point guards with strong secondary distributors around them and/or score-first duties — Stephen Curry, Ty Lawson, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, and others. Stephenson is also using up more possessions for his own shots, and yet his turnover rate hasn't budged at all.
    Remember: Stephenson has never even sniffed a league-average Player Efficiency Rating, and he barely played over the first two years of his career. This is not James Harden coming off his rookie contract.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    If PG passes on the raise like Westbrook it could help out with 3 more million salary to give to Lance. PG is a humble guy I wouldn't be surprised if he did it.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    "That's right: Lance Stephenson has slowed down, on purpose, on some fast breaks this season."


    hahaha
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Anyone who's smart on the salary cap situation, what are some ways the Pacers could do trades with their bench players, either Scola or Cope to free up cap space? Is that a possibility?
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    ............allowing the other members of Indy's human torture chamber to do their jobs.
    Nice.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Remember the last 'star' the Pacers had who took less money than was available to him to help the team? Oh yeah, Granger! I don't know why Westbrook passed on his Max raise, but I don't expect PG to do the same. PG has a finite amount of years to make the money he has the chance to make. Giving part of it back is not really in his best interest. Having said that however, if the Pacers win or even make the Finals, it might be worth the money to PG to keep the core of the team together. Bosh, James and Wade may have changed the way young players look at the money versus wins thing.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    Remember the last 'star' the Pacers had who took less money than was available to him to help the team? Oh yeah, Granger! I don't know why Westbrook passed on his Max raise, but I don't expect PG to do the same. PG has a finite amount of years to make the money he has the chance to make. Giving part of it back is not really in his best interest. Having said that however, if the Pacers win or even make the Finals, it might be worth the money to PG to keep the core of the team together. Bosh, James and Wade may have changed the way young players look at the money versus wins thing.
    He and his agent will have to do some sort of cost-benefit. It's a lot of money to leave on the table though.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    If PG passes on the raise like Westbrook it could help out with 3 more million salary to give to Lance. PG is a humble guy I wouldn't be surprised if he did it.
    I think Lowe's wording was off here. Westbrook passed on a raise by negotiating a contract that does not allow for the supermax. Paul G from what we know from media reports, negotiated an extension deal that was above the 25% max, but below the absolute max (30%). I'm pretty sure that contract can't be negotiated downwards now.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Anyone who's smart on the salary cap situation, what are some ways the Pacers could do trades with their bench players, either Scola or Cope to free up cap space? Is that a possibility?
    There are always ways. The question is what it would cost. Scola has a mostly unguaranteed deal next year, so getting his money off the books is relatively easy. Copeland's cap hit can be removed by trading him for an expiring this year, or to a team with cap space next year.

    I think Lowe is understating Stephenson's importance to the Pacers. Myself, I'm convinced he's at minimum the third most important Pacer going forward. Letting him walk next summer shouldn't even be a consideration.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Trading copeland to a team under the cap would be the easiest way to move salary, I cant believe people are suggesting dumping Scola!

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Trading copeland to a team under the cap would be the easiest way to move salary, I cant believe people are suggesting dumping Scola!
    I would have to agree with you. It would sure be nice to see what Copeland can actually do with this team and some
    minutes.
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    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Trading copeland to a team under the cap would be the easiest way to move salary, I cant believe people are suggesting dumping Scola!
    It's not like anybody WANTS to dump Scola, but right now it's just the easiest way to free up more money for Lance if need be. Giving Copeland away for free sounds like no big deal, but trades are never easy.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think Lowe's wording was off here. Westbrook passed on a raise by negotiating a contract that does not allow for the supermax. Paul G from what we know from media reports, negotiated an extension deal that was above the 25% max, but below the absolute max (30%). I'm pretty sure that contract can't be negotiated downwards now.
    That's how I understand it too. If George makes 1 of the All-NBA teams, he's getting the 30% max. And it can't be negotiated downward now.
    UncleBuck:

    "See how stupid those fans sound complaining about the officials. That is one reason why I hate when Pacers fans complain about the refs - does not come across well at all, no matter the merit. "

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    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    That's how I understand it too. If George makes 1 of the All-NBA teams, he's getting the 30% max. And it can't be negotiated downward now.
    The only thing we know for certain is he got over 25%, we won't know how much over until the contract "leaks" next year.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Can you only use the stretch provision once per season?

    If not, the Pacers could theoretically waive both Copeland and Mahinmi under that provision, which would make the cap hit for their contracts be spread over 3 years.

    $2.3mil per season instead of $7mil. That would give us an extra ~$4.7mil to work with.

    Keep Scola on the books for his full $4.9 million, and you're up to just about $70 million with a couple of spots left to fill. (Both scenarios assume the Pacers keep Donald Sloan and Orlando Johnson on minimum-level deals.) In related news, the league expects the luxury tax line for 2014-15 to come in around $75.7 million.
    That would get us down to $65.3mil for 9 players. If Lance got ~8mil per year then you would have to fill out the roster with vet min guys, but I think you could get it done.

    If you only use the stretch provision on one of them, hopefully you can find a taker for a trade for the other one without taking back any salary.

    It seems like it would be do-able if Lance is attainable in the 7-10mil range. Given how much Larry like Lance, I think he'll find a way to make it happen unless Lance gets a truly crazy offer.
    Last edited by skyfire; 11-14-2013 at 07:20 PM.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    A George Hill trade sounds more and more like it could be in play.

    I'd rather have C.J. playing alongside Lance and PG then having half the bench making 750,000 a year.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    A George Hill trade sounds more and more like it could be in play.

    I'd rather have C.J. playing alongside Lance and PG then having half the bench making 750,000 a year.
    I honestly think that's going to be on the table. I'm sure the forum will begin our lynching soon.

    There's no way that Bird lets Lance go, unless someone is offering something ridiculous, like a max contract or something of that ilk.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    I've been saying since we signed Hill that his contract would come back to bite us. I like Hill, but I just think he gets paid too much.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Its not like the whole bench would be min guys. You'd still have CJ, OJ, Solo, Scola. If you could find a passable big for cheap to replace Mahinmi's minutes I wouldn't have a problem with the 3rd stringers being min guys.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    I'm not really too worried about it. Worst case scenario, we get in a bind and have to offer Copeland and a first round pick for some team to take his salary. I mean if we can move Gerald Green with multiple years on his contract, I'm pretty sure we can move Copeland if we actually had to. I'd rather just keep Copeland around though at least for this season. I think he'll play a significant role for us at some point, and this year, we're all in.

  29. #20

    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Hill's production in the starting unit is replaceable, while Lance's is not. Hopefully, we can find a taker for Copeland if we must make a deal. If not, it's time to cut ties with G Hill.

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  31. #21
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    If we had to sacrifice one of Hill or West, who would you choose?

    FWIW, I don't think we'll actually have to go that far.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    If we had to sacrifice one of Hill or West, who would you choose?

    FWIW, I don't think we'll actually have to go that far.
    Is that a question? Hill, easily.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    George Hill is very underappreciated around these parts.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    I think this deals with an unintended consequence of the new luxury tax rates. The initial $5 million over the tax (which is a $1.50 to $1 ratio) actually hurts small market teams more than big market teams. If it was a $1 to $1 ratio for the first $5 million over, the Pacers may be willing to go a little into the luxury tax to re-sign Stephenson.
    UncleBuck:

    "See how stupid those fans sound complaining about the officials. That is one reason why I hate when Pacers fans complain about the refs - does not come across well at all, no matter the merit. "

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance's past, present, and future.

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Is that a question? Hill, easily.
    Well yes. West is older and has the larger contract. Overall I think his impact is still greater than Hill's, but not enough to make a clear decision.

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